Replaced by teen girls

Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by Lilla_My, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Lilla_My

    Lilla_My Fapstronaut

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    Thank you, Jennica, for your encouragement. I hesitated for the longest time, but now I have started CBT therapy. However, the greatest gift is all the insight I've gotten from all of you on this forum.
     
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  2. Lilla_My

    Lilla_My Fapstronaut

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    Thank you for your kind and insightful words, Nagual. I'm happy you are figthing your problems with great success and I sincerely hope you continue to do so.
     
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  3. NF4L

    NF4L Fapstronaut

    @Lilla_My Thank you for sharing your story with us. I am so deeply sorry you are going through this with your husband, I can identify with P abuse changing a person into someone and something they aren't deep down inside. I know because I was a lot like your husband to my own wife. I took my shame, guilt, stresses, worries, fears and directed them towards her through frustration, resentments, contempt, and stonewalling. I blamed her for everything, so she wasn't allowed to do anything right, even if she didn't do anything, and if that was the case why was she NOT doing anything. I was a selfish asshole. I was a dick. I belittled her. I insulted her body image. I ignored her. I diminished her self worth. I made her feel stupid, unwanted, used, and abused.
    I did all these things and more in my pursuit of my porn addiction. I did this to her despite the fact that she was my lover, my best friend, my true companion, my soul mate, and my greatest cheerleader.
    Know that exactly like her, none of this behavior is your fault. I know my wife is beautiful, amazing, and intelligent. So despite what he has said or done, you are also beautiful, amazing, and intelligent as well. His actions and words are not a reflection of you, but of himself.
    I cannot tell you what it will take for your husband to realize he is an addict, that he has a problem, and that he needs to change. We all call it Rock Bottom. Hopefully Boundaries and Consequences help, to help him see and realize only he can make that decision. It must be his, even if you help him see it. For me it took years to really see it, and that was after decades of abuse. Much like your husband before I found sobriety it was teens everywhere, anywhere, and all the time. It could be work, bathroom, the bus, a bus stop, dinner, or breakfast. All. The. Time.
    When my wife was able to confront me with my secret and special stash that she discovered. I knew our marriage was probably over. I tried to find out how much she saw, or what it was she thought she found. I still was looking for a way out, to gaslight her, or find some probable and believable lie to tell her. She was smart, and clever, and realized exactly what it was and how it got there. She wasn't stupid. I was sick and tired of looking at P all the time, and she only offered me support if I was able to make changes, be honest with her, and be committed to her. She was understanding and unwavering. Strong and comforting.
    Here I am over 500 days from that moment. Not divorced. With a relationship stronger than ever. Dedicated to sobriety. Dedicated to her. Dedicated to us.
    I think you share her super power, much like many women out there and on NoFap. That superpower is Hope.
    I hope your husband can see his addiction for what it is before your superpower fades. I wish you much strength and understanding for the journey ahead. I don't envy you. Again, I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through. I won't blame you for walking away like so many others have stated you should do. There is a limit to the abuse you are willing to take before you put your foot down, and before you walk away. I also know there is a chance for a positive outcome despite what everyone else says. It may require you to leave before that can happen.
    Whatever you do, we're all here to help.
     
  4. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Outstanding Response!
     
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  5. Lilla_My

    Lilla_My Fapstronaut

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    I can not thank you enough for your response, it filled me not only with enlightenment but also with hope. Your kind feedback and inside knowledge of this issue is exactly what I needed. Reading your story, I'm curious to know what your wife did to break the pattern with you, to make you realize that things had to change. Did she had an intervention? Did she give you an ultimatum? Or did she throw you out?

    I honestly thought that seeing how absolutely crushed I was would deter him from this behaviour, and it possibly has, but I also know that it will come a day when my feelings won't hold him back ("what she doesn't know will not hurt her anyway"). Probably, that day is already here. The hard part is that I don't know how much I have to "police" him. I'm not comfortable with spying or checking on him constantly or forcing him to spend his time with me so he won't get into trouble. But I also know that I'm dealing with a man who never share his feelings about anything with anyone. If for example, he would start to get involved with extremely shameful or illegal material, and feeling an inability to stop this, he would not reach out to anyone for help. When he got caught this time, he told me that he thought of leaving me instantly without any explanation, because never hearing from me again would be easier than admitting to what he had done. His fear instills fear in me, because no man is an island, and feeling that autonomous is so unnecessary.
     
  6. For me...my wife confronted me 2 or 3 times over our 20 year marriage -- the last time (June 1, 2017) is the first time I reached out to anyone for help ... And it was how recovery truly started for me.... ONLY when I reached out.
     
  7. NF4L

    NF4L Fapstronaut

    She did neither of these. Perhaps there was an ultimatum in there that I needed to change. But fundamentally she offered her support. It required me to see that I had a problem and admit it. The secret had to come out, the lying had to stop. Perhaps in your husbands case the stonewalling or avoidance is what he has to overcome. Your challenge to have him find recovery on his own is to break through that. I was similar in that regard and was an expert at clamming up, or walking away. I can say what gave me the tools to recover with my wife was utilizing what we learned by working through the book,” the 7 principles of making marriage work” published by the gottman institute. We worked on this 4 years before, after I disclosed about a one night stand I had. She knew I had a P problem then, but I was unwilling to see it or admit it.
     
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  8. One comment about ultimatums: for me, 2 DDay's (August 2016) .. my wife gave me an ultimatum, "Fix your porn problem or I'm leaving you."

    Sadly, I did not seek any outside help--I did stop PM'ing for over 3 months...I thought I was HEALED/FIXED! But my wife knew that I wasn't...the simple fact that I did _not_ reach out for help and thought I could fix it on my own--she knew my stoppage was temporary..and she was right.

    So ultimatums are good...but my personal opinion is you have to look at how the PA reacts:
    1. do they accept the fact that they are a porn addict
    2. do they reach out for help? this online forum is a good start? best case scenario is reaching out to another person they trust and ask for help (a good friend, counselor, pastor, someone)

    If a PA does not do those two things..I question if their recovery is real -- even if they THINK it is real...it may not be.
     
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  9. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    For people like me, give me an ultimatum, and I'll do the exact opposite come hell or high water. And it has cost me dearly. That's why I make it clear to steer clear of ultimatums. When you state that you cannot/will not tolerate something in your relationship, that isn't an ultimatum. That is a boundary. An ultimatum is "You will seek counseling". A Boundary is "I need to see you actively engaged in your recovery" and then a potential consequence for that is "You sleep in a separate room" until such time you can seek help. Apathy is a huge problem for men in recovery.
     
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  10. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Hey @Lilla_My

    What a horrible thing you have been though :(

    I’m familiar with many kinds of twisted abuse, so I want to say to you that you are beautiful and worthy of love. It’s the abuse that can make us feel ugly and worthless.

    I haven’t read everything here, I’ve only really read your initial story, so if my words confirm what others have been saying then let it be a confirmation to you. From what I see of what you said, this man has issues that extend far beyond pornography. Look at the way he initially treated you, let’s take his word that he wasn’t in PMO then. Even back then, his love for you was abusive. You had to joke about what should have been a blessedly special intimacy as him performing a chore. That, to me, is a big sign saying there was something wrong even before porn entered the mix.

    Let me say this another way, it’ll hurt to hear but it’ll help. You know what you should have heard?

    Baby, I love being with you.

    You are so hot, I can hardly concentrate on work right now. I think I may need to take a long lunch today, don’t even bother making me a sandwich...we aren’t going to waste a moment eating.

    I can’t believe how lucky I am to be with a woman like you in bed, I never thought I could be THIS happy. You’re like a drug, and I can’t get enough of you.

    You catch my drift? It’s so much like you had to joke as you did because you were missing this part of romance. As a man, there is NO WAY I would not do everything I could to make sure my beloved wife knew deeply just how much I love her, in every way possible. I say this because it is the way of love, men should love like this (in their own way ofc) but it always should happen in a way where the other person FEELS loved. DEEPLY — every part of them..

    The absence of that and the replacement of it with jokes, bless you for trying, are so telling to me of something gone horribly wrong with this man. I don’t judge him, for all I know he could have been molested as a child. I’ve been through similar and know how those experiences made my own love cold.

    But let me make you a contrast. Because I knew how messed up I was, I stayed away from women because I knew that I would only hurt them. I spent years making sure my horrible past was redeemed before ever considering marrying a woman. You shouldn’t have to suffer for our pain. You suffer enough to give birth.

    He probably just wasn’t blessed with the same self-awareness I was. Maybe he was, and just didn’t have the strength to resist you. Whatever the case may be, I don’t judge the man...but the reality he has left you with needs a wise answer to address.

    I humbly submit to you that you need some time apart so that you can see through eyes unclouded by abuse. Consider doing therapeutic things in this time. Have someone guide you if needed. When you’re feeling better, you’ll be able to make better decisions. Please go and take care of yourself?

    Here’s to you :)
     
  11. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    That is a rebellious character flaw and the problem lies in the person being given the ultimatum, not the person giving the ultimatum. It's not the ultimatum that is the issue, but the hard, stubborn heart of the one resisting.

    I fully agree that boundaries are necessary, but sometimes, so are ultimatums. What the person being given the ultimatum does with that is on them. In either case, they choose the consequences and have full responsibility for the outcome.
     
  12. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    Yup.
     
  13. Mordobarn

    Mordobarn Fapstronaut

    This is true, and present in many people. I know that I've suffered from this knee-jerk reaction in the past.

    Sometimes, the origin can be a rebellion against an over-strict upbringing; in some cases, it's a false pride (in my experience, usually but not always held my men), whereby admitting that someone else has a better idea is perceived (by the holder) as a dangerous sign of weakness. There are, of course, other possible reasons.

    When a person experiences that rebellious feeling, the correct approach is to ask yourself, "Where does this feeling originate, and what can I do about it instead?"

    I understand the reason why @GhostWriter avoids ultimatums: When using an ultimatum, some partners will just up and leave instead of co-operating and healing. Maybe that's what's needed sometimes, but other times it's better to get the partner's co-operation.
    OK @GhostWriter , here's an ultimatum for you. Do not, under any circumstances, figure out your rebellious nature and replace it with a more helpful approach :D
     
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  14. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Consequences, Ultimatums, and Control
    I deliberately make the distinction between consequences and ultimatums when I talk about Boundaries & Consequences because so often, the Betrayed Partner will cite that their Partner will perceive it as an ultimatum. It is important that this distinction be made because the consequence is to protect her safety, security, and sanity in her environment. It places responsibility and ownership squarely in the Betrayer's court where it belongs. There are very many individuals with this so called "character flaw", that it sill WILL NOT work whereas a consequence will. So the question becomes, are you trying to get them to modify their behavior or are you trying to control their behavior? Which one do you think has any reasonable chance of working?

    Often times, the relationship between two people is just toxic. That doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship between two partners, but rather individuals you end up having interactions with for one reason or another as well.

    One therapeutic activity in addiction treatment centers around the world surrounds something called "Realities". You, for reasons only you can understand, have a preconceived notion and perception of the other person that has a "reality" about you. and you about them. And when they have anything to say to you, whether it is constructive or not, you are either OPEN or CLOSED to anything, any feedback, they may have to say to you. It starts out with "Are you OPEN"? If the answer is "NO", then that's the end of the conversation. And it doesn't really matter why. It only matters that you aren't receptive to it from them. If I'm OPEN to what you have to say, then I will embrace it and respond to it because I respect your opinion. If I am CLOSED to what you have to say, then I don't even want to hear it from you even if it is in my best interest. The same exact idea could be conveyed to you from an entirely different person and you completely embrace it.

    This isn't about a "character flaw". This is a "reality" for the individual on the receiving end of whatever it is you have to say to that individual and is part of every community group meeting at every addiction treatment center in the world. If you are toxic to the other person, and this happens so frequently in a community, it just doesn't make any difference what you have to say to them, right, wrong, or indifferent. There is no interest in anything you have to say. And if you persist, it only serves to reinforce their perception of you and create more toxicity between the two of you. That's why it is always the best policy to just ignore them so as not to allow their toxicity to impact you. And of course, if they do persist in spite of ignoring them, it exposes a "character flaw" of their own like a raw nerve, the likes of which a root canal would sound appealing. It is with them, that subtle hints DO NOT work, direct hints DO NOT work, and I'm not even altogether sure that a blatant "STFU, I'm not interested in anything you have to say" will work, for they can't help themselves. It also doesn't necessarily mean you won't be be receptive to them in the future.
    Yeah, I'll take it under advisement. I've already figured it out thank you very much. For example, as you can see, I am OPEN to your feedback. As for some of the others? Pffft! Anything they have to say ain't gonna be much. I'm not interested in anything they have to say.
     
  15. Lilla_My

    Lilla_My Fapstronaut

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    Thank you so much for your response. I'm pretty certain that pornography was a big part of his life even before I entered it, but I truly felt loved and cared of then; I felt his interest in me physically and emotionally. With time this faded away and what's left is just pain and abandonment. The last part you wrote, about being away and see his abuse more clearly, is really resonating with me. I have been away from him two days now (he doesn't even bother to call) and maybe this is what I need. Again, thanks for your kind words.
     
  16. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Let me just give you a huge LOL. You pretend that I dont exist by not responding to me directly, yet you continue to respond directly to things I say just not directly to me by not quoting me or hitting reply to my posts. That is not ignoring me. It's so funny that a litte ol' SO of a PA has struck such a raw nerve with you because I am not vulnerable enough for you to patronize me or boss me around. Instead, I have put you in your place when you have let your real self loose, in pure temper and anger. But you conveniently delete those after, so that no one can go back and see you for who you really are. Like the one where you berated a mod for simply moving your thread to a different forum or when you blatantly attacked me on Father's Day after gently trying to give you the other side of the coin when a daughter feels she has no choice but to cut off communication with her father. Yes, I have screenshots of that one.

    So dont sit here and get holier than thou and act like you ignore me when you very clearly don't, considering you do respond to nearly everything I say. I also know about what you say about me in private messages because people tell me.

    I have supported things you said, hit the like button many times, and often just said nothing whether in favor or against. I speak up when I feel something needs to be said, regardless of who says it. You just happen to say a whole hell of a lot more than anyone else. I don't follow your posts around, it's just that the relationship forums are pretty much the only forums I go to, except for the private spouses group and the occasional journal. It also just so happens that you write novels on 80% of the threads here.

    For the record, someone messaged me about what I wrote to you above about the character flaw and my response was that I feel that way no matter who says it and I would have responded as such. It's an immature response and the person being given the ultimatum is fully responsible for any consequence to their response, immature or otherwise.

    Also for the record, I completely agree with you that boundaries and consequences are the first line of defense and are for protection. I think we have always agreed on that - and many other things. Ultimatums should be used as a last resort and sparingly. But sometimes they must be.

    All that said, either ignore me or don't. I dont care. I will respond to you and anyone else as I see fit. You act so threatened by a little wifey and yet keep trying to pretend you aren't. You keep telling yourself and everyone else that you ignore me and dont actually care about the things I say and keep trying to prove it by responding to others about what I've said, but not actually to me. We see right through you.

    Enjoy your day, GW.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  17. Lilla_My

    Lilla_My Fapstronaut

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    As you so eloquently pointed out, this is a big issue. I've tried ultimatums so many times ("I'll leave if you don't change") and here I am, not leaving, with him behaving worse than ever. Its always me that comes crawling back. I'm sick of him, and now sick of me too.
     
  18. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Aye. Right now I’m out alone in the woods, similarly taking my time and space to be away from abuse. I’m on week #3 and feeling better and better everyday, but you know...it still feels like I have further to go.

    Just saying, take whatever time you need. No shame in that! You can even be like, “Hey look, I know a full grown man who needed longer than I” :)

    I’m so happy that you’re taking this leap, may you find yourself again...the you who shines majestically beneath all the hurt. You’re still there, still bright & beautiful. You’re just under a heavy blanket is all ;) come on out when you feel ready, until then we’re here to help you however we can.
     
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  19. Check out the book The Betrayal Bond.
     
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  20. Mordobarn

    Mordobarn Fapstronaut

    Never give an ultimatum unless you are absolutely committed to carrying it through. If you give an ultimatum ("This time, I'm really leaving if you do it again"), be sure that you already have in place a plan, a place to go, and the wherewithal to cope. Someone as loyal as you needs a man who is equally loyal, so don't go crawling back.
     

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