But wait, there’s more!

Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by Vixen, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    New discovery. I think I’ve figured out why PA husband has been crazy defensive gaslighting and back to his not-so-charming asshole self.

    IMDB Parental advisory. R movies with explicit sexual content. He’s perusing for risqué movies with his favorite actresses and using Not in Watchlist as a springboard. I discovered through perusing his accountability ap.

    So behold; my first real understanding of p-sub.

    Since his original deviance of choice was cybersex in chatrooms, reading sexual movie text is probably the best thing. And fairly covert.

    Earlier tonight he got upset and emotional from a dog dying in Babe Pig in the City. This is not a common occurance but dogs are his weak spot. Our dachshund died a year ago. So I show him affection and empathy and then while I give the girls a bath he creeps for sexual text including Rachael Weisz.

    I’m not sure how to approach this as I did not have a boundary for this before. Advice would be helpful.

    I’m pleased that my intuition was correct as something going on... and he has purchased ED pills without saying anything to me. Even tonight when we did FANOS. When we got to sobriety all he said was “No change.”

    This whole thing is an annoying use of time. I’ve detached enough I’m not even emotionally upset but curious if a break up may be impending.
     
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  2. In our home we don't watch movies/shows with nudity. If there is a sex scene with underwear shown my husband looks away. Also my husband doesn't use netflix or tv on his own. He instead uses more productive/creative uses of his time - Drawing, Reading, Talking to his group, playing with our son, etc.
     
  3. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    I thought I'd coined a new term "assholiness", but according to Urban Dictionary, there is already a definition of it. LOL, My definition would have been "the propensity to become an instant asshole. Just add alcohol or other vice of choice." Urban Dictionary's Defintion: "A person who by definition is the biggest asshole on the planet. Only the "King" of assholes can carry the title of assholiness. This elitist asshole is the highest ranking asshole!" Anyhow, I digress! I do like that description "not-so-charming self" thought. Fitting, as I was that asshole.

    Yep, we knew he was into something, not following the spirit of the rules, and engaging in something. There were just way too many RED FLAGS.
    It doesn't take much. Women in lacy bras and panties in the Victoria Secret catalog acts as a p-sub for some.
    Don't know what that says to you that he weeps over a dog dying, but doesn't over the relationship with his wife. I know what it would say to me.
    Well, do you have p-subs on the list? If not, add it, and have a stern discussion about it. Remember, he is acting out his man-child. "You know what the spirit of the Boundaries are. You are deliberately trying to circumvent the rules. So please don't tell me or try to convince me that you are recovering." It's like the two siblings sitting in the back seat of the car. One reaches over and keeps touching the other provoking the response: "Stop" and "Quit" and "Don't touch me" and "He keeps touching me". You turn around and say "Don't touch your sister" So instead, he commences to putting his finger within 1 mm of her face. She says "Stop" and "Leave me alone", etc. You turn around, and he says "I'm not touching her. I'm not touching her." He knows that was a violation of the spirit of the rule. The addict is cunning, baffling, and powerful, and will do anything to protect the addiction and anything to teeter on the edge of the rules and the spirit of them. That is why I am so adamant at making them so crystal clear, you wouldn't even know there was a crystal there. He knows the damned behavior is unacceptable, yet continues to do it.
    "No change"? LOL, No Shit! This is why I preach about trusting your intuition and paying attention to the RED FLAGS! It was right on target.
    Yes it is! And so too is his PMO behavior. You have those beautiful children, and they are watching. They are learning. They are absorbing the interactive behavior between the two of you. And they are doing it at an age of the most discovery in their lives. I made it a point to capitalize on that time with my children, in spite of my PMO, and it resulted in a huge intellectual outcome. All three were in the top 5 percentile. My point is this. When my children were at that age, I was so very active in their lives from the time they woke up until the time they went to bed. Their naps were our resting time. And now, it has paid off huge for them. But I was stuck at my Addicted age, so by the time they reached puberty, their emotional intelligence surpassed mine, and left me way behind. I didn't realize it until after it was done. You don't want your children to wake up one day and be the dysfunctional mess they witnessed growing up. Because at the end of the day, generally speaking, these cycles tend to cross generational boundaries for many generations to come. Just heed my warning on this.
    The fact you are "...not even emotionally upset..." is cause for concern. That signals the start of a decline in your ability to remain emotionally attached to him because he, in spite of his incessant whining and complaining and acting out behaviors, he continues to lie his ass off. And I suspect, of all the things he is doing, the lying stabs you in the heart worse than anything else he is doing. It's easy to give chance after chance after chance when one is actively pursuing genuine recovery. It is not so easy to give more chances when he is lying, deceitful, patronizing, and manipulative. It exhibits a total lack of respect for you and you're too stupid to do anything about it. Are you stupid? I don't hardly think so. But he sure as hell has been treating you like an idiot don't you think?

    So far, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in so long as he continues down this path, he hasn't hit "Rock Bottom". Thus, he hasn't embraced his addiction to a point where he is genuinely interested in recovery. He constantly violates the rules, objects to the rules, and honestly is obstinate and has a complete disdain about the rules. Ask anyone who has lost their Partner how they feel about your Partner's behavior. @cakeinacrisis has a great view and perspective on this as she, bless her heart, had to move forward, and take action. I'm not going to tell her story, because it isn't mine to tell. But I'd really consider reaching out to her, as she has gone through this shit in the past couple of months, has a so very eerily similar set of circumstances right down to the twins, and I think you two could really relate and support one another. I love the strong resilient confident woman she has become, and she has become a really tremendous asset to this community. So please reach out to her.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  4. cakeinacrisis

    cakeinacrisis Fapstronaut

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    Our situations are almost identical! Im here whenever you need me @Vixen!
     
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  5. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Did you have issues with discovering p-subs with your ex PA? How did he respond? What did you do?
     
  6. cakeinacrisis

    cakeinacrisis Fapstronaut

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    I didn't discover any, but I also wasn't looking...
    When his "recovery" started taking a nose dive, I assumed it was because he was relapsing/doing something shady. So I asked a couple of times what was going on & I got gaslit like crazy; blamed, manipulated, etc.
    When I realized there wasn't a damn thing I could do to make this man be honest with me & stop the addict behavior, I stuck to my boundaries & here we are ;)

    The behaviors that stemmed from my husband's addiction, the lack of trying, my mothers situation, & trying to keep myself sane for my children became too much.

    I really felt like I was dying every day the behavior continued..I lost 50 lbs & started to wither away, my body ached every day, & I was becoming someone I didn't like...
    I can eat now, my body doesn't hurt, & my peaceful spirit is returning.

    I promise you, no amount of catching him is going to make him want to stop. He has to hit rock bottom & that looks different for everyone.
    I would suggest separation for a little while. He might reconsider his behavior when he gets a glimpse into what his future might look like ;)
     
  7. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    We talked. Lots of minimizing and justifying. He does admit to skirting the line. Still claims to have not done the PMO as agreed. When I point out how heavily he has been gaslighting and minimizing, he says:

    “Gaslighting?! You made that word up.” He exclaims. I think he followed with something along the lines of “This is all in your head.” But honestly I was distracted and laughing with the pinnacle of irony of his former comment. Brilliant yet pitiful in its dull fog.

    Brain fog from fantasy. I think that’s the culprit here. Several inconsistencies too. He tells me today he’s only doing this stuff to pacify me. After my trip for separation space, he told me in rage that he was doing this for himself and not for me otherwise he would have fallen off the bandwagon. Sooo this doesn’t really help me trust that he hasn’t fallen. He looked me in the eye and swore he hasn’t masturbated. He glanced to the right twice. I’m still not fully convinced.

    He accuses me of creating this narrative in my head. Tried to distract by stating all the benign ways he uses IMDB. As I let on that I could clearly tell what was going on he minimizes by saying it’s not nearly as bad or as arousing as when he used chatrooms for hours of sexual banter.

    And then blames me for treating all his sexuality as bad. Suggests that I join him in fantasy. Because it’s a relationship and he should have 50% say. After he said we don’t have a relationship because of no sex/rebooting. I counter by saying if that is the case— if the criteria for “relationship” is sex... (Which I feel underlines the fact he is hyper focused on sex).. then most of our marriage has not been a relationship. Because he was not sexually present. Because he was spending time in fantasy land instead.

    He says I want power and to control him. Says he wasn’t actually hiding things because I have an app on his phone. When I tell him I need him to be forthcoming, take iniative and be engaged in communicating about his recovery he says he shouldn’t have to because of the accountability app and that if I want more I should remove the app. He also blames me for not opening up because I’m not approachable. When I bring him my concerns in a pretty calm fashion he says I’m attacking him or setting a trap.

    So much crazy.

    I told him he’s not taking this seriously. He believes all his gaslighting because he’s not letting his brain heal. I told him this is wasting our time and I was considering separation. If we are going to separate we should do so while children are young. His initial response was that we can’t afford it.

    “You would have to work a full shift. You would have to put kids in daycare.” (He knows I do not want to do this so I consider this a prospective manipulation/threat. “You can go live with your mom and feed off of eachothers’ crazy.” Just offensive. And gaslighting. And he knows I can’t stand to spend too much time with her.

    Another discrepancy (potential manipulation/pity party) I’ve called him on: he acts so sad about our toddler protesting him leaving for work in the morning. He has seemed genuinely conflicted about this but when I present the notion of him cutting down his hours so he can stay home one day and let me work one day to balance it out... he is disagreeable. Would rather pay a babysitter (which may cost as much or more than what he would make in that day). When I inquired about if he’s even genuine about wanting to spend time with kids since he doesn’t want to work less— he says that work allows him to get away from the stress of kids and away from me. Not really winning me over on this one.

    Eventually he softened and seemed concerned with watery eyes. Told me he loved me, does not want to separate and will stop the p-sub.

    Whew this takes too long to record all the mess. I’m sure this isn’t even comprehensive.

    Course of action. I’m considering leaving this weekend. I could visit a friend a little ways away if I bring kiddos with me. Or might be nice to even leave kids with husband and go out on my own. A girlfriend of mine also suggested I get counseling for myself as she has recently done so and is living it.

    I’m just not sure if this is normal addict “progress” or if this qualifies as “insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” On my part.

    At the very least this is another poor score during my phase of observation. I need to spend my time in more productive ways.

    I’m not sure if there is genuine light at the end of the tunnel or if this is just a glimmer, a fantasy that I myself am chasing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  8. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    I feel like I'm on the precipice of this. Pretty close to my threshold.

    Oh wow I'm so sorry you went through all of that. I think I've become somewhat accustomed to the emotional abuse over the years because it hasn't had as much of a dramatic impact on me. I'm not sure if the fact that I've built up an immunity makes me strong or is just more toxic/tragic. Or maybe both. The glimmer of hope that there could be a solution (granted a dwindling light at this point) coupled with actually knowing (more or less) what is the root of our troubles has been very liberating for my heart. When I was pregnant, like third trimester pregnant with twins, he told me on a couple occasions (which was almost out of the blue) that he hated me. That was so hard. I had to push it below and be strong for the babies and survive. I've been in that mode for a long time now. There is much less stress on that survival now that I'm not worried about premature labor stress complications and I will also feel justified to walk-- if/when that occurs. For so long I was terribly torn in anguish and quandary as to what the hell was wrong with our marriage. Now I know. Knowledge power. He deflects that I want power often... (I think he's the one more controlling than I am, typically). But I do want power to know what is going on with my marriage.

    I'm seriously considering it. Granted we didn't discuss "p-subs" in my original boundaries. I did say no fantasizing though. He minimizes the fantasizing going on with that... but he's clearly compulsively perusing multiple R rated movies including specific choice actresses. And he's doing this in the other room.

    Thanks for sharing your experience! It's valuable for me to see things a few steps ahead. My path has certainly been similar to yours. We will see what happens...
     
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  9. cakeinacrisis

    cakeinacrisis Fapstronaut

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    I was so oblivious to what was going on, I had no clue I was being emotionally abused until dday. My dday was a complete surprise; I truly had an out of body experience that forever changed me. Suddenly, everything & nothing made sense in my marriage. It was a trip, for sure....
    This will be your best friend; your knowledge. It's going to be the thing that's on your side when your husband is acting a fool, spinning things & crumbling on the inside.
    Anytime!
    It's a tough climb up that mountain; keep going & you'll see the top soon ;)
     
  10. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Wow! The out of body experience sounds interesting. I definitely relate to the rest. I did feel pretty numb and surreal. Everything and nothing. This predicament is full of contradictions!
     
  11. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    You see, I told you she would be a tremendous asset to help you. I am too.

    I’m driving so I can’t really comment much right now. But when I get to a stopping point, I have a whole lot to say about this. His behavior is totally unacceptable and totally outrageous.
     
  12. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    I’m excitedly anticipating the calvary!
     
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  13. cakeinacrisis

    cakeinacrisis Fapstronaut

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    Thx my friend..
    I think she should take me up on my offer to go have a girls week in Vegas; anywhere really. All the SOs need to meetup in an environment full of palm trees, no men, & no children. One big emotion-fest ;)

    You are right; his behavior is not OK. It's not OK to do to any human, but the mother of his children? Nope.
    His kids will learn their father's behavior.
    I feel like addicts with kids don't fully acknowledge the impact it has on them. The way my husband ignored me, demeaned me, blamed me, etc was being watched by little eyes....
    Also, what if they walked in on him going to town with himself? What if they'd found things someday, just like I did?

    I just want to shake some men & scream what about the kids????
    Selfish.
     
  14. Kenzi

    Kenzi Fapstronaut

    My daughter is actually the reason my husband got caught.
    She used his youtube and saw Disney princess porn... That he was watching.. While he was driving! That day on his way to work!
    (I'm glad she showed me immediately!! )
    Yeah.... We have come so far since then..
     
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  15. cakeinacrisis

    cakeinacrisis Fapstronaut

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    So, I just had a physical reaction reading this. My stomach did that butterfly thing & I forgot to breathe for a second.

    You amaze me with your strength & patience. Resilience.

    I have no clue how I would've handled my daughter finding it. I'd probably need bail $ :emoji_shrug:
     
  16. Kenzi

    Kenzi Fapstronaut

    Yeah.... It's been a long road, indeed...
     
  17. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Oh wow that is mortifying! I too felt taken back when I read that.
     
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  18. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    Uggh yeah the kiddos. That’s very important. I’m very wary of their proximity during arguments but my husband is less so. Even when we go to another room to talk today I can tell my daughter is picking up vibes.

    Vegaaassss! Yaaaaaassss!
     
  19. I totally get the p-sub thing.
    Its the reason I joined nofap in sept 2017.
    I couldn’t seem to stop myself from looking for sexual things in places where they shouldn’t be. Like youtube.
    I didn’t want to go to porn sites or look for obvious sexual stuff, but I felt like it was some exciting challenge to look for foreign movies or vintage erotic movies from the 60s or 70s.
    I didn’t masturbate to them, I couldn’t figure out why I was even looking. I guess it gave some exciting dopamine hit, just not knowing what I would find.
    I also could with honesty say I wasn’t looking at “porn”.
    But I felt bad anyway because I didn’t really believe my lie.
    My wife didn’t know anything about it, I was trying to quit on my own. Having given my source of personal knowledge, it seems that your husband is definitely trying to blame you for all of his problems and still trying to hang onto the addiction.
    I used to blame my wife for our problems.
    I was a jerk. It was because I couldn’t tell her that the real problem was my addiction to sex. I needed sex to desl with my emotions, be it masturbation and fantasy, seeing nudity, or just seeing a woman acting sexual in some way.
    Even reading about it.
    I wanted my wife to replace my PMO, so that I could give up PMO but not the dopamine hit that I got from it.
    The part where your husband was trying to get you to join in his fantasy sounded all too familiar.
    Takes one to know one I guess.

    Anyway, some of the sbusive things he said sounded like the might be narcissistic more than just addict.
    It worries me because I’ve had to deal with one in the past.
    They are super manipulative, and jump from tears and remorse to mean in no time, because they are just trying to see which one will manipulate better.

    Anyway, trust your gut. Be strong. It’s really all on him.
    People do what they want to.
    When he really wants to quit, he will.
    When he really decides that, you couldn’t keep him addicted if you wanted to.
     
  20. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

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    That same thing worries me too. I’ve been told not to diagnose him but not long after discovery, I determined he may be a covert narcissist. He’s definitely on the spectrum. So if I stay I have to deal with boundaries either way. So much energy wasted... so much belligerence....

    It was a struggle to even get him to accept the consequence of not sleeping in bed with me tonight. He initially flippantly refused. By the end of our conversation he softened a bit but still tried to negotiate that I must help him blow up the air mattress. Pretty much always tit-for-tat with him. I told him that was absurd to barter when he is the one who broke a boundary. I suspect I may need to take further action but I’m just not sure yet.

    What do you think would be a productive consequence for this behavior? I appreciate hearing from your perspective. Thanks for sharing!
     
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