But wait, there’s more!

Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by Vixen, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

    That's refreshing.
    Yeah, I call bullshit, but whatever!
    Yep! You pulled it out of your ass...you and 3.7 Million others according to a google search of the term.
    LMAO, how did you manage to keep a straight face? I mean, the shit that comes out of his mouth. That's great! Use gaslighting to tell you gaslighting is all in your head. You just can't make this shit up.
    LOL, well, I'm no expert, but...(sorry, this just cracks me up). Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. I didn't use the word "pacify", but I think I did use the word "patronize".
    Yeah, I'd be overly cautious of that damned promise myself. For the record, every addict I know, myself incluced, stood or sat right before their partner and told them a bold face lie. It's a known fact in the addiction community. Here! I wrote this a long time ago for your entertainment pleasure:
    How to Lie to your SO (…and Get Away with It)
    Well of course you did. The narrative you created in your head is that you are, in fact, sane. If he had to make it a point to declare all the benign ways he uses IMDB while subsequently claiming it's not nearly as bad as arousing as when he used chatrooms for hours of sexual banter..." Did he just do an end around to admit to doing it? I think he did.
    Well, from all I have learned so far, he certainly is a lowsy lay. I mean, as sex addicts, we all are. It isn't until you come out of your addiction, that you can begin to show signs of sexual life that your Partner can live with. Go ahead. Let him blame you. Hell, take full credit for it. Why? It's true. "...all his sexuality..." is bad! Why? Because we suck at it. Do a survey of women betrayed, and see what statistic you come up with.
    Then take his billigerant ass to Disney World. It is a beautiful endless world of "fantasy". In no uncertain terms, do not indulge his sexual fantasies. You will only be enabling him, and it will do nothing to improve the situation whatsoever. Don't ever agree to this crap with an addict.
    Interesting. My men's group talked about this 50% this evening. If he's putting in his 50%, then he's only putting in half of what you are; 100%. Both parties to a relationship must put in 100%. That's how relationships thrive. I get it. He wants to be equal. Fine. Go all in, put in your 100%, and let's call it a day. Otherwise, your 50% isn't worth the oxygen used to say it.
    BINGO! That was a very good response. Is that all you are to him? An object for his sexual gratification? That's what your entire relationship surrounds and is to him? Wow, I just can't believe he had the audacity to say it, but this addiction takes all forms.
    Is that right? Hey, if you wanted power and to control him, all you'd have to do is take all the evidence before you, find yourself a very good divorce attorney, and you'd have power and control over him for the next two decades. Boundaries are not about power and control. They are about self preservation, allowing you to maintain a safe and secure presence in your environment. Nothing more. Violation of Boundaries that affect you is a choice he made/makes.
    Can you say "addict"! Damn he is hard headed. And you should have to enforce it, but you know that you do have to. He did this to himself. It is a natural consequence of his outragous behavior.
    Well if you're doing nothing wrong, it can't be a trap now can it? What a ridiculously absurd statement. Yeah, I'm sure you just sit around thinking up ways to trap him? Trap my ass.
    YES! This! YES!
    Yeah, well he better figure it out real soon before he ends up spending a better part of his young adulthood paying child support.
    Yep, that made up word again.
    How could he. It is so illogical.
    And he should be careful promises he can not/will not keep.
    Speaking of recording, I think it is incumbent upon you to to start recording everything, if you haven't done so already. You will want to have a doumentation trail if/when it becomes necessary to use one. Remember what I said. An addict will protect their addiction at all costs.
    That might not be such a bad idea. I'm not so sure you need more counseling though. You seem to be getting a grasp of your situation and how to proprerly deal with it in a healthy manner. You may need to process some psychologoical battle scars you've endured along the way.
    On your part? Definitely Progress. On his part? Definitly Insanity.
    Yes, But you're also having to process all this shit.
    There is a light. Either way, you'll come out a better, stronger, more resilient, confident woman on the other side of all of this.
    We all reach our breaking point, and when we do, we're done.
    It's some of both. Telling you that he hated you was just mean and cruel and nasty. And it's addict driven. If you think back about it, you were incredibly strong then. You buckeled down and did what you had to do for the safety and well being of your unborn children. That speaks volumes for your tenacity to rise to the occasion. Think about all the shit you have endured, and it doesn't take long to figure out, you're a pretty damned strong woman.
    Which may not be a direct violation of the boundaries, but definitely a violation of the spirit of the boundaries. No matter what you decide to do, go ahead and add it. Of course, he'll balk at that too, whine about the accountability app, etc. etc.
    Indeed we will. DO NOT give in. DO NOT let him beat you down. He is becoming more hostile and exibiting more anxiety because those things he used to use to control you are systematically being taken away from him. I think you've got this. You just need support from those around you to help reinforce it and help you follow through on whatever decision you make. As you continue to tighten the screws, he'll either break and hit "Rock Bottom" or he will give in to his addiction at which time, it wouldn't matter what you do. His addiction is fully in control.

    BTW, sorry for the delayed response. I fell asleep.
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  2. I’m not very knowledgeable about boundaries. My wife leaves our room and sleeps on the couch when she’s angry it doesn’t feel safe or if I’m moving too much or if I’m snoring.
    When she started sleeping there for good, about a month after d-day, I thought it was a boundary. But she also says she just sleeps better by herself and it’s nothing personal. I like sleeping next to her but I think it’s just to the point where she is done doing things she doesn’t like just to make me happy.
    A few years ago, she quit kissing me. This was before she knew what was going on so I couldn’t figure out why she stopped. I said, “You used to like kissing.”
    She just said, “Things change.”

    I think these may be consequences of my actions more than boundaries, but I took notice that things were not going to continue like always.
  3. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

    I did not keep a straight face! I was literally laughing and looking to the sky. Sidebar-- I was perusing articles about narcissism (after this incident) and I stumbled across one that tells you how to "get revenge" to a narcissist. Now this really is not my goal but it was a catchy article title so I explored. One of the tips was to flat out laugh at the narcissist. Ha, so I can check that off the list if I ever determine to be vengeful. (Don't think I will ever waste time on that though.)

    I discovered this article of yours a while back. At first I was mortified until I realized it was a parody. :p Very clever, sir.

    Thank you. I'm only recently realizing how much I second guess myself on these things. I have pretty high self esteem in general so I try to keep myself humble by truly considering criticism. Unfortunately most of my criticism has been coming from a man who blames me excessively for things.


    Oh I don't intend to. I even responded to him in the moment that were I to do that kind of thing it would be enabling. Which... okay to be honest this is a frustrating grey area to me. I've been mostly sex deprived through our marriage-- and most of the sex that was had was during the dark, barely conscious times in the middle of the night when I guess our primitive minds took over. So the notion of exploring sexuality more is appealing to me. Of course not in the confines of addiction. Not in the realm of just being an object for gratification that is going to aid in the continuation of his brain fog issues, and continue in his poor treatment of me.

    I keep going back to this. I don't know if he's really an addict or a narcissist with intimacy anorexia. I mean regardless of which it is, I definitely have to abide by boundaries. But I don't know if avoiding sexual content is directly going to have much bearing on the stubborn gaslighting/blaming situations. The more I read about narcissists I fear that could just be part of the narcissist playbook. If that's the case-- and it were to remain whether or not he has sexual thoughts (how much of this is a normal male thing?). Then I ponder if some shared sexuality could lend itself towards intimacy more so than appeasing his "addict". I mean yes he displays a lot of addict tendencies, but many of those are also narcissistic traits. How do I tell the difference? I do believe he has not gone into chatrooms for cyber sex which was the crux of how this all began. He never took the accountability software off of his computer. I do believe he is more fantasy focused than I am. I'm just wondering if I'm barking up the right tree.

    I don't plan to be sexual with him any between now and the end of this 90 days. And that's pretty soon. But then what? Experiment with just seeing how things go with sexual restrictions lifted? I mean I'm still not going to delve into crazy novelty to accommodate, not any time soon. Regardless of addict or not, my threshold for how much more toxic blame and hostility I want to take is limited. I just wish I knew there was a magical remedy to this.

    What evidence do you mean?

    Very. I used to pride myself on being the only one who could ride our stubborn quarter horse. And I always liked challenges. And I remember when I first met my husband he was very quiet and ... mysterious I guess you could say. He was so introverted it was a bit annoying but I also found it somewhat interesting and wanted to figure him out. And here I am now, in a scenario much more convoluted than I expected, over a decade later.

    What do you mean by recording? Documenting or literal audio recording? What kind scenario are you anticipating? This seems ominous but I'm all ears for safeguarding the future.

    True. A friend of mine thinks I'm wasting my time and that this will ruin me, emotionally and physically. I have read a book about intimacy betrayal and so I know the risks that go along with ongoing discoveries and infidelity. But it occurred to me that aside from the initial discovery (sex chatrooms), a lot of the way he treats me is not new. So I've been weathering it for years. No extreme illnesses have befallen me yet. And I carried twins to full term with natural birth so. Not to say I want to continue dealing with it. Since I now know he has been unfaithful I won't have any guilt if I do leave. When I talked with my friend for a while and she was pep talking me to leave him... I'm pretty calm about it for a bit but then thinking of a reality of him not being here did actually make me tear up a bit. So I'm not completely emotionless. And I do love him. If it comes down to needing to stop loving him, it will be a process. And then I'll be okay. But... at least at this juncture I don't feel that it's worth leaving over him perusing IMDB since it wasn't a boundary before.

    Thank you very much, Ghost.
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  4. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

    That is a bit heartbreaking. That makes me sad for you. I mean I don't know your story or her wound and her reaction may be perfectly valid, but it's unfortunate nonetheless. What is your story?

    I've pretty much embraced the mentality that I'm going to make the best of things. One way or another. If I stay, I stick to my boundaries and I try not to be too affected by the tempest of his tyrant tantrum tirades. (That's the best way I've determined to describe what happens when his lizard brain takes over. When he goes full blown crazy defensive of his fragile ego against any possible outside opposition.) I mostly need to steer clear of the storms and get him to be more affectionate and engaged and things are good. So I TRY not to let the fear and betrayal stick with me too much. Of course when I figure out new ways he's stuck in sexualizing things, it's triggering for me to put my wall up and disconnect and that process takes a day or so to get back to "normal". Probably not really normal but where I can enjoy my day and be productive and communicate with him as we usually do. I don't want to waste too much time being the withdrawn one now. He's already wasted so much of our marriage being the withdrawn one. It's weird how the tides turn.

    ... but then again there is talk of rock bottom and how perhaps he hasn't felt that yet. So is my approach ultimately the most efficient approach? Whooo knows. I just figure I better save the big guns for when it's very fitting. I want this process to be conducive to growth without pulling the plug prematurely. But I don't want to be a vegetable forever either. If he truly is a narcissist, I may be merely a vegetable to him. But one of the most awesome, highly functioning/achieving vegetables that are out there... Ah I digress.

    I want to be happy. If I'm married I will try to make the most of it until if/when I decide I no longer want to be married. I also may be the only carrot (ha! that's the vegetable!), or the only incentive, for him to gain true intimacy. I could imagine us breaking up, him slipping into old habits and either not venturing out enough to find someone new or finding a new person and knowing even better how to conceal his tricks. Hmm... I digress again.

    So if there is good to be gained from this process, despite the pitfalls here and there, it could be really good. Good for me, good for him, and the three little people we created together.

    Today while I was drawing I heard this song and the lyrics really struck a cord with me. I found the music video to share with my husband:

    To encapsulate the resonance: the family has a toddler and twin babies just like we do. So that was striking. After watching it I was full blown crying. Despite all this mess, I still haven't done much crying. Yay catharsis! A solitary release that isn't taboo on NoFap. :p
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  5. I’ve told my story in quite a few threads over the past year or so.
    I have had 3 journals.
    You can probably do a search for them and get a lot of my backstory if you want it.
    Early on it included a lot of whining :rolleyes:.
    Its a little better now.

    You seem to be very circumspect about your situation, which is worse than anything I’m dealing with.
    Good job being so strong.
    You are smart to depend on support outside of the relationship like your girlfriends.
    Just don’t let him convince you that his weaknesses are your fault. :)
    Kenzi likes this.
  6. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

    My vote? Both! But then again, there are always three sides to every story; your story, my story, and the true story. We all have our perspective on how we see things. Not that either side is lying, but their perspective is different. Nonetheless, I see it as both.
    Neither of these are normal. Neither the addiction nor the narcissism is normal.
    No. Sexuality doesn't lend itself toward intimacy. It doesn't work that way. Intimacy lends itself toward sexuality.
    Does it matter? I mean, what difference doesn't it make whether it is addict related or narcissist related? The behavior is unacceptable either way. I suspect it is both from what I have learned of your situation. The addiction fuels the narcissism.
    There are too many red flags to believe he is not PMO. However he is doing it, we may not know. But the signs certainly point in that direction. Remember, this is not a criminal offense. It is a civil offense against you which means it doesn't take beyond a reasonable doubt. It only takes reasonable doubt based on a preponderance of the evidence. At the end of the day, it is you that is the judge of that.
    Take it slow. Set the ground rules for post 90 days. They're your rules. You can adjust them at will. If you feel comfortable, proceed. If you don't, don't. You should never delve into anything crazy novelty until/unless it is something you want an/or are interested in. There isn't any magic. If there was, I'd patent it, and sell it, and retire a multi-billionaire.
    All the stuff recorded here. All the stuff he has confessed to. All the outrageous behavior. Create a documentation trail. If/when it comes time to cut your losses, you won't remember a lot of the details.
    It is rather a contingency plan, not a primary plan. Just what I said above. Don't record audio or video without his permission, for that may be illegal where you live. I don't know the laws where you live.
    Your friend tells you this only because she loves you and only wants what is best for you. As long as you understand the risks, it is your journey. The fact that a lot of the way he treats you is not new is troubling in and of itself. So why have you continued to weather the storm? No extreme illnesses have befallen you yet, with "yet" being the optimal word. Eventually, you will require anxiety medication, blood pressure medicine, blood sugar medicine, or any combination thereof. It will affect you physically eventually one way or another. Yes, you carried your twins full term and gave natural birth (a miracle in and of itself). Please don't use that as a gage of what's to come. Your friend doesn't have to live with it. You do. And you'd be correct. Leaving him over the IMDB thing would be irrational. But if that is something that triggers you, add it to your Boundaries & Consequences. Besides, it isn't the IMDB thing that is cause for alarm anyway. It's the collective pieces of the RED FLAG puzzle you've been piecing together this entire time.
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  7. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

    That proverbial "Rock Bottom" tends to yield it's ugly head when the Boundaries & Consequences are properly implemented. What ultimately happens is that all those things his addict was able to get away with are now no longer available to him without significant consequences. I often say "Rock Bottom" occurs when you have nowhere to go but UP!
  8. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

    I just saw this in my IG feed and I think this may be a big part of it:


    And I didn’t know about the PMO and I didn’t understand the extent of what was happening with all the gaslighting.

    When he focuses on my flaws— I mean I do have flaws so it’s not something that is completely contrived. It’s only recently that I’ve gained perspective that the way he uses that as a tool to take attention off of himself is wrong. It’s really confounding when he goes full throttle with his tantrum tirades. Even now that I know what’s going on, it’s kind of hard to be completely aware of what’s happening in the moment. Documenting it later is very helpful for me to process. And yes, to remember later.

    And when I was younger I had loneliness during which I generally felt I had to be self reliant. My inner self talk is not so much that I’m not good enough, but perhaps believing that someone consistently treating me the way I want to be treated is “too good to be true”.
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  9. Vixen

    Vixen Fapstronaut

    Thanks for validation. You’re right. It’s on my boundaries list. I still haven’t outlined specific consequences for every offense. Generally being disconnected and sleeping in different rooms. I feel this may be practice, dress rehearsal, for if and when we separate.

    @Kenzi provided me with some other interesting ideas. But I think if I try implement things like him sleeping on the floor, cold showers, no food etc he would refuse. That would really fuel his villainizing of me and give him a huge pity party. So I guess he would have to really piss me off. The “power struggle” is not appealing to me. Maybe it’s just work required by the nature of this beast but ugggh. I never wanted to be up someone’s butt this much as far as tracking his activity and such. Sucks so bad to not have trust.

    Just taking consequences as it comes with how I feel. I probably need to eventually try to make an objective pros and cons list (comprehensive of his new behaviors) about the value in our marriage.
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  10. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

    And that is the height of hypocrisy. Of course you have flaws. None of us are flawless. But to point out others' flaws while ignoring our own is wrong on every level. And if you believe in that sort of thing, biblically, it talks about these things, and I'm not going to quote scripture, but paraphrase, "Why point out the speck in one's eye while ignoring the plank in your own" or "He who is without sin cast the first stone" and not so biblically, "People who live in glass houses should not cast stones". The "...tantrum tirades..." can be directly correlated to his addiction, and generally occurs when one is active in their addiction. And it may not be completely obvious in the moment, but reflection when you allow your brain to settle down from all of the ensuing chaos, it gives you ease to think much more rationally and effectively.
    Well, I'm here to tell you, and I've watched you, "you are too good to be true". You are beautiful in body, mind, and spirit, and he has done so much to sabotage that belief. Don't ever let another human being lead you to believe that you are anything less. You are a princess in your own right. And you should be treated like one. All of you should. You were treated like a princess when you were courted where you not? This whole philosophical reaction by men, and to be fair, I was one of them, "I've courted her, I've captured her heart, now I can just relax and do whatever I want" which is pure horseshit and makes me want to vomit. If you were my Partner, I could/should/would be courting you every single day as if I was trying to capture your heart. "...til death do us part...". Unfortunately for me, I am becoming self reliant as I, in spite of my PMO, have been betrayed and abandoned all of my life. So I know your pain.
  11. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

    You posted this while I was responding to your other one...
    Just remember, the Boundaries have nothing to do with him. These are all about you. You are not doing that for him. He has a choice. He can either embrace and respect them, or he can ignore them and suffer the consequences for doing so.
    I do not have my Consequences in front of me at the moment (because my F'ing computer died with a Motherboard hardware failure). But I believe I addressed this. I love @Kenzi. She has a pure genius all her own and is super super knowledgeable on all things PMO related. Anyhow, I think I mentioned something about consequences needing to be relevant. What would a cold shower serve? Is that a consequence or is that a punishment. I see it is a punishment. As for me, I'd refuse to take a cold shower because that is "cruel and unusual" punishment for me because with my health consequences, I have peripheral neuropathy. It would be extremely painful and it would take me the better part of the day to recover from it. Sleeping on the floor would be doing me a favor. I sleep on the floor now instead of the bed because of my back. My back feels better and functions better if/when I sleep on the floor, so I seldom sleep on the bed. Sleeping separate from you would be a natural consequence. I don't think punishing effects such as sleeping on the floor, cold showers, and no food are. They are just punishments and in my view, would just serve to piss me off more, and especially exacerbated by my addiction. If you want the most bang for the buck, make your consequences as close to natural as they can possibly be. Because at the end of the day, there is a reason they are called "consequences" and not "punishments".
    As you should. If you would like, take your list of Boundaries, assign a consequence for each of them, send them to me as a first draft, and we will bounce them back and forth and reconcile them until you get a draft you can live with. I've done that for many others in the past, and it has worked well for them. Some of them, you've even engaged in dialog with here. BTW, the objective pros and cons list would be a great exercise.
  12. Kenzi

    Kenzi Fapstronaut

    Yep, that's where I was going with my suggestions... Just open up your mind... Don't necessarily use my suggestions... You need to look at your OWN situation and boundaries, but find things that match your needs to serve you... And your marriage goals.
    Consequences should match the boundaries and be appropriate.
    They can be anything from sleeping on the couch to eating a raw onion... But open your mind to possibilities, not just "divorce"
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  13. I used to do this until I read a quote that said ”pointing to another’s bad behavior doesn’t excuse your own”

    I thought... yep

    I read somewhere that boundaries are to protect you, not to control them.
    So it seems like your boundaries up to and including divorce would all be to protect yourself. The natural consequences for him are his problem. “Quit pmo or don’t, but this is what I’m doing to protect me”, kind of attitude.
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  14. Katrina Rose

    Katrina Rose Fapstronaut

    Amen. It took me almost an entire year to let go and tell myself whatever will be will be. A freeing mindset for me. I know he's the one losing if he goes back to PMO.

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