I hate seeing attractive single women at church.

Well actually we don't know what they actually look like since they never had their portrait painted, the paintings you see were made by people who had never seen them. But even if they were actual portraits it wouldn't mean women nowadays would have to dress like them since they were a part of a different period in history and culture. I don't think the clothes they wore are made today.

But nowadays Christian women do cover up it just depends which church and culture they're a part of.

The only place in the Bible that talks about women and how they dress is 1 Timothy 2:9-10: 'Women, for their part, should display their beauty by dressing modestly and decently in appropriate clothes, not with elaborate hairstyles or by wearing gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, but through good actions'.
I don't know if you can call that a law. It seems to me that it's the opinion of writer of how he wants women to behave and dress. And anyway modesty and appropriate clothes is open to interpretation.

But I don't think we shouldn't be focusing so much on how women dress anyway. I've been in churches that make a big thing about the way women dress and it get absolutely ridiculous. Character is more important.

 

Lol, duh.. I know the clothes, traditions and cultures change but religion shouldn't change right? Changing religions is basically ignoring God's devine law. Btw headscarf can be even made nowdays.. it's not a big deal.

There is more verses about covering in the Bible. I am not going to discuss it here since it would be inappropriatein my in opinion. I can pm them if you want.

I don't know if you are a Christian, but you should educate yourself on your own history. The covering of Marry didn't drop from the sky. It's a practice which goes back to the ancient Christians who probably got it from Jesus/Maria.
It's a fact that most Christian women doesn't cover(notice "cover" and not clothe), like the ancient Christians did.
Below you can see the proof for this.
https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/head-covering-history.html

Mind you that the covering photo's on this website do look alot like the so "oppressed" Muslim women. Ain't it funny?

 

But why even bring it up if you don't to discuss it? Surely you knew you'd get a response?

Okay, you're right about the covering of heads, most Christians don't but it's only mentioned once in scripture. The fact the fact I forgot about such a thing shows how unimportant such a thing is. And anyway the OP wasn't complaining that women weren't covering their heads in church. There seems to more about character development in the teachings of Jesus than anything else. Jesus seemed to reject a number of the traditional and religious practises of his day.

Like in the Seven Woes speech where he says:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

I just think that speech and the way Jesus conducted himself according to the gospels shows Jesus cared more about who a person actually was rather than their outward appearance. I think he would be rolling his eyes if he saw people discussing the subject things like clothes.

I don't think they got it from Jesus/Maria, I think they got it from the culture they were a part of. So naturally they would dress like their culture. If Christianity started in Europe in 2017 you wouldn't see any Christian wearing head covering because it's not really the point of Christianity.

My faith is complicated. I expect some Christians would say I'm not a believer, but whatever!

 

... "cleaning your plate" isn't bad, it's their character which is corrupt, being hypocrite. It's so funny how you say that character is more important then the outside. I never said it was'nt... But a modest character will manifest in a modest way of clothing/covering/talking/behaving. It goes hand in hand.
Anyways, I see this arguing leads to nothing. Thanks for expressing your view, even though I don't agree with it.

 

Yep, it will. And modesty doesn't mean wearing a freaking hijab.

^ What he said.

Also, are men not supposed to be modest as well? Women are supposed to wear a hijab, but men can just walk around completely uncovered? Talk about hypocritical.

 

No this is not true. I believe the Christians are not true to their own scripture.
Religion is not a joke, where you pick and choose what befits you. It's the define law which should be respected in it's complete. Neither is it something, which is bent and changed from time to time to make it fit for the people. No, this is ridiculous. If you keep changing the devine law of God, then you basically make yourself the Gods and nothing will be left from the original religion.

If you can't recognize yourself with the ancient Christians, then I have my doubt if someone is really a Christian. Since the first ancient Christians were upon the right path, I believe. Believing women in time of Jesus(peace be upon him) had modesty on the inner- and outside. It wasn't just culture. It's not true that all the women in the time of Jesus(peace be upon him) used to cover. There were nonbelievers, they often didn't wear hijab, and even did do more then that. Futhermore I don't think Marry(peace be upon her) dressed like the majority of Christians nowdays. I believe she(peace be upon her) dressed more like the hijabies. You can search this up for yourself and find evidence for this. I already gave you evidence for this in the previous post.

Here are 37 verses in the Bible discussing this hijab issues and also the rights between a man and a women(btw, where the women has no authority over the men)
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Covering

Now there are people who interpret these verses, whoever the wish to. However for me they are crystal clear. Since you are talking about the rights of women. Here is what your scripture says about what you need to do.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/women

Believe me, if I compare that to the hijabies in Islam, they have far better rights.
Women rights in Islam
http://www.alsiraj.net/English/misc/women/html/page14.html

 

@Runtilmylegsdropoff

I am sincerely sorry to bring this topic to your thread. I didn't intend to create this arguing. But I feel like I have to answer the unjust things which are said about some things. Believe me I don't like this either. I wish they were right, most often they don't understand.

 

You're not a Christian, so how about you stop pretending to know more about my own faith and religion than I do. I've been studying Christianity my entire life, dear. If It was against God's word for me to walls round with my hair uncovered, I wouldnt do it.

Yeah, that's probably true. All of these Christian people just don't understand their own scripture. Clearly you, a Muslim, understand the word of God much better than all of us.

 

No, please don't get me wrong. I don't consider myself knowlegdeable, not at all! Nor do I see myself superior to anyone, this would be utterly foolish. I consider myself a student. I may be wrong and if I am, I would love to be corrected, ofcourse by evidence and proof.

It's only that I challenge in religion, that what seems wrong to me, by evidence and proof. I do this first of all to learn from, or to inform my beloved brother or sister in humanity about it. I have no other intention.

 

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's possible for someone being 'immodest' without realizing they're being 'immodest'. Are jean immodest? I know of Christians who say they are. I was Christian homeschooled and I remember there being an article saying that it was 'sinful' for women to wear jeans, but there's many Christian women where it wouldn't even occur to them that apparently wearing jean is a 'great sin'.

Really? Did you actually read them?
Genesis 9:23
But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness.
What has this got to do with the hijab? Apparently this is one of the verse all about head covering. And as you read down so many of the verses have nothing to do with the subject you're on about, there's one about the builders being demoralized, another about rams' skins being dyed red and forgiving one another because love covers a multitude of sins. I mean... It seems like you've been somewhat lazy in posting this link since it does hardly anything to back up your argument. Ok, reading through the page showed me that there's a number of places in the Old Testament about people wearing head coverings. I admit I've never noticed it before, but it's not about women covering their heads, it's about men and women covering themselves. Like I said it's a cultural thing. It should be said that bizarrely 1 Corinthians 11:5 is mentioned twice in the list. So unless I missed something the link shows that there is only one verse about head coverings.

That's not strictly true. There were female apostles like Phoebe and Junia who must have had some authority over some men. Then you have Deborah and Jael who definitely took the lead in battle in the book of Judges. There is also the woman is Song of Songs who is pretty independant. It should also be said that in one of Apostle Paul's letters it says that we should submit to one another (that's men submitting to women and women submitting men). But yes, the Bible is written in a patriarchal culture so such women are a rarity but they do exist.

Well that's good. Some of the verses in the link are impressive. There are certain verses about the treatment of women in the Old Testament that I consider very disturbing. I think you did a better job with this link compared to the others.

Yeah, I do think @truthseeker17 you're coming off as being somewhat arrogant. I wouldn't dare go around telling Muslims that there being bad Muslims. I dare say you know more about the Bible than I know about the Quran but that doesn't mean I know nothing about being a Christian. I was raised in the evangelical church, I've seen the damage the Christian purity culture has done (including to myself). I would go as far to say the purity culture contributed to me struggling with PMO since it encouraged me to view as nothing but sexual temptations.

 

Regarding the original question of hating to see a beautiful woman in church.

What is better?
1. To try to follow the preacher and being angry about seeing the girl.
or
2. To watch the girl, to study her beauty and to praise God for that?

(I suspect, if the girl is not there, you will find another distraction...)

But again to the core topic: God made women each with their own beauty, so that men are attracted to them. And for us humans not only in a sexual way. My advice is - get some good and tasteful pictures or paintings of beautiful women and study them (you know which one to avoid...). Take your time, learn how they look, find the beauty and thank God for making them.

Unto the pure all things are pure. Tit 1:15;

We fappers have learned to click quickly through pics to get the kick. And have unlearned to meditate about beauty of women and other matters of creation. Studying a beautiful woman has nothing to do with the hunt for unexpected, arousing novelty.

As a byproduct of this, you will be more relaxed when you see a beautiful women in the church. Its like seeing the sister of a long-time acquaintance. And possibly you will be more relaxed even when trying to talk to her.

Now one step further: We know that seeing pretty women with some visible skin in reality or in the computer, may trigger us to get back to our old habits. So we try to avoid to look at them.

The problem: If we do not watch, every halfway nice woman could be a trigger. I think we have to find ways to get used to some female skin and curves, as we will find it in realty and in normal internet areas. If it is not unexpected novelty, you will not be triggered.

Some religious people try to avoid that by covering as much as possible of women. But when they see a scantily clad girl, they overreact. See what the standard is, and get used to it. And better check for the beauty than for the hotness.

I told you the difference.

My Journal you will find here:
https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.p...-relapse-i-restart-again.145213/#post-1183651

 

@truthseeker17, Head coverings aka veiling is still practiced today by some Catholic and Eastern Orthodox women.

 

Really well said! I think there is danger in trying to always avoid looking at attractive women or being annoyed when women are dressed less modestly than you would like, because even that is a bit of an objectification. You're not thinking of that person as a person anymore, but rather as an annoyance to you or a thing that's placed there to tempt you. Personally, I'm "triggered" by women pretty much just as often, if not more, than I'm triggered by men. So I can relate to that. But there are plenty of beautiful women who are thin and have large breasts, and even if they are dressed modestly, it's going to be a bit "triggering" because they have nice bodies and they shouldn't have to hide that completely under super baggy clothes or something. It's the way God made them, and that's beautiful. It doesn't need to be hidden to the extreme.

So yeah, I definitely agree with the notion of retraining our minds to appreciate beauty and even sexuality in a healthy way. They aren't evil or bad, and they don't need to be constantly hidden as if they are shameful things.

 

Physical beauty and sexuality should be very low on the priority list for church. Jesus and St. Paul both admitted it was better never to marry in favor of spreading God's kingdom on Earth.

OP is right about this. It's a problem that should be fixed.

But it won't. Beautiful women are all vain. End of story.

 

Serious question, when did Jesus say this?

How very Christ-like of you to say.

Also, in another post you mention having a girlfriend. Is she ugly or vain, which one? Because according to you, you can't be both beautiful and humble. So she must be one or the other.

 

But who are these beautiful women that you talk of? If beauty in the eye of the beholder how can it be the end of the story?

 

She is fun, beautiful and very vain. She's already cheated on me and openly admitted it. I've cheated on her in response and admitted it. She is beautiful and men constantly hit on her so it's harder for her to be loyal. Cold logic.

I'm amazed you took it upon yourself to insult my gf indirectly and insult me while acting as if you're morally flawless.

Only perfect person is Jesus honey.

Mathew 19:12 for Jesus on celibacy

1 Corinthians 7 for a very detailed chapter by St. Paul on the superiority of celibacy.

St Paul admits marriage and sex in marriage is good and not sinful. But that celibacy for purer love of The Lord is superior.

 

Lol bro. I just feel like asking you to wake up right now. I see you mean well best wishes.

 

This isn't something I believe at all. It is best for a man to marry. Eve was here for Adam. Among other obvious reasons, because he needed her. I am no different. None of us would be here without our fathers AND mothers.

Now, isn't that just a little silly?

Clearly, attraction helps promote there being a relationship. Especially in the beginning? As we age and attractiveness fades, we're supposed to learn to appreciate inner merit, for certain. But, either way, married life is much more satisfying for all concerned if we're not only enjoying company but enjoying the physical realities of life.

Does not the Nature that God created all work like that. Mates seeking out based on eligibility and performance of rituals and many other trivial matters. Nature could not persist otherwise, and fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the Earth.

Just a few thoughts from my perspective