Male entitlement and how it leads to pornography use

Oops my mistake. But it's not unusual.

 

Yes, please, tag in, trying to escape this debate is starting to feel like wading through quicksand.

 

No worries, I imagine that its not.

 

Yes I have zero sympathy for 'johns'. Because 'using' a person as if it were an object is far more concerning than they are willing to admit. In this 'work' setting sex is a mean and the commodity is the woman's body and consent, or the man's for that matter.

I think no one can disagree that human objectification is heavily rooted in the minds of the so-called 'customers' otherwise how can their behavior be explained ? They see no issue with litterally buying a person's body and physical integrity. But I put most of the blame on the customers because I see how severe dehumanization has influenced their brains and numbed their sense of compassion for another individual. However, when asked directly, none of them ever enthousiasticly wished a similar fate upon a female loved one or themselves. Not a single one.

The only cases where I can put the blame on the other part as well, is when the individual selling their body is engaging willingly in this unhealthy activity. And as a result, reinforcing the concept of human objectification and commodification thus the cohesion of society.

You can't compare the drug industry to the sex trade in every single detail. Because even if they are similar in many aspects, they are fundamentaly based on different concepts. The chemical is a product, an object without consciousness nor proper mind. It is harmful and toxic on the single individual who used it more than any external party involved . The sex trade, however, the product is another person's body and consent. While disregarding very critical aspects of their humanity in this very 'interaction'. The only valuable elements in this dynamic are the genitals and physique of the 'commodity', everything else is thrown aside by the "customer" to use the other and fullfill whatever sick fantasy they have in mind.
All the reported cases of prostitutes incorporate financial problems, unstable households, drug addictions as the three major catalysts that push any woman or man to commodify themselves. Look for thel if you wish, all you have to do is do a research on Google and be very patient.

 

Yes you are free to exit or stay. But you didn't understand what I refering to.

 

I imagine you will try to defend your behavior in any way that crosses your mind. But I'm not complaining.

 

Obviously we're talking about voluntary exchange. If I learned that the girl is being forced into it by someone I'd call the police.

Fair point.

I have no contact with my incarnations in parallel universes but I'm still confident in saying I would be the same person I am now if I didn't decide to meet an escort. It's just normal human sex. Porn is a different story...

It might be true that the initial impulse is often (but not always) one of those. But few other things are true: 1. society's judgment plays as much or even more of a role as deterrent than personal objections to the work 2. there's always another way to make money that one can pick 3. even after the debts are paid or whatever, the girls keep offering their services - why?

I have stated multiple times on this site that I consider myself to be a weak lazy idiot for all the time and opportunities I have wasted in my life. Defending myself is not something I do much, especially when I'm anonymous.

 

@she-dernatinus No offense, but I don't think assuming things like someone went to a prostitute is helping you. At this point, I don't even know what point you're trying to make so badly.

 

There is no way for you to tell. And in either cases the will to reduce another human to the state of a mere object, whose only relevant attributes are the genitals and physique, says enough about the "customer". The one objectifying themselves is wrong on so many levels, but the other who is willing to profit from this commodification (while refusing anything mildly similar upon his loved ones or their own person) reveals something deeply disturbing about themselves. To me, these individuals aren't trustworthy nor can I ever establsih any significant bond with them.

It's not just normal sex. It's sex along with objectification and empathy obliteration. As for whether meeting an escort or not has changed you, I don't think so. To condone such a phenomenon you had to be mentally prepared to see it as mild and just 'normal human sex', and now that you have already crossed this line, you feel the need to justify it even more than before.
And this 'parallel universe' argument, is something I have encountered more than once by sex trade apologists. They always refuse to give a straightforward, definitive answer when the reality of the sex trade is no longer about a distant woman but about one from close loved ones.

It's the lack of other options that really leads to such a 'work'. It becomes even more of a "necessary evil" if the woman is suffering from alchohol or drug dependance. As for whether the girls can leave or not, it' another matter. But since most of the time they were either addicted to drugs in the first place or became so while doing their 'job', it can be a very strong reason to never conceive of leaving the sex trade.
You have also to take into consideration the reality of such a 'work', it always includes intimidation by pimps or by the industries they are involved with. It's their sad reality, after so many months and years of being objectified and reduced to a mere 'product', these girls feel like they belong nowhere else. They have the preconceived idea that they no longer are worthy of anything else than the degrading attention their customers and pimps give them. This pessimistic worldview they harbor leads them to even more extreme drugs and deadly subtances, which makes them even more bound to the sex trade.
And porn is no different at all, it also keeps feeding on the predatory objectification of it's users toward others (mostly females). And the performers, whether forced or not, still endure the same subhuman treatements. That is of course without mentioning the strong ties the porn industry has with the global sex trade industry. The former cannot subsist without the latter.
I don't think the criterias should be based on the means in which people are objectified, if it's an objectification by real life encounter or by a computer screen. Both are insignficant to really grasp the real danger, and the real problem that lays within the unapologetic commofication of one toward others.

You probably know yourself and insecurities better than anyone, including me. And if 'weak' and 'lazy' are the adjectives you use to descibe your personality, I won't argue with you.

 

good job op

 

I only suspected it. But I couldn't make a strong assumption unless I had sufficient proofs.

 

That's untrue and probably the key thing you don't understand. Because you can't imagine yourself doing it voluntarily you automatically assume that those who do must have been forced to it. Maybe you're the one lacking empathy?

Again, not true. Often, there isn't even any pimp involved.

You keep making claims involving qualificators like 'always' and 'most of the time' and I doubt they are supported by evidence.

It is completely different. Paid sex is a human interaction. It's rather more transactional compared to unpaid sex but still, a human interaction. Watching porn is a passive solo activity whereby the consumer puts himself into the role of a submissive voyeur. This unnatural state warps the mind and turns men (I don't know much about what it does to women) into sissies.

 

I did a lot of research and contacted a lot of former "sex workers" . And I can confirm that I'm telling you the truth.
It's funny you claim I'm the one lacking empathy. And at the same time, state that I project my own ideas into those "workers".

It's just absurd for the one lacking empathy to see the humanity/emotions/innate value of 'sex workers' and viewing their treatement of commodification as unfair, while the one insisting on the legitimacy of commodifying their bodies and using them without bothering himself with their personalities and real feelings, pretends he's the empathic one.

It's called gaslighting, what you are doing.

It's unconceivable that no external party is involved in this trade. The porn industry is always keeping ties with "sex workers" of all kind.
What about the sites where they advertise their "services" ? Their sponsors ? Don't you think the site owners ,as well as any sponsor, can perfecty play the role of a pimp ? .

I told this minor difference is meaningless in examining the concept of human objectification. Which is a dangerous mentality. whether it's via this way or another it doesn't really hold much importance. The conclusion is there is a bunch of people who feel at ease with buying another person, as if it were an inanimate sexual item to please themselves with. Those are the mentalities that make me wary.

 

It seems to me you are trapped in a bubble of justifications you are not willing to examine anytime soon.
Tell me, would feel happy if your mother started to sell her body ? What will be your feelings and views about this particular situation ?

 

Wrong. Self-employment is quite common.

I don't know if you're joking at this point. So in order to advertise on a website you need to sleep with the owner? You could create a profile and start promoting yourself right now, in 10 minutes, without even speaking to anyone.

Lol. Happy prostitutes probably don't want to talk to a moralizing feminist. I definitely think that nobody should do sex work unless they are 100% sure that that's what they want. If someone thinks prostitution is bad and then becomes a prostitute... then they're very stupid, not sure what else to tell you.

What a question...
Mom is an intelligent woman more than capable of making choices about her life. Who am I to tell her what to do? But this is purely hypothetical - she would never do sex work.

 

I feel like I'm saying the same stuff over and over. And this thread is a near copy of another one here somewhere that I participated in not so long ago.

@she-dernatinus you talk a lot about what you don't like but you say nothing about what you actually want. Criticism is easy. Do you have a vision of how should things be set up?

 

This entire argument has completely devolved into moralistic generalisation, looking back I have no idea how I managed to lose track of time while engaging in it to such an extent I stayed around as long as I did (well I was listening to a long podcast at the same time but still lol.) You are never going to get anywhere with this because arguing about the nuance of a subject is pointless when the person you are arguing with is arguing from a supposed moral high ground. Notice how you simply providing details and context has been misconstrued as you "defending" and "apologising" for sex work even though you never directly stated what you personally thought of it, all you were doing was providing information.

This attempt at a "gotcha" is nothing more than a cut and dried example of a speculative fallacy. Like I said when I answered this myself, I cant say what I would think if a family member became a prostitute because it is so far out of the realm of reality that it is barely relevant to the discussion, as I imagine it is with you. It also ignores any possible context as to why a parent/sibling/daughter would become a prostitute; did a long chain of events lead to it, or did they just wake up one day and decide to do it on a whim? Among countless other variables you would have to apply to make asking something like that mean anything. But of course context doesnt matter because no matter what your answer is you lose. If you approve of it then you are immoral and a degenerate, if you dont you are a hypocrite, and if you refuse to answer clearly you are just being stubborn and that by itself provides a clear window into our inner souls or some such nonsense. Give me a break lmfao.

 

I believe that part of the problem is that there is a lot of ambiguity and confusion when it comes to relationships between the sexes.

Going on a date with a woman is now just seen as a stage in getting her to bed, whilst I believe that it should be a way of getting to know one another and eventually deciding whether to marry.

People need clear goals, boundaries and structures. Society doesn't run well when there's so much ambiguity and dysfunction.

Porn is popular and seen as acceptable because we live in a society that values almost nothing of importance. All we want is self-gratification and everything to serve our endless needs.

 

Hypothetical or not. You didn't offer a straightforward answer. You evaded it. The question wasn't centered around your mother's personality. It was about your feelings if your mother found herself in this situation. It was the same thing as atomic tango said, nothing truly different. It's a method of evasion.
In order to neither be a hypocrite nor degenerate, you should offer the same basic decency you wish upon your family members. And by condoning the sex trade, and wishing your close family members to be spared from it, You are indeed vicious and exploitative.

Many former prostitutes and escorts indeed relate all the hidden aspects of their lives. And many of them find refuge with people of this ideology. And most of them never hinted at any happiness or inner contentement.
But you want to legitimize human objectification no matter what. And claim prostitutes are happy, to you they appear to be happy. Because you are a "customer", someone they feel obliged to perform an act in front of. But with associations and activists who see them as humans not objects, they get no material reward nor fame, just their full time and patience as well as sincere compassion.
As for whether escorts sleep with site owners or not. Let me tell you nothing is meant to be free, espescially in the sex trade.

A "john" also ignores any possible context in which a female ends up selling herself sexually. Her family members don't, they saw her ever since her birth. And see more in her than a sexual commodity, something the 'john' doesn't care to do.
This a call to re-humanize the sexually commodified person, by obliterating annd ignoring the scenario where she is nothing more than a sexual item. And seeing anything further.
There are endless ways to imagine life scenarios. But no matter how much they vary, The "John" entitelement to sexual commodification is the most problematic issue.
You know @AtomicTango , I would have respected you a lot if you expressed your comfort in case a female family member ended up as an 'escort' or 'prostitute'. It maybe will be seen negatively by many. But you will be undeniable honest and frank. It's the best stance you can show while condoning the sex trade.

 

Me to anyone hoping to join in this wonderful discussion; get out while you still can, its too late for us, save yourself.