marriage life and 20 years worth of Porn

Lol no alternative facts on NoFap please.

 

Kinda funny that we split hairs when we all know for sure Jesus wouldn’t encourage any of us to look at porn.

 

I've repeatedly and explicitly condemned porn and yet people keep saying I'm defending it. Whatever helps them feel more righteous, I guess.

 

This is an interesting thread to read. And it seems that people have very strong opinions about the morality of the OPs SO, and indeed the OP himself. It's intriguing to see that even members of this community, who I imagine joined this site as they acknowledged that porn and masterbation have caused issues in their lives are so black and white in their opinions. Life is definitely a myriad of colours, things being black and white or right or wrong, it's just not as simple as that. Even if things are seen as 'wrong', is one persons wrong doing worse than another persons wrong doing? Is there a scale of wrong? Does it work on a points system?

We all mess up in life at times, and if you're able to work through those bad times as a couple then you'll come out the other side much stronger. Regardless of the fuck up. Rather than saying 'You messed up I can never be with you again...' think back to the good and happy times and the reason you got together the first time round and whether it's worth fighting for.

So. I applaud both the OP and his SO at recognising their issues and for committing themselves to working through it. And wishing them all the best.

 

Here's the thing...
We can all argue til we are blue in the face (honestly pointless, it's the f***ing internet, y'all)
but the only definition of cheating and betrayal or even cyber infidelity that matters to any one of us, is whoever is on the other side of our beds.

Everyone else's opinion, is just nice conversations in passing.

Our opinions don't matter to ourselves, it's our partners who define it for our side of the relationship and we who define it for theirs.

It's where and when boundaries are discussed within each individual relationship that that comes to a middle.
And because everyone has a unique relationship, we Can Not define This for anyone else.

We can talk about it.
We can share our story.
We can share our experiences.
We can share our thoughts.
It's not our decision.

 

And I agree with forks... @sheep4ryan
Good luck

 

Agreed. I, personally, do not equate my husband's severe porn addiction during our 20+ years of marriage the same as if he went out and physically cheated with someone else. My arguing here (and other places) that it is, is because of exactly what you said, @Kenzi. Just because this is not my experience doesn't mean it is the same way for everyone and I respect that others feel completely different.

I still think it is a betrayal of many different kinds, but that is a discussion for another day and another thread.

 

I agree and that’s why I kept saying if your partner is fine with it and does not consider it cheating that’s all you need to know our feelings or opinions don’t matter it’s your partners. It’s not about if PMO is cheating it’s about the fact that whatever you call it you are hurting your partner. And what I was hearing was the purpose in making the distinction was to make the SO out to be over reacting and diminish how much pain the PA caused. We SOs hear that a lot and so it hits a nerve. One person is not right and one person wrong in a relationship. But many see admitting to being wrong as losing and allowing someone to have power over you its uncomfortable. You need to be able to see things from your partners point of view and not just close your ears and say my opinion is fact and yours does not matter.

 

This is the bottom line. Lying about it / hiding.

My husband knew how I felt about porn and strip clubs for a man in a marriage. I was clear. He chose to lie/deceive. Then he took it into "real life" b/c that what happens often with addictions --- they accelerate.

Now in hind site, he knows what he did was a tremendous betrayal (porn and prostitutes, objectifying women - all of it). He says he physically and emotionally feels SO MUCH BETTER now that he is clean. He couldn't think rationally about any of this until he was clean a long time, and his brain re-wired.

 

There are different types of affairs. Some are just inappropriate emotional affairs, which can happen with "just friends" who cross the line and rely on another person while not reaching out for that type of intimate connection with a spouse. Other affairs are strict physical sex w/o emotional connection - just banging in a motel room, or anonymous hook-ups, or receiving sexual gratification by a prostitute when the man lays on a massage table - fee for service.

Some affairs involve both emotional connection AND sex outside the marriage. That probably means the marriage is truly over. One person has completely moved on and didn't have the spine to gracefully tell his/her spouse.

The words "cheating" and "affair" do not have exactly the same definition for everyone. People are arguing, but the reality is that these terms are not set in stone.

 

Yes, I largely agree with what you wrote.

I do see deep anger in the posts of some others here. Is the anger warranted? Of course. Is forgiveness deserved? No. But until they reach a place of forgiveness, they're not going to break free of the pain.

Anyway, we're all dealing with issues of one kind or another. My stance in this discussion in no way makes me any better than anyone else.

 

This is black and white thinking ("until" this, then "they're not going to..." that). The world is mostly gray.

There's a tremendous span of actions and healing which must take place for both people between betrayal and forgiveness to heal a relationship.

If the male sex addict is also an Intimacy Anorexic --- that's also going to be a long process of healing.

Yep - everyone on this site has issues or they wouldn't be here. ;-)

 

Rereading this thread the one question I have to those arguing for pmo to not equate with cheating is why do you care and what do you personally get out of it if your opinion is right? Honest question. What is the benefit to you?

I know what I think the answer is but I’m hopeful someone will give me another answer. Most of the SOs were not arguing that it is the same exact thing rather that it could cause the same exact pain. I personally don’t care if it is or not my point is if my partner is hurting me he should want to not do do.

But what does a PMO addict get out of the conclusion that porn is not the same as cheating?

 

I think it's an extra burden upon both people and makes healing harder for them.

It's not a matter of whether I get something out of it or not. In fact, it does not directly affect myself or my relationship. I very rarely look at porn and she also doesn't see it the same as an affair. I only posted because I don't want to see others unnecessarily struggling.

 

These are the thoughts that came to mind at after I reread the first post in this thread:

I think the "passion" that some people had for the debate of PMO compared to cheating is because of the attitude that the OP had about it - essentially that he deserved what happened to him.

Here is the original situation as I understand it: Couple is married for 10 years. Husband is using P and Ming throughout the relationship. Wife knows this as she has "caught him many times". Wife chooses to stay knowing that she has married a PMO addict. Wife than secretly has an affair for almost half of their relationship. Husband has to "discover" said affair.

Did his PMO use contribute to the affair? I'm sure it did, but this whole situation is fucked. Four year affair when you've only been married 10 years and throw children into the mix as well...

So I think people really don't want PMO to be equal to cheating because they don't want to end up finding themselves in a similar situation to the OP.

 

This is very insightful and I totally agree with that. We as SOs are constantly told it’s just porn relax no big deal. And often the PMO addicts are not willing to see the horrible effects of their behavior. Seeing the possibility that their partner may choose to cheat because of the PMO addicts behavior scares them. But it is a real possibility and while it may not be the same thing as cheating it was the pmo addiction that put the SO in the position to ever consider it in the first place as she was being neglected and lied to. What the SOs are saying is they feel the same as if they were cheated on the same type of betrayal not that it is the same. The response that no you can’t feel that way because I don’t or that puts additional burden on the couple (and I don’t understand how it is additional on the SO just the PA), does not change the fact that she still feels that way. So the PA addict can say no it’s not the same because I said it’s not can only serve one purpose to make the PMO addict feel better. It’s not as if the SO is going to say oh you are right let me change my feelings. They will just be left in even more pain because their partner is telling them how to feel and not acknowledging their pain. A relationship is not a war between the couple. Arguments are not won or lost, or argued using textbooks, research or opinion polls you can’t do that with feelings. It seems to me that many pmo addicts think it’s more important to be right and win than it is to not have the one they live in pain. IMO it’s because the addicts perceive the SO as having the upper hand because of their pmo behavior so they fight for any little win so they can feel safe again. A couple needs to be a team and in terms of recovery the addict needs to be unequivocally sorry. Any sort of minimizing shows the SO he’s not and saying it’s not as bad as cheating or telling someone they can’t feel that way is minimizing. It f your goal as an addict is to be forgiven then you will not be on this path. This type of behavior is solely self preservation.

It’s helpful to see that many addicts do get it and have advanced in their recovery. For others I sincerely hope they take a second look. It’s not so much about what is or is not cheating it’s about the fact that you can’t tell a hurt partner how to feel.

 

I think the difference is that there is no emotional connection to pixels, whereas someone who cheats in RL is substituting an actual person -- physical and emotional -- for their marriage partner. Think about it -- do you ever talk to the pixels?

I'm not defending PMO, but I don't think it's the same. Especially if the person who is doing the PMO-ing is also having a satisfactory sex life with their partner.

The real harm in PMO (assuming one's sex life with their partner is not being harmed) is to the person doing the PMO. The addiction is stealing from them better things to do with their life and creating a painful hankering after the addiction all day long.

I don't think PMO negatively impacted my connection with with my wife. Now work, that's another thing -- it had much more of negative impact IMO. Work got most of my attention and energy all the time. It is, in fact, a dog-eat-dog world.

 

If we asked your wife do you think she would agree that PMO did not negatively effect your sex life or your relationship? Many men have no idea how effected their wives are. It’s just not in bed it’s in the way you treat her. There have been multiple studies about how porn negativity effects women in relationships and not pmo addicts just solo use. So I suspect it does.

What everyone seems to keep missing is you can’t tell someone to feel. You can’t say you don’t think it’s cheating so you can’t think that it is. Different people are hurt by different things and at different levels but you can’t tell someone how to feel. If the pain your partner feels is the same as she would from cheating then you need to respect she feels that way whether you would or not. You can’t tell people how to feel.

 

I'm not going to debate this, because we've been happily married for 42 years and our sex life is better than ever. I think it's incredibly presumptuous for you to suppose my wife has been negatively affected because you've read that it must be so in "multiple studies".

 

That may very well be true, all I said was have you asked her how your PMO effected her? If you did and she said not at all, our sex life is great, and our marriage is amazing, then clearly whatever you all are doing is working for you.