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Making a Better Marriage

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by mrtumnus, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. petros1982

    petros1982 Fapstronaut

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    Yes! Exactly!
    Love that you brought this up. What a great aim
     
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  2. I would caution against comparing severity of addiction. It's far more nuanced than quantity. IMO, it has more to do with manageability. Addiction becomes more severe when the life of the addict becomes more unmanageable due to physiological brain changes. How has use of the addict's drug escalated? Does the addict want to stop using the drug but yet continue to do so? At what expense has the drug become the priority? For example, I'm not an alcoholic, and so if I choose to I can enjoy multiple glasses of wine once or twice a week. The same can't be said for the alcoholic, who despite an extended period of sobriety, cannot go back to drinking wine once or twice a week (acknowledging scientific advances not typically used in America that have allowed alcoholics to continue drinking while reducing if not eliminating the addiction, but let's assume a premise of just 12-step interventions for my point).

    With the porn addict, it's the same concept. Not everyone who consumes porn is an addict, although this is an arguable point as I believe the level of denial with consumers of porn is an epidemic, but I think it's a safe assumption. So in the case of drinking or even porn consumption, crossing the line into addiction has less to do with frequency and more to do with the effect the drug has on the person's life. It can be quite subjective, but there are widely available assessments on the internet that can help determine if one is a porn/sex addict or not.

    This is why the length of time to reboot can be a bit arbitrary. Conventional wisdom and experience of those who have successfully recovered from porn addiction have led to the 90 day period of time, and I don't discount that. However, there are so many qualifications and behaviors that can extend that period. Let's say I do a 90 day hard mode reboot - no PMO. However, for those 90 days I've been fantasizing, viewing p-subs, leering, or any other behavior that satisfies the same reward center of my brain that porn did. Even if I made it 90 days doing that (an impossible feat), my brain would not be rewired. I will not be rebooted. I will have been a dry drunk, and relapse is guaranteed. This is why recovery is far more involved than just stopping a drug.

    To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your personal assessment regarding 30 day being enough, as that would be presumptuous and impossible for me to do. I'm married and have never attempted hard mode. For that reason, my period of rebooting I believe to be far greater than 90 days. For the sake of argument, I'll say it's 180 days. The longest I've gone without PM is 126 days, so I could argue I've never experienced a successful reboot. I believe it's 100% possible to reboot while engaging in sexual relations with an SO, but it's important to be cognizant of what our minds are doing while engaging in intimacy. If we're living out porn scenes or using our SOs as a means to replace what we've lost with pixels, that's not healthy. It's not connection, and connection is what matters. Connection is the opposite of addiction, which is why I will never do hard mode in my current circumstance. You're doing well and I'm just offering things for you to consider. Believe me, I've stepped on countless land mines throughout this process, and if I can help others avoid doing the same, that's the most I can hope for.
     
  3. I hesitated to make the comparison, but decided to leave it, mainly because it was a factor in our discussion. But I totally agree that it is generally not helpful to compare yourself against others, especially in terms of addiction/sin/whatever.

    For me, it was very helpful to accept the label, as it allowed me to use the tools of addiction recovery without feeling out of place. I think it's almost irrelevant whether your a 'clinical addict' or not, if it's hurting someone or you just want to change, and you keep relapsing, you'd go through a similar process.

    That's why I follow you! Your posts are always so detailed and thorough, and really help me challenge my own thinking and recovery process. Thanks :) :emoji_beers:
     
  4. Day 26

    Going to make this one quick, as I'm having a busy day. I should probably post when I'm not at work o_O

    Met with a friend for breakfast. We spoke a little about my issues, but he didn't really seem interested in talking about it. Mostly shooting the breeze and catching up.

    Yesterday went well, no urges. However, I did find myself again craving physical connection. Wasn't triggered or anything & no feelings of resentment. I'm still trying to figure out what a good balance of expressing these desires to my SO vs weathering them and not burdening her. I can see myself expressing desire for more constantly and burning her out.

    Had a nice time last night with the wife practicing her Spanish while I ripped some CDs. Maybe some of you would find that boring, but I find it relaxing. The kids were having fun guessing what Spanish words meant.

    I feel: Happy that it's Friday and looking forward to no plans tonight. Probably will end up Netflix n chilling.
     
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  5. Day 29

    Sneaking up on 30 days :) Had a decent weekend. Friday night did indeed involve Netflix. Did a puzzle with the kids on Saturday, followed by a trip to the pool (was on Dad duty). Maybe not the best idea for someone in recovery; there was one woman at the pool that was rather stunning, so was a bit difficult to behave myself. But I managed to turn away/look away/play with the kids/keep myself occupied. I really would have preferred doing yard work, as the lawn is getting a bit high. But the SO was out at a shower and some other errands.

    Sunday was a nice service at church. The music really got to me in the morning. The Lord is My Salvation is such a fantastic song.

    Sunday afternoon & evening was spent at the in-laws. I was honestly not looking forward to it, as we had just spent the entire last long weekend with them. But, my wife wanted to, so I bucked up and we went. Everything was fine, until I got triggered by some family drama (not PA/SA, just bad attitude). I was irritated the rest of the night. I think it was because my SO left the house for a while, then came back and immediately said something negative. It was something from someone else, so it wasn't like she was being negative on her own. But that just set me off (internally). I eventually got over it, after going to bed later. Whatever.

    Off to a new week. I have double-therapy today (PT & counseling). I'm excited to finish out the 30-day PMO challenge, but a little hesitant to think of what comes next. My SO is likely still dealing with some betrayal trauma and not sure how to respond to me. She doesn't want to live the rest of her life waiting for the next reveal. All I can do is live consistently and demonstrate growth.

    I feel: A faint longing, a need to be less self-focused
     
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  6. Acky31

    Acky31 Fapstronaut

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    Just remember not to have any expectations of your SO when coming out of this 30 day challenge, as she may be somewhat apprehensive about it. Putting a time on it may feel like there is pressure to "perform" when the challenge is completed.


    Have you tried meditation to try and become more mindful and in the moment? It takes practice, but can help.
     
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  7. Haha, yeah. I've definitely tempered myself on that. I'm actually planning on just continuing with the challenge as long as she lets it. I think of it (at the recommendation of my counselor) as 'giving her power back'.

    I've been praying in the mornings, which helps. Although, it often gets interrupted by kids getting up and asking for breakfast. Wouldn't be a bad idea to do a little meditation exercise in the middle of the day.
     
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  8. Day 30

    I feel good today. I suppose I always do after a run. Exercise was a big part of my life for a long time, but it was always externally motivated (track, cross-country).

    Yesterday went relatively well. I was distracted looking for a TV to buy, as ours is on the fritz. Also here on the forums a bit. But I got my work done at least, and had my double-therapy in the evening.

    I feel like my counselor keeps trying to make me feel shameful. But, after thinking about it a little bit, he probably doesn't intend to. My behavior has been shameful, so that's all on me. Talking about it will make me feel that way. The question is, what will I do with these feelings of shame? I've chosen to accept them and move on. Makes it easier to talk about with my counselor and my SO.

    We talked about toxic anger and self esteem issues. I don't think I struggle much with anger, although I do get resentful, perhaps an expression of anger. He brought up an interesting question - if marriage were contractual and had to be renewed annually, what would your wife do? Of course, you'd have to ignore all the external factors like kids, house, jobs, etc for this thought experiment to be helpful. Then the other side of the question is whether you feel worthy of her love (should she renew the contract). Interesting, and I think I lean toward a negative view of myself. But I wouldn't say I have low self-esteem.

    Should be a good day today. I'm cooking dinner tonight (ragu & salad is the plan) and will be on kid duty. I'll be on my own this evening, which I typically would have consistently used to PMO. But I am holding strong and don't feel like I will have a problem.

    I feel: energized & awake.
     
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  9. DE begone

    DE begone New Fapstronaut

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    Looks like you're going about each day the right way. You're reflecting, working on positive routines, and being mindful. That's all good. Your SO may be noticing a different and better you, if not now then soon. Time heals, so take each day as they come. Love your kids, love your SO and love yourself. You're doing well, keep it up
     
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  10. Thanks! I for sure am noticing a difference. My mood is much better than usual, and I feel capable of doing more. I appreciate the encouragement.
     
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  11. Day 37

    I'm switching my tracker back to PM-only mode. Not saying anything happened, but that's really what's important to me at this point.

    Had another good day yesterday. It's amazing how much better life feels when I'm not in a PMO cycle. I'd come home most days describing them to my wife as, "meh". Could also be that work is currently engaging.

    Work went well; I'm not doing any active development at the moment, just doing code reviews and documentation. Still feels productive, as I'm helping others improve their software.

    Came home early to watch the kids and allow the SO to get out on an errand. Took a short nap, then cooked dinner. I ended up making spaghetti bolognese. This is huge for me. I haven't cooked more than grilled meats or eggs & bacon, really ever. The past couple weeks have shown me it's really not that hard, just takes a little time to pick something and make sure ingredients are available.

    I didn't have any urges to PMO while my SO was out for the night. I kept myself occupied cleaning up the house, ripping some DVDs she needed, paying bills, and looking more at options for TVs. When she came home, she offhandedly asked if I had been looking at porn. I denied it and told her what I had been doing instead. What else can I say? Building trust is hard. Or, maybe not hard, but requires patience and consistency.

    Got to bed pretty late and slept fitfully. It was hard getting up to do my morning routine, but I did it. I scrolled around on my phone first; I think I need to kick that. Removing my phone from the bedroom would probably solve that. Not only is it just a waste of time, it is a temptation waiting to happen.

    I feel: Tired but anticipating dinner with some friends tonight
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  12. Acky31

    Acky31 Fapstronaut

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    I can totally relate to that, trying to even read in the morning is hard work with kids around. I tend to meditate in my car, just as I've driven in to work (it's about the only place I know I won't be disturbed!)
     
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  13. Day 38

    Work yesterday went fine. Had PT later and then some friends over for dinner. They are getting married and my SO will be making their cake for the wedding.

    I made the mistake of sending my SO a Ted Talk that I had watched in the morning - "The Sex-Starved Marriage" by the author of the book with the same name. This opened a can of worms, as I sent the link to it over text, with a little context. This opened a can of worms, as she felt compelled to watch it, while managing all the kids, and feeling overwhelmed with some job changes coming up. The video is good (I think), but it doesn't cover PA/SA, and she felt shamed by it and that it enabled/excused addict behavior. This devolved into an argument. I still struggle with codependency, and really react poorly to her when she is frustrated. She tends to lash out with sarcasm, which really gets to me. I really tried to listen, but it just got to be too much and I retaliated. I regret it now, it never helps.

    It was difficult (for me) to get through our evening with friends over. They stayed a long time, and my SO acted like nothing was the matter. I just wanted to retreat and disconnect.

    Our conversation later was still somewhat negative. I tried to listen, and heard the following:
    • You don't love anybody
    • You're just doing your "recovery" for yourself
    • What do you need from me?
    • Everyone's needs (kids and mine) come before mine
    Clearly, she is experiencing some betrayal trauma, and needs some care, both from me and herself. She is usually a rather strong and capable person, especially emotionally, but this was a weak time for her. She felt that over our entire marriage, she has been working on herself and getting better at loving me, while I've been getting my kicks elsewhere. She doubts that my recovery will last.

    These continue to be difficult truths to hear, but I know I need to get better at just listening to her and affirming her. I did not do that last night. I apologized last night and this morning, but it will take some effort to move on and do better in the future.

    I think an action item for me is to better vet the resources I send her that I think are helpful. Or even not send anything over text, and anything I want to share I can do so in-person.

    Hope for a better day today. I'm not sure whether I should attempt to revisit the stuff we talked about last night or let it go.

    I feel: frustration with myself, but still resolved to do my recovery for me
     
  14. petros1982

    petros1982 Fapstronaut

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    This sounds familiar to me. I had a problem with that same video and Mrs P about 3 years ago. I can look back at how I was then and see that I was intently focused on the sex side of our relationship. I had the idea that if we had sex, then it would prove that we were still in a good place. In our recent conversations I've learned that the opposite was true - that she felt like I was putting it all on her doorstep and she felt pressured to perform and when she did "put out" it actually drove a bigger distance between us. That video in particular told her that I was blaming her for where our marriage was. There is a much more detailed reality to that, but there was enough truth in it to cause her pain. I'm now trying to be her friend again. I have to say, I'm sucking at it and it's hard, but it's better than it used to be. I'm humbled by how hard I find it to listen and understand her before jumping in with my side. I find the urge to correct and direct her to be really strong. A combination of trying to follow nofap, respect an agreement for no sex and follow God also make the desires in me more painful. I tend to look away from my base nature more often than not. But when I do, they leak out in turns of phrase, brief scowls, stonewalling, fapping and other subtle ways of punishing her for what I'm not getting. I'm also a worse dad when I'm trying to protect my sense of value. I've found recently that taking the risk of complaining outright about what's important to me can bring resolution instead of resentment. Often its enough to feel heard. Even if the fight is harder and I have to swallow bitter truths about myself. Also I get to a point where I better understand what's eating me. it is not always right to land this on her though. My counsellor is good at helping me clarify my thoughts. If I feel like I can't wait till my next session, I pick up the phone to a listening service like Samaritans.

    As regards the "everybody's needs come before mine", this is a hard truth that I'm currently battling with. Im coming to believe that as a father I am charged to provide for and protect my family. Protection includes protecting them from my shadow self - that monster that lurks inside. I am charged to lead my family by serving them. By picking up as much struggle as I can and then smiling back at them to show them that everything is okay. This is hard. And it may be the case that I will never get regonition for it.
    For me, I'm currently trying to meet some of my needs by rebuilding my male friendships and start opening up about some of my struggles. My other dad friends seem to know instinctively what this is like. they are also better at it than me, so I can alternatives modelled. I know I had made myself quite isolated, so this is important in my life, may not be for others.
    Her doubts about your recovery lasting are very difficult. I'm with you in that pain. I want my wife to see the good in me, not the weakness - to believe in me. From what I read in your journal I see a person committed to growth and committed to his family.
    Predicting whether the recovery will last is akin to living life looking for when you're going to die - you miss all the life in between.
    My commentary is raw and charged because it represents a struggle going on inside me right now and blind spots that I have had and wish I could have seen earlier. I apologise if none of this applies to you and is entirely my projections. It seems to me that you are doing really well in your recovery and I admire that you guys have that honesty and closeness. I wish you every success in this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  15. I personally find nofap both extremely helpful, but also triggering. I've taken better care to not read things that look like they will stir up jealousy and resentment. But to your overall point - the struggle is certainly much bigger than just porn. It's the challenge to love selflessly, like Christ loves the church. AND do it while not feeling like you're getting what you want or need. This is another place where nofap is a mixed blessing, because of all the different perspectives and views on here. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate being challenged in my views. But it's not helpful when I see stuff like, "you're not getting what you need, just walk away".

    Just to be clear - I was writing what my wife was feeling. She felt that she was supporting everyone else without her own needs being met. But if you're saying that the husband's role is to care by taking on more to support the wife and do it with a cheerful attitude, I agree! It is part of the unconditional, selfless love that I am striving for. If we can do that for people we love, how much easier will it be to do for our neighbor! Isn't that the next step?

    Sometimes I feel like the burden of giving up yourself is too heavy to bear. But then I remember the burden of porn addiction, and it is far weightier.
     
  16. You are really getting to the heart of stuff here. I am super-encouraged by these sorts of insights. The call on disciples of Christ is very high indeed, and we cannot do it on our own. Just as he teaches us to love, so will he teach us how to die to self so that we might love better.

    I am excited to be on this journey with you!
     
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  17. petros1982

    petros1982 Fapstronaut

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    I misunderstood. My bad.

    Yes!

    I absolutely apologise if this is the message I'm putting across. I respect the work and the honesty you're showing here and know very little of your life. I was aiming to express support for the hard conversations that you are opening.

    Thank you for this. cast my cares on him!
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  18. Day 39

    Yesterday was better. I ran in the morning, solo this time (usually run with my dad).

    My wife sent me a frustrated text about our conversation the previous night, and I responded by calling her. Text is too easy to mess up. I think I made things better, by assuring her that I wasn't resentful, angry, or dwelling on any potentially hurtful things she said. I tried to affirm again that her response was valid and that my reaction of anger was inappropriate and unhelpful. Our interactions later were much more cordial and connected.

    Work was fast, some issues came up that will push back a deadline. Management is not happy, but at least we caught bugs before any releases got out. I came home pretty exhausted.

    Dinner with family, then wife was out at a church meeting. She brought our daughter along, so I was home with the rest of the kids. I read a few books with them, then threw in the towel and played the Switch while they watched. I try not to do that too often, as I feel that more interactive things are always better, but I allow myself to indulge sometimes. BotW is a fun game, and my 2yo even enjoys watching and commentating on what's happening.

    Conversation with the wife was more subdued tonight, more intimate. We basically tried to affirm each other and were honest with where we were. I still feel like I'm in a good place, like I can love my wife & family regardless of what she is doing for me. We'll see how that determination holds up. I'm determined to improve my reaction the next time my wife needs to vent or is frustrated with me.

    Oh, and I had a wet dream last night. I decided to wake up my SO and let her know. I've never done that before, but I feel like revealing little things like that will help refill the 'trust bank' for the future. I've never told her about any other times that's happened (not often, but still).

    I feel: At peace, content.
     
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  19. No worries, friend! Everything you said was helpful, I just wanted to clarify because it sounds like you read me wrong. I didn't construe anything you said in the way I was talking about. :)
     
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  20. Day 42

    What an exhausting weekend! It's hard to believe it's already Monday. I guess that's what happens when you take a day trip to another state. We went to visit family on Saturday and got back around midnight. It was a good time, and thankfully we all got to sleep in on Sunday before church.

    I feel like I haven't been quite as reflective lately. I have been feeling much better after deciding to sacrifice my desires for sex and physical intimacy. It seems to already be paying off, in terms of better mood and overall contentedness. There will still be struggles and battles for sure, but this does seem like the right path. I feel well-supported by my SO in this endeavor.

    I'd like to start thinking about how to grow/improve myself next. I think my approach toward work and efficiency could be the next target, much like @daemonswithin. I don't know that I'd be as rigorous about tracking it as he, but at least trying to build better practices around my internet use at work. If I had to guess, I'd say I average around 4hr of real work per day.

    Kids had a sleepover last night, so got to have some quiet time at home. School will start this week, so it was a welcome 'calm before the storm'. Although, sometimes I prefer the regular schedule of school, even though it does tend to get more busy.

    Today was a bit abnormal - was in at the office in the morning and out to lunch with someone in town. Didn't get to my regular work until 2pm. But I'll be able to get a few things squared away before the day is done.

    Should be a good week. Not much going on this upcoming weekend, which will be nice after the kids start school and my SO starts her new position.

    I feel: Happy
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019

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