Restarting reboot.

Discussion in 'Partner Support' started by DesperateHousewife7, Nov 18, 2018.

  1. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    Well, "responsibility" in any situation is just a function of motivation of the stakeholders. I've already said that:

    It is not up to me to say whether or not is that a good or a bad thing, you have to know what you want. If just the idea of you taking an active part in his attraction to you is unacceptable to the point of rather being with someone else, that's fine. I'm not describing any "philosophy" of mine, I'm describing the inner physics of myself and what I think can be said about men in general.
     
  2. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Well of course you do. Trolling? Did I say anything about "trolling"? I don't think I did. No, I'm quite certain I didn't.
    Then WTF are we talking about then? If you have this oh so profound understanding, then why bother writing your diatribe? After all, that's what it is; a diatribe.
    My track record works better than any other known track record. What's yours? Oh, that's right. You admittedly had no solution. Here, let me show you exactly what you wrote:
    No. It's a shame that you felt you could just write whatever diatribe you managed to spew out of the orifice of your choice, and then get offended when someone like me, who BTW have crossed paths with so much ignorance before yours, that I just don't have it in me to argue with your ignorance anymore. My experience tells me that when you argue with ignorance, they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I don't have that ignorance, so I can't possibly compete with you.
    Yep, and since we're talking about "opinions" here, I think, as addicts, our best thinking is what has brought us here. The problem is, an addict's thought process is so fucked up, it is dysfunctional. Perhaps when you get to some reasonable state of recovery yourself, you'll be in a position to think with authority, and not with ignorance. I'm not saying this to be mean. I"m saying this in hopes you will reflect on it and read instead of lead. Your response is so very typical of an active addict.
     
  3. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    Now I see where your signature comes from; your post would get deleted if I reported it. For the second time now, you have decided to insult me and assert your superiority instead of saying anything of substance. I think it proves that you're more interested in becoming some sort of guru than figuring out a working solution and you should be ashamed of yourself. You said that I'm a typical addict; my goal was to describe what's happening on the opposite side of the relationship because it doesn't seem like nobody here has any idea. Therefore, I accept your inadvertent endorsement. I think I've expended enough energy at this point to make myself clear. Instead of waging jihad I'll let this sit and hope chicks and dudes alike can derive benefit from my blasphemous perspective. Good luck.
     
  4. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    A) You have no idea where my signature comes from
    B) My posts, your posts, anybody's posts get deleted indiscriminately; sometimes justified, sometimes not.
    Then go ahead and report me for, what was it now, I "...insluted me(you)..." LOL, did I hurt your feelings?

    I probably wouldn't have even responded at all if it wasn't for your...
    ...half ass attempt to passive aggressively insult me.

    And to the contrary. I've said a hell of a lot of substance and am widely respected in here. I earned it. Everything you said starting with the post that garnered my attention is an opinion. And when I, or anyone else challenges you on your opinion, you are so very defensive. Yeah, that would be another trait of addiction. But you already knew that didn't you.
    So on top of all your diatribe, you now know what I'm more interested in? This just gets better and better.
    That too would be another trait of addiction. To believe yourself that you know better "...what's happening on the opposite side of the relationship because it doesn't seem like nobody here has any idea..." is extremely arrogant considering the company you're in. Almost every sentence you write exudes that impression. Based on a preponderance of the evidence, I'd say I'm pretty much on track.
    Endorsement? LOL!
    Yep, you certainly have made yourself clear.
    "...benefit..." isn't exactly the word I would use. "...blasphemous perspective..." however, is right on target.

    I'm glad you decided to "...sit and hope..." instead of "...talk and mislead..." You see? I have hope for you yet. With time, patience, and a lot of soul searching, reading, and researching, I have confidence that one day you'll get there.

    BTW, it's "women and men". Not "...chicks and dudes..." Glad I could help. Now this discussion is over.
     
  5. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    I'm not interested in your condescending remarks, please keep them to yourself. Thank you.

    I apologize for this pathetic exchange; I should have ignored him right from the beginning, my bad. I knew some people can't stand it when someone else has a different position but this is a whole another level. He's written all that and still not a word concerning my original post?! Looks like I've kicked the hornet's nest.
     
  6. This is just plain insulting and unhealthy.

    First, we are not "chicks" so please drop the sexist BS.

    Second, therapy works. As someone who has studied psychology and plans to be a therapist one day, I can tell you that my husband would be nowhere without me and the therapy he has gone through. I have helped him connect the dots, understand where his addiction stemmed from, and now he understands what his triggers are. You don't get that knowledge without therapy and reflection.

    Boundaries are healthy, especially when with an addictive, asshole, lying, gaslighting (aka psychological abuse mainly used by psychopaths), verbal/physical anger, etc.

    In general: As a woman, we tend to be smaller than the men we are with. Also, the men we are with might very well be physically stronger. We can try to stand up for ourselves, ask our husbands to be faithful, but when we are met with verbal/psychological/physical/emotional abuse I very well think boundaries are necessary. That is not being a mom. It's being a human being.

    Don't you want to be respected? That's what boundaries are, it's stating your comfort zone, and wanting them to be respected. There is nothing mothering about it. Also, as to spying, we are driven to extremes from the lying/gaslighting/abuse. There is nothing worse than being gaslit (and that comes from someone who has been through some real bad stuff). If someone is going to try to make you question your reality and damage your mind, I think that is the vilest thing, and addicts are pros at abusing those around them to get away with their behavior. So spying is essential in some cases for the SO to know that they DO know what is really happening (it is a way to take back the power that the PA has stolen), and it also allows the SO to stand up to the abusive addict and call the addict on their BS. The addict, backed into a corner, often lashes out (verbally or physically depending on the person), and that can be hurtful/damaging/further traumatizing to the SO. Addicts are not the good guys here (they also are not villains, but they did make choices that hurt their partner, at times knowingly). You would probably explode because you'd finally be called on your BS and maybe you want to be in your addiction and have no one question you. Just hopefully you are single and are not subjecting another human being to this torture.

    Crying is NOT passive aggressive. It's expression of real significant pain. Your attitude towards women is sexist, and objectifying, as if a woman is supposed to fucking just be an object that listens to you, caters to your every whim, and allows abuse. Your "input" on this thread is damaging and I think it would be best to take space from this section until you're out of the fog and can see women as equal human beings.

    I am not trying to be mean but I am calling what I see, and we don't want this thread to be full of disrespect. We are all here to help an SO with the damage the PA did. Addicts need accountability to get better.
     
  7. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Spoken with genuine authority!
     
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  8. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    Thanks for actually engaging in a conversation instead of throwing random hominems (except the part where you wished for me to remain single). I'm sorry if my language is inappropriate - I've learned English mostly through the Internet and lack the nuance of native speakers.

    You've put the ideas into words nicely but I cannot help it - it's incredibly emasculating to be supervised and told what to do. Accepting that and keeping the balls intact at the same time just doesn't seem possible. This gestapo crap you're advocating must be counter-productive. I just can't see anyone being pushed to get their shit together by that.

    I think it would be better to show some respect for both sides and choose one of the following:
    1. Accept the other person and try to improve the relationship by increasing effort on your part
    2. Decide he's not deserving of you and make him pack his bags

    Does that make me sexist?
     
  9. Idk where you're from, but in USA, men and women are equal (or supposed to be). Emasculating.... Is it emasculating for a woman to ask to be respected? I.e. don't cheat on me, verbally abuse me, physically abuse me, or tell me what I have to do when I've been faithful.

    Emasculation... it's an idea I struggle with. I am sorry but if an addict chooses to act like a child that disrespects everyone in sight, throwing temper tantrums, I think that behavior alone is doing the emasculating... not the individual asking for respect.

    And Gestapo crap I'm advocating.... hmmmm... Okay. I am not advocating dictatorship, but rather equality. But here is the catch. The addict took all the power and made him and his partner inequals by taking power, abusing, and pushing their partner away, and trying to get their partner to submit. Now, to regain the balance there will be inequality in "power" for a while. Remember the addict is the one who lied/abused/ and hurt their partner (knowingly for some). The addict loses all power because they abused it. The SO because the PA has tortured/abused/traumatized their SO gets to set boundaries and consequences to create Safety. PA's, actively in addiction, are not safe -emotionally, psychologically, physically, verbally, and possibly financially.

    Not all PA/SO relationships have abuse in them, but addicts tend to be abusive in one manner or the other. So, abusers have to lose that abusive power, because they are hurting others (and themselves as well). So to get the addict to be healthy they need to submit in order to heal. Like the 12-steps you submit that you are powerless over your addiction and need outside help.

    Here is the thing you're missing.... us SO's have done EVERYTHING to make the relationship work (pre and post DDay). We tried addressing these issues head on before knowing, but the addict abused/gaslit until we got quiet. Then we find out, and we work our asses off to learn about addiction, support our partner's getting healthy, but rememebr... they are addicts and are probably not really wanting to be healthy. Once the fog lifts, the addicts then have a choice. Face the damage, own it, submit, get healthy, and rebuild life (with your SO).... or run away, cause more harm, and ultimately end up alone and probably hating the avoidance tactics used because now they are alone with no support having to face the tough reality of Their Inactions.

    It's not on SO's to do anything. We did not create this mess. The PA is 100% responsible for their addiction and actions/inactions. SO's merely were tricked/abused into this horrible relationship and now because they love the PA they try, but it won't work unless the PA also tries and gets healthy.

    Not deserving and pack bags..... Okay, well, we SO's have talked many times about boundaries and consequences. And some of our consequences are kicking the addict out. The "not deserving" I have issue with that wording because we aren't wanting to shame the addict, and we don't want them to feel unloveable (often they do feel unlovable and that's part of their addiction), so it's not that it's about deserving but rather the addict is not healthy enough to be in a relationship.

    There is automatically an imbalance when we are talking about mainly healthy individuals (SO's) and extremely unhealthy indiviudals (PA's). Until both are healthy there will be an imbalance.
     
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  10. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    Just to take off the 'sexist' label that's on my forehead again: I live in an egalitarian society and agree 100% with its principles.

    I've never thought of PA as being anything more than a self-destructive habit before; it has never occurred to me that the negative effects of use can go beyond loss of time and energy*. It seems that you're suggesting it's a mental illness which is pretty fucking terrifying. Interesting. Thanks for writing that.

    EDIT: * and ED :/
     
  11. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    OK, before I just didn't have it in me. Now you're just irritating. Since you are whining like an addict, complaining that I am "insulting you", blah blah blah, I'm going to treat you like one. My points are NOT intended to be mean or personal attacts. They are intended solely to help you recognize where you are just blatantly wrong. Like it! Don't like it! I don't care. This IS the very last time I'm going to engage you because quite honestly, I have better things to do with my time, like helping people who want/need help, which is also why I said earlier that I just didn't have it in me. People like you are exhausting!
    True.
    Anybody that tells you they were successful in fixing PIED in two weeks is full of shit. It's bullshit. The brain simply doesn't have the ability to heal that fast any more than a broken bone does. Show me empirical scientific evidence to support this supposition. Not some random bullshit posted on a forum by a bunch of sex addicts.
    A couple of things here:
    Three months later does not mean he's cheated. Three months later + A laundry list of RED FLAGS, does! This isn't a court of law requiring "beyond a reasonable doubt" This is a civil matter requiring "a preponderance of the evidence". A preponderance of the evidence supports he is cheating.
    90 days IS NOT "...a completely arbritrary time block..." 90 days is a generally accepted practice by all reputable sexual addiction treatment centers and recognized by CSAT (Certified Sexual Addiction Therapists) as the defacto standard for treatment. Not recovery, but treatment Recovery extends into the years, and is really not "recovery", but a "remission". Do you have any empirical scientific evidence to support your assertion that "...90 days is a completely arbitrary time block..."?
    That would be correct. But it doesn't matter what the implication is. It matters what the perception is. And the perception is wrong. That's why we, and I think I can speak for most people here, are very adament about telling her (the SO) that it isn't her fault in every conceivable way possible. I drive that point home because I don't want to just say it. I want them to feel it, embrace it, and believe it.
    It is a generally accepted understanding about the nature of addiction and how it works. We don't need to ask smokers because we already know this to be true about addiction.
    Really? I'm going to address each of these independently on their own merit.
    It is to an addict. To one in recovery, you embrace it. But moving right along...
    Is that right? I've never considered or entertained the idea of "...punched(punching) in the face..." Maybe you have. And probably others as well. But most men, by and large, aren't of the "...subconscious belief in a guy's brain that no conflict is resolved until someone's got punched in the face..." That's barbaric. Do you have anger issues layered on top of your addiction?
    I'm not certain what your point is here. What an astute observation.
    Then explode! As an addict, you're acting like a little boy. So if you act like a little boy, you should be treated like one. I've preached this ad nasueam: "Consequences are NOT Punishments" They are solely intended to insure your own health, safety, security, and well being in your environment. Explode and throw a temper tantrum. If I was your Partner, I'd turn around and walk away laughing at the level of immaturity you were exhibiting. I wouldn't have thought it was funny while I was the addicted one doing it. But now that I know and understand addiction, how it manifests itself, that's precisely how I would react. I just wouldn't dignify that type of behavior with a response.
    I don't consider "crying" a "...types of passive-aggressive behavior..." Crying is a perfectly acceptable emotional response and it clenses the body, mind, and soul. You'd do well to read up on it. I assure you, I've witnessed grown men fold up in a fetal position, myself included, and cry like a little baby. It's easy to talk shit about crying when you're in your addictive state. It's not so easy to talk shit about it when the realization hits you of the collateral damage you have caused with your outrageous behavior. If you have no empathy, you damn sure better find some. Incidentally, there is NOTHING "...passive-aggressive..." about it. And if you went through the kinds of hell I've witnessed individuals go through, you'd do the same, and to steal a quote from "The Green Mile" with Tom Hanks, you'd probably being rolled up in your own fetal position "...crying like a school room sissy..." There is no shame in that. All of us did it at one time or another. The whole idea "big boys don't cry" is bullshit.
    So what! So is your fucking addiction. Get over it.
    ...and she had no part in him feeling "...like a complete peace(sic) of shit for not being able to perform..." This is ALL on him. She had NOTING to do with it. Incidentally, have you given the least bit of consideration of how she has racked her brain, wondering "WTF is wrong with me that he can't get an erection with me"? "Does he not love me"? "Am I not attractive enough"? "Am I not any good at sex"? How much as she felt, what was that phrase, "...like a complete peace(peice) of shit for not being able to perform..." was because she thought, she was led, gaslighted even, to believe it was her that was the problem? If he feels like a piece of shit, he sorta kinda earned it.
    So don't. You can't speak for me. And I think I can speak intelligently for most men who are in a state of recovery, you can't speak for them eather. You would be the exception. Not the rule.
    That would be correct.
    I have one. You've more or less threw the baby out with the bath water on that one, so I really don't have anything else to add. But I will tell you this. If you do come up with a solution, patent it. People would pay good money for it if it works.
    Yeah, well that worked for your aunt and uncle. For most addicts, ultimatums don't work at all. But if you have any empirical scientific evidence to support that supposition, I'd be interested in seeing it. Addicts typically don't respond to ultimatums. How is that working out for you BTW? Ultimatums work for you? In my state of addiction, if you gave me an ultimatum, I'd told you to go fuck yourself.
    A way. Not "...the way..."
    ...and that would accomplish what? It would accomplish him "having his cake and eating it too". It would accomplish him being enabled to continue engaging in his addictive sexual behaviors. And it would result in her continued betrayal, manipulation, and pain. Wrong answer.
    ...and you were objectifying her and fantasizing about her, not for your interest in her as a human being, but the opportunity to get into her pants. That is in the mind of an adolescent. And in your case, a fapping adolescent well on his way to addiction.
    I'm not a woman, and even I find this patronizing, manipulative, and insulting. It appears to me, you have ZERO respect for women. Is that what you want? A woman who is so submissive to you, you have ZERO respect for her? Here is a more compelling question. Why aren't you treating her like the princess that she is? I mean if she is good enough for you to stick your penis in, isn't she good enough to be your princess? I sure as hell think she's earned that title in the relationship. As for me, mine would be the "queen".
    Precisely, and speaking of catalyst, you could use one. You can say whatever you want. All of your responses are indicative of someone who is very premature in their recovery. I knew that you would stike a nerve with women who have been betrayed which is in part why I responded the way that I did.
    As such, I am over it and done with it. Do whatever you want with this. Have a nice day and a beautiful weekend wherever you are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  12. noexcuses

    noexcuses Fapstronaut

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    if you're serious about this part, well done! Your command of English is impressive. I would have assumed you were a native speaker.
     
  13. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    The lengths to which you go to make me look like a bigot and/or idiot are truly astounding. But at least you're engaging my words and I don't think we can get anywhere better than that!
    Of course you know what I meant by that.
    I highly doubt that you would if the ultimatum included the continuation of your marriage.
    I've explicitly said that if that's a requirement, she shouldn't be with the guy anymore.
    I've mostly thought about me and her spending quality time together, not about fucking her.
    While you've been super mature, Mr 57-year-old :emoji_smile:
    U2

    P.S. here's a bunch of words you've spelled wrong
     
  14. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Don’t sweat it. You do that well enough on your own.
    My wrists hurt and typing on a phone is very painful for me. Forgive me for all of my shortcomings.

    I tried to extend an olive branch and this what you did with it. Have a nice day!
     
  15. Qnb42078

    Qnb42078 Fapstronaut

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    I don’t know why I let what you said offend or insult me . You HAVE to have thick skin to be in ANY group forums , never mind a forum about porn addiction and the trauma that comes from it . I’m not a “chick” I’m a wife of 18 years and a mother for 20 . I guess the experts on porn addiction are totally of base when they HIGHLY recommend accountability software , accountability partners and therapy . Without 2 out of those 3 I know for sure I would no longer be married to him . I’m sure some come on to hear us SO speak and are horrified to think of being “ mothered “ but I can def tell you that MANY PA have stated on here and through PM , that they NEVER even thought to look at the other side of the coin . Then there are those , like you that choose to not read with empathy and throw daggers , wether they are harsh or not , we take em as such . I’m sorry that you feel the way you do . But I go on the dark side of the forum to where they guy relapses every other fuckkng day and just “ doesn’t know why “ , that’s not work , that’s not good enough . BUT ILL NEVER SAY THAT BECAUSE IM NOT IN THEIR SHOES FIGHTING THAT SIDE OF THE BATTLE . SO , unless you actually have researched porn addiction and betrayal trauma as much as most SO have , you don’t have a right to call any of us “chicks” or accuse us of mothering , cuz god knows I wanted nothing more than to stop mothering my man child when he kept putting his hand in the cookie jar . Thank god he doesn’t have the stance that you do ( even if your stance was 100 % true , I thank god my husband WOKE THE EFF UP . :)
     
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  16. DesperateHousewife7

    DesperateHousewife7 Fapstronaut

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    You’re right about the time frame thing, I know there’s isn’t any set time frame. It’s kind of like when you order something online and it says it’s coming in 7-14 business days- I was hoping for 7 but it’s looking like it’s gonna be 14.

    The tactics used to try and fix the problem are tactics recommended by the professionals. Therapy and boundaries (which basically ARE ultimatums if done correctly) are recommended by professionals because they work.

    I can tell you for sure what does not work, at all, ever. “Just seduce him”. I know that for a fact because that’s what I’ve attempted to do for the last SEVEN years. Starting from saving myself as a virgin just for him to enjoy at 19 years old when he married me, and on from there in the form of lingerie, role play outfits, constantly asking him what he’s into or trying to find out myself what he’s into so that I can try it for him, always giving him a BJ before sex, always keeping myself perfectly made up, climbing into bed and trying to touch him, massage him, fondle his genitals, kiss his neck and ears (he said it felt annoying), pressing my naked butt up against his crotch (he shoved the blanket between us) and after a few years when that seduction didn’t seem to be working, I moved to more drastic measures. I started a strict diet and lost any excess fat I may have possibly had, I started exercising 5 days a week until I reached “fitness” level body fat, and then I went and had my body cut into and spent weeks healing in pain just so I could have 32DDD breasts for him. I got spray tans every other week, nails done, makeup done, hair done, always wore a sundress at home for him, etc etc. and guess what? Nope. Nothing changed. None of it worked. You know why? Because even if he did move on to me from porn, it would just be a temporary distraction and substitute for the porn. So, I understand and appreciate the advice and I understand that you probably assume I’m not trying to be sexy for my husband but I’ve tried until I was blue in the face. I had every other man checking me out and hitting on me, even some women propositioning me and complimenting me- but not my husband. Because it has nothing to do with me.

    In terms of mothering them, that’s the last thing I wanna have to worry about. I have children to mother. This is the LAST thing I want to deal with or have anything to do with but my husband CHOSE to put me in a situation where now I have to worry about this stupid bullshit because I have to plan for my future. It’s either going to be married to him as a healthy man or it’s gonna be divorced from an addict. And if it’s emasculating to be monitored, I understand that but in my opinion- I think it’s MOST emasculating to have a beautiful wife who always wants sex, and to shoot her down every day because you’d rather jerk off to porn, don’t you think? I sure do.

    Anyway, maybe that will give you a little bit of insight to how some of this works.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  17. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! Very well articulated and spoken like a woman with the level of self-confidence I had hoped you would achieve. Well done My Lady! Well done!
     
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  18. DesperateHousewife7

    DesperateHousewife7 Fapstronaut

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    Thank you, Ghost. I just know how damaging it is to allow any woman to believe that her man is cheating in any way, shape or form, because of her not being enough. It isn’t true, and it doesn’t resolve the problem. All it does is break her self confidence, and amplify the issues. I don’t want any woman thinking there was anything she could have done differently to prevent her man’s porn addiction/ cheating.
     
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  19. _.._

    _.._ Fapstronaut

    After reading the responses - whose honesty I appreciate - my position has not changed. I'm not sure what sort of woman do you think men dream about but I can assure you it's not Nurse Ratched. The idea that subjecting your partners to psychiatric treatment is going to make them love you is absolutely crazy (unless your husband has mommy issues/submissive fetish). I wouldn't be surprised if the next post here read Told Husband To Wear Burqa And The Bastard Refused, Divorce Him? The word "gaslighting" is used so much in this section, one might think it's the Victorian era again. Stop overanalyzing every interaction and trying to assume control. You can't burn the castle to save it.
     
  20. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    WTF is your malfunction? You can't stand it and you have to exercise your addicted brain and traumatize this woman repeatedly on her own thread? This is not your thread. It's hers. Stop hijacking it to promote your own self-serving, and in my view, fucked up, agenda.
    These three passages from your post? It's Gaslighting. Perhaps you'd do well to go learn about it because you are a perpetrator of it. STOP! Just STOP! It's not enough she has to put up with the incessant Gaslighting from her Partner, but you too? Oh HELL NO!
    One might think many things, the least of which is "...Victorian era..."? Yeah, this very sentence was Gaslighting too. It's obvious either you don't understand the concept of Gaslighting, or you don't give a shit. Or both.
    Stop telling her what to do. She has every right to assume control. It's her life. It's her Boundaries that are being violated. And "...You can't burn the castle to save it...", that's Gaslighting too. You continue to blame her for her reactions to his actions. I don't know whether you are drunk, or high, or just that damned ignorant (maybe you're her spouse trolling her thread), but your message does absolutely nothing to help her and everything to exacerbate her trauma. Just STOP!
     
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