Male entitlement and how it leads to pornography use

I have the time and energy to work on myself because I am the person who benefits from me working on myself, this isnt selfish, its just pragmatic. I should also say I am fairly knowledgeable of the things said in this thread, and was before it started, I made a thread myself about a similar subject back in January in fact. I dont know what you mean by your last two questions.

 

I see your obstination and denial as a satisfying non-intentional answer.
Tell me one thing, If by misfortunate events or misguided thoughts, your (supposed) daughter ended being a prostitute, would you excuse any of her 'Johns' just because they felt 'lonely' and couldn't get 'human warmth' ?

 

Disagreeing with you isnt me being obstinate, its just me disagreeing with you, get over it. I dont know what I would do if my hypothetical daughter became a prostitute, I dont even plan on having children and the prospect of that happening is so far out of my personal experience that any answer is barely relevant to anything that I've said.

 

What about your mother ? You surely have one.
How would you feel if any 'john' commodified her body and later used the same loneliness and human warmth alibi ?

 

You seem very eager to try and trap me into some sort of "gotcha" but OK I'll bite. If my mother became a prostitute, I would probably not like it. But I would have no control over that happening and would not be able to do anything about it. Envisioning this happening is so far removed from reality, it is such a ridiculous fantasy, that its safe to say that in a world where my mother did become a prostitute, I would also be a completely different person from the one I am now, and my answers may not align.

 

That is interesting. Thank you for openly admitting your disaproval of such a situation. So human commodification is really a bad thing after all and a degrading one, espescially when it's your loved ones who experience it first hand. And by proxy, you too. That explains why your whole outcome might have been different.
It's not a ridiculous fantasy at all. It's always useful to bring those hypothetical scenarios to anyone to have a better insight about their persona.
But still, I can't say I have been surprised nor disappointed.

 

Earlier in the thread I said that this was turning into a "moralistic argument" and it definitely has become one. I'm pretty sure (and correct me if I did do this) I didn't defend prostitution, or porn, or any of those things from a MORAL perspective. I merely stated that there are differing levels of severity to those things and it is simplistic to say they are all the same, because they arent. No amount of arguing on an internet forum is going to convince me watching porn is the same as sleeping with a hooker or that either of those two things are even close to rape. I dont believe any of those things are "morally" correct, but I dont get to decide what societies morals should be, and that, at the end of the day, is my argument. I can disagree with the morality of being a sex worker but I can also think its none of my damn business what other people do.

 

The cycle is now complete. You can disagree all you want, and keep being the way that you are. But it will never change the fact that human objectification is a callous personality trait. And those who feel it is justifyable to buy, sell or own another person' body for whatever excuse they might have fetched are self-centered and close minded narcissists.
But your previous reply is all I needed to read.

 

Once again, I dont disagree that objectification on the scale you mention is bad, because of course it is. But, to fully loop back to where we started, viewing women in a sexual manner is not inherently bad, nor is it bad when women do the same to men. Its a perfectly natural and normal part of the human experience.

Also, for my closing statement; Game of Thrones, the show/book that you based your profile picture on, has countless sex scenes that objectify and demean women. If you want to stick to your principles you really ought to stop watching/reading it. Now goodnight for now, I look forward to our next pointless debate. Have a good one!

 

It's not a valid exemple , that ethnic group is center on other moral precepts. For example, women can have relationships with whoever they want in that matriarchal society , moreover they are very far from capitalism and the western god of sex/money, they focus their life on manual labor and familycare ...

We don't know what would be a matriarchal world , and we cannot know.
Personally i think there would be also rapes of males...

 

Yes they follow the serial monogamy systems. I don't think manual labor or family care is negative in that setting. And no the word for "rape" doesn't exist in their spoken language. It applies to both genders of course. Any potential sexual aggression is refered to by "murder". And any crime of this tyoe is punished by death. And that is convincing enough for anyone to stay away from this path.
They practice the walking marriage tradition, which means that if a man wants to have sex with a woman, he wears a straw hat and visits her later at night. These women rarely have over one partner, because it's serial monogamies, and the women still want to know the father of their child.

Well there you have one. Go google it, I'm sure you will be interested in their philosophy of life and their social organization.
And I think that it's a very good example. Along with the matriarchal tibetan tribes who have similar patterns.

 

I told you not to confuse objectification and natural healthy attraction.
So, to you human objectification is something positive, natural and acceptable. And those who see in their fellow humans objects of pleasure aren't at least worthy of our concerns.
As for game of thrones, What interests me is characters like Arya stark who stood against all odds and enemies. As well as many other female characters that followed this developpement. But the one thing that sparks my interest over all is how far people are going to go for power and the desire to subjugate and deprive others of their dignity.

 

I never said anything contrary to that. I agree, but it's vastly different from objectification.

 

Nah I'm just messing with you. I am referring to the latter, not the former. Viewing someone sexually, as long as it is not inappropriate, is part of the latter. At the end of the day I think we agree more than we disagree and there has been some mixed messaging going on here, that I have no interest in continuing. I see you just replied again basically agreeing with me so lets agree to leave it at that OK?

I am also a fan of Game of Thrones (or I was, those last few season ammiright?) but I much prefer the books. I think if you haven't read them you definitely should, as they go into a lot more detail on the subjects you mentioned and in general there are more female characters than in the show. Just be warned that theres a good chance the book series wont ever be finished, people have been waiting 9 years for the second to last book to come out and its nowhere near done, and the author is getting on in age so its not looking good. Still, the ones that are out are definitely good enough to justify the read.

 

You weren't messing with anyone in here. My statement is that : it will never change the fact that human objectification is a callous personality trait. You said it's only an opinion, as if any 'possible' alternative wouldn't raise suspicions and concerns. In fact I don't see any possible alternative than the exact opposite of this statement.

 

I think we are having a bit of a language barrier moment here. When I say I was "messing with you" I mean it as a joke, because you said I thought human objectification was a good thing so I replied with that jokey gif. I didnt mean anything other than that. As for the rest of what you said, as you have now clarified that you agree with me saying that viewing someone sexually is a normal part of the human experience, there is no need to keep pressing the point.

 

And even if I agreed with you on that point, I still have zero sympathy for men (and women) who 'buy' another person's body. It doesn't really matter to me if this prostitued person is indeed complicit or not, the malicious intention of commodifying this person's consent and body is still present. Which leads to turning it into a commercialized product. And it's way more lethal than anyone can imagine. It's a reduction of the whole personality of a person to one single insignificant aspect: sexual servitude.

Even if desiring people sexually is indeed natural, it will never lead to the conclusion that objectification of mostly women in the sex trade is any mild or acceptable. Or that these women and men, aren't suffering every single day to provide more and more hardcore content. Viewing Porn isn't any different as well. When you click on any video, you purchase that person's body, without knowing nor caring about the life they had led until now. Or how they ended up in the industry in the first place, or if they are truly happy and enthousiastic about this whole life. But most of the time they aren't, all the retired performers narrate the horrible treatement they endure. Sometimes the sexual violences get so intense that actors are taken urgently to be 'fixed', other times some performers will attempt suicide and a lot of times they succeed. Many young missing girls end up signing 'modeling' contracts and are lured into a life of filmed rape. It happens to some teen boys as well. The worst of it all, is that on the other side of the screen a porn user is relishing in this imagery. Prefering to stay oblivious to all of the horror that is happening.
It's no surprise the major parts of deaths in the industry are due to drug overdose. These people, men and women, prefer to numb their critical senses and painful sentiments by injecting deadly chemicals.

 

I think you probably went to a prostitute in some part of your life. This is the reason that makes most sense to me, you view any criticism toward 'johning' as an accusation. Otherwise, you have no reason for responding that desiring others sexually is natural. Even though my point was to never deny this truth in the first place.

 

I'm a virgin lol, but good guess.

 

Nice debate you have going on here. @she-dernatinus you can fight me instead - I did sleep with girls for money a few times.

Oh it definitely matters! Even if you think prostitution is bad you cannot put all the blame on the customer. You have zero sympathy for those who buy but you don't mind those who sell? Nonsense! That's like saying you hate junkies but drug dealers are okay. Any business exists because there's demand and because there's supply. Without the former (bottled air) or the latter (trips to Jupiter) economic activity cannot happen.

Those are some next level mental gymnastics. Who turned her body into a product? Who sold the Wap?