Do women have an easier time at this than men?

This part right here, shows that on one hand you understand how prostituted women are penalized in the trade by the way it works as a system that commodifies women's bodies and consent, while rewarding lower boundaries and risky activities. But on the other hand, you seem to think that the women selling themselves to entertain a luxurious lifestyle are the statistical majority, and frankly they aren't. Unless you have something that proves otherwise besides your own limited personal impression.

You responsibilize the women in the sex trade without really understanding the barriers preventing them from leaving, and the barriers preventing them from integrating in normal society.

This is also based on the assumption that prostituted women sell themselves in order to live lavishly, while in fact most don't. They are doing what they do in order to survive, you seem to forget that most people initially enter prostitution for survival not luxury, and many enter it as minors.

If we focus on the reasons behind women's initial entery to the sex trade, we'll find mental trauma, domestic abuse, precarity, drug addiction, homelessness, prior sexual abuse...etc. Under these circumstances, it's hard to say that most prostituted women are really 'choosing' what they're doing, let alone judge them for it when what they are doing is mostly opting for survival (homelessness and poverty) or only acting on a self-harm impulse (drugs or psychological consequences of sexual abuse).

This is based on the same previous assumption, that most prostituted women do what they do to live a luxurious lifestyle, and a misconception about what awaits women who exist prostitution.

Women who spend years in prostitution have no job experience, and typically no professional training. The jobs they can apply for are therefore those with maximum hours and very low pay. These aren't the jobs you can rely on to have a stable life, combine that with the common problems of drug abuse to which they won't be able to get rehabilitated from, and the psychological trauma (PTSD and dissociation) they accumulated during their years in prostitution which will certainly interfere with their ability to integrate into a normal life and fit in regular society, and you get very much similar material conditions that led to these women entering the trade in the first place.

Hence why many women find themselves back as quickly as they left. The women in the sex trade are very familiar with this reality, which explains why so many don't see any purpose in leaving the trade.

Of course you can't forget the pimps in all their guises and how they control the women in prostitution, by taking a huge percentage of their income to prevent them from accumulating money and pay whatever debt they have (because debt is also a factor), and using violence to threaten them and keep them obedient.

Well, if you had read what I said up to this point, you would have gotten your answer.

@Freiherr von Münchhausen tell me I'm curious now. Did you experience something like "going soft" because of unexpected "cold treatement" from a prostituted woman ? What else did you witness during that phase of your life and that you haven't talked about ?

If most Johns were caring enough to lose boners when a woman gives them a 'cold treatement', then why PTSD, dissociative disorder and drug use are so common among prostitutes ?

Why studies have shown that men who buy sex have more in common with sexually coersive men than men who don't ?

To give cradit to your thought, my impression on the women can change based on what set of circumstances led them to that point, albeit not significantly.

Believing that the ethical burden is the same between a prostituted woman (because of what she 'choses' to do or if she doesn't leave prostitution) and her buyer (who leverages the woman's financial need to use her as a sex commodity), isn't that far from believing the ethical burden between an abuse victim (who stays with her abuser and feels attached to him) and her abuser (who enacts the abuse and violence) is shared equally and that no side is more condemnable than the other. Which is an absurd thing to say if you understand the power dynamics and towards whom the harm, degradation and dehumanization are directed within that relation.

Depending on whether it was any of the usual conditions associated with the majority of cases, or a specific set of motives related to more fringe cases like curiosity, or the misconception that prostitution brings in 'easy' money, my perception of prostituted women can only change from people forced to do what they do in order to survive, to people naive enough to believe they are 'built' for a very hostile environement that will bring them 'lots of easy money'.

I can't really harshly condemn prostituted women, in the end of the day all the harm proper to prostitution is absorbed by them. They are the ones being commodified, being used and abused by clients. Realistically, they all find out the money they get from that 'line of profession' isn't 'easy', and for the money to be anywhere near significant, they have to endure their boundaries being reduced to unlockable features and be violated repeatedly.

The circumstances of prostituted women have no effect in my perception of the johns. Because the harm done to these women mostly comes from them and their perverse , depraved tastes. Regardless of the prostituted women's circumstances, the buyers would still be men willing to disregard women's fundamental humanity and utilize them as living sex dolls. The buyers are the reason PTSD, dissociation, self-harm and drug abuse are prevalent among prostituted women.

Sure, some buyers may have compulsions like sex addiction. But that in and out of itself doesn't explain why they're willing to buy women, having sexual addiction is one thing, but feeling like your sexual addiction warrants you the right to buy somebody as an outlet is certainly a byproduct of entitlement. Without that mindset, no man would find it in him to purchase a woman no matter how strong his urges are.

Both sides can be beaten with sticks like Psalm said, but I don't think it's fair for the intensity of the beating to be similar as both sides have different motives, different priorities and the amount and severity of harm they face is vastly disproportional. And for reasons I already explained and elaborated on, one side deserves to be 'beaten' more frequently and harshly than the other.

That's the hill I'm always going to die on. Sorry not sorry.

I know my temper and passion are visible though my lines. I'm not ashamed of it the least, on the contrary. As for your question, even if these are completely irrelevant to my political position, I'll still answer and say that I definetly hate men who view women not as people but as objects they can use, control or abuse. My hate knows no boundaries for those.

So basically your regret comes purely from a place of self-interest, and not out of empathy for what women endure in the trade or out of care for how the existence of this industry affects the way men view women as a whole, including the ones in your life.

That's rich coming from a man who implies that my reasons to oppose prostitution stem from hatred towards all male individuals, including my male loved ones.

 

No, buddy. Because no business would subsist without a strong, endlessly regenerating demand, fighting demand is more effective. No business would succeed without selling a huge amount of products, and no product can be sold if nobody buys it.

 

According to the estimates of the government's statistical office here, the average lady of the night earns between 2x and 3x the national average monthly wage, claim corroborated by a local prostitute support organisation (staffed by obese feminists).

That kind of money is not enough to fuel a grotesquely opulent Richie Rich lifestyle but it's enough to buy nicer things than most. If you also have another part time job (most girls work 2-4 days a week), you're bringing home more than your average brain surgeon. That's not too bad I think.

I said quick money, not easy. F*cking 50 guys a month is nothing to be scoffed at!

I can tell you that I never had that feeling until I was informed that women actually offer these ... services.

I wonder what you imagine is happening. Does slow missionary fall under the "perverse and depraved" rubric in @she-dernatinus' book?

Most guys just want a pretend gf for an hour, that's it. There are some that like to get peed on for example but that's certainly not the usual.

If you're dying to know, I'll tell you.

I originally started to test out dick pills. I had ED and I wanted to find out what can be done but I didn't have a girlfriend. So I decided to visit a professional.

I was nervous and to mitigate I overdosed on the medicine. That turned out to be a mistake since it actually works counter-productively, at least for me and I couldn't get hard. So we ended up kissing and conversing instead.

Since then, I figured how much to take and didn't have erection problems. I continued going after solving the ED question because I started liking it a lot.

I had only one bad visit which I still don't understand. Before anything began, even before payment, she suddenly told me, in a very angry tone, that she had a change of mind and I needed to go. I didn't ask why or what happened and left. She could have been on drugs or just crazy, I don't know.

But overall, the whole thing felt awesome. Having sex with pretty girls is not an unpleasant experience, what can I tell you.

Absolutely. Regret doesn't have to mean feeling sorry for yourself or somebody else.

If you think that the sex business is bad for women, you should try telling women to stop prostituting themselves.

After you do that, you'll find out, as many other feminists did, that the prostitutes actually want to keep doing what they're doing, nasty as it may be.

To wrap this up, this time for good:

I agree that coercive prostitution is bad, obviously. And there are no doubt such scenarios. However, I wouldn't say it's a significant percentage, let alone the standard which is what you seem to believe.

The main reason why I consider prostitution (and porn) bad is something completely different. It destroys men's motivation and drive. Easy access to sex creates a population of lethargic slobs. By extension, the whole civilization becomes pathetic.

Which feminists should actually celebrate because in a world of weak men, the females can finally take over and establish a 1000 year gynocratic empire!

 

Wait a minute.

First you said that there would be no available statistics under your government since prostitution is illegal where you live. And then said that the income of the average prostituted women wasn't 'all that great'.

Now you dismiss both of your claims and brandish some outlandish stats that seem to leave many key details out of the picture.

A lot of these groups (especially when they tried to push for legalization in countries where prostitution is illegal) have been found to be operated by pimps. Just look for the case of Douglas Fox and how he used his influence to skew the report of amnesty and push for legalization.

Many of the so-called pro-prostitution advocacy groups had been run by pimps and it's not surprising that they would try to embellish the image of the sex trade, seeing as how they have a vested interest in keeping it ongoing. They also use the feminist persona to spread their message to young women, some of them have even been used as front for human trafficking.

They are not the credible source you think they are.

I can send you a DM containing all the details I've accumulated until now, do you want to see that ?

That's on one hand, on the other hand you seem to dismiss that drug use and pimps, among other factors proper to this domain, reduce the women's income drastically (when it's not that far off from the average monthly salary) . And of course the estimations given by this group about the average income of prostituted women don't actually disprove the fact that the women doing prostitution out of luxury pursuit are a minority.

Then explain why research has shown that sex buyers have a lot in common with sexually coercive men. Or why PTSD and drug use are so common in the sex trade.

I have been asking you to do that over and over again, yet you don't want to address the elephant in the room.

 

Women will never be seen as human, let alone establish a gynocratic empire, while men still have the ability to use them as sex commodities.

Allowing a trade in which mostly men have the capacity of buying and using mostly women sexually will impact how men as a whole view women as a whole, which in turn contributes to and amplifies the dehumanisation and devaluation of the female class as a whole.

 

More like a living flesh light who they can pay to use however they please and on top of that, would have to pretend to enjoy every minute out of it and camouflage how deep down she would rather not be there.

That's what the survivors say and has been supported by scientific research.That's not even close to be a pretend gf my dude.

Prostitutes generally aren't the ones who ask their clients to perform these favours, it's the client who request these acts (like not using condoms, fisting, urine and feces, incest play...) and the price for these practices tends to be higher as it's more psychologically demanding for the women.

Perhaps, they pretend like they like it as a part of their 'job'. Yet deep down feel extremely repulsed by it, which brings us back to why drug use, dissociation and self harm are common coping mechanisms among prostituted women.

That would make a lot of sense.

Still, after saying that you're clearly showing that male depravity isn't that uncommon in this line of 'profession'.

 

It looks like based on this conversation that your 'whoremongering' past is quite the sensitive topic. . You're calling sex buyers disgusting coomers, which means you're also calling yourself a disgusting coomer.

Interesting choice of word, because when you're frustrated at yourself for not succeeding at retaining money, or for wasting your time and energy, you don't describe yourself as 'disgusting'. Disgusting carries with it a strong judgemental connotation, you are evaluating your own participation in the act more than the material consequences ensuing from it. Which begs the question, if all your 'regret' comes from a pragmatical ground, then what is the point of employing a self-deprecating, judgemental word ?

Your past engaging in prostitution is something you're deeply ashamed of, which makes me wonder whether that regret is purely based on the effect engaging in prostitution had on you and how it impacted you personally.

 

I assumed there wouldn't be much if any black/gray market stats, let alone from a government agency. I also assumed the numbers would be deceptively low for the reason I gave. That's why I didn't bother looking it up until now. Turns out I was wrong on both counts.

Except in this case, that actually rather helps my side of the argument, don't you think?

That's not an elephant, not even a donkey. That the involved parties would be a little mentally abnormal should not be surprising. Selling and buying sex is not "just a job like any other" and it will be surrounded by a lot of unique circumstance. You don't need to include crazy fetishes in order for it to be true.

In fact, fetishism, when it is provided, probably creates a bit of "professional distance" compared to vanilla sex you'd normally have only with someone you actually love. You've probably heard that some prosties have a no kissing policy - that is the reason.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

It seems it is ...

Not with that attitude!

Pimps don't want prostitution legal, neither do prostitutes. They don't want to pay taxes and they want to remain anonymous. What they want is decriminalization.

It's because this is a kind of fake life when one follows the instincts that would lead to conquest of matter in the state of nature but in this reality it only drains without giving anything in return. This is not hidden to the subject. He continues with the process because he has given up on life and accepted defeat. It's pathetic and disgusting. This is the smothering loser mentality that we are up against.

You can slide into my DMs @she-dernatinus if this is your desire. In fact I refuse to post here, to continue the constant repetition of the already stated despite @UnholyConfessor using "advanced persuasion methods" to keep me arguing in this thread. I don't understand his motives.

So this time I actually actually mean it, not like the last six times I said it. I WILL NOT RESPOND. Even if you accuse me of killing your favourite puppy, @she-dernatinus, which no doubt you will. I know that your real life occupation is sharia law prosecutor.

No, @UnholyConfessor! Not the pliers again! Noooo

 

I can move on to the bamboo sticks if the pliers stop working.

 

I did for sure, and the reason behind this isn't to create a 'professional' distance it's to create a mental distance. Prostituted women all want to limit the amount of physical and mental intimacy they have to indulge in with their clients as much as they can, and the drug use facilitates dissociation and the preservation of that mental distance, that last boundary they want to keep to themselves.

Pimps want to legalize prostitution, it's a no brainer. Decriminalisation is always the first step to legalization.

Does that mean you are mentality unwell then ? That you are suffering too ? Why do you think prostitution can never be like any other job ?

I think, based on our interaction, that your feelings surrounding your partaking in prostitution are quite complex. Your motivation-based reasoning is only a part of it. The other part, the one you're only alluded to but not said directly is that you know that prostitution is a place of suffering, of exploitation and degradation, and more importantly to which extent.

Therefore you try to avoid thinking about your contribution to all of this as much as possible, and whenever someone tries to confront you with it, you become defensive and try to convince yourself and others that the harm, malice and selfishness are equally shared between the two parties, hence why you bring up the possibility of prostitutes making 'lots of money' and them being mostly motivated by luxury pursuit. Even though none of this means that their misdeeds should be put on the same scale as their buyers whom definitely feel enjoyment out of objectifying women and using money to devalue and degrade them.

 

@Freiherr von Münchhausen You've handled yourself well throughout the entire debate brother. You cannot have an open discussion with someone who only studies and regurgitates radical feminist ideology and enjoys playing the victim daily. The moment she calls you "buddy" you know you struck a nerve, she will attempt to demean you this way so that she can see perceive herself as superior.

@Psalm27:1my light She doesn't care for these, she labels them as niche, because it doesn't fit her radical feminist narrative. "Women are always the victims and men are always the oppressors" These categories are a growing issue amongst men and I'm glad you brought that up, because just as the male abusers in porn, these female abusers are also a cancer to society. All these abusers should have consequences for their actions.

The bolded area is you showing your true colours. Only a truly miserable and sick person would wish someone to be guilt ridden for the remainder of their life. I think your entire presence on this forum is pathetic. I took a 2-3 minutes to see the overview of your post history. Everything for the last year or two, on a porn addiction recovery forum no less, is about feminism, how terrible men are and how much of a victim women are to the "patriarchy". You post threads in an attempt to bait people into debating you, knowing full well that you have no inclination to actually hear the other side, which is what makes you so insufferable to others, only to rinse and repeat the same old garbage you believe in.

Not in one single post, do you mention of your own struggle with porn, no encouragement to others who are struggling with porn addiction, no tips or pointers to help them out. The only constant is the same vitriol towards the men of this forum, with the same old broken record baiting tactics, the same ill intent and misguided anger.

I truly pity you. Take a look at yourself for crying out loud, you spend your time on a porn addiction website to only talk about feminism, baiting people, being hateful and disrespectful towards men, even ridiculing them at times. Learn to cultivate a minor amount of empathy for people and their struggle, not just women.

Unlike you, I hope one day you will be free of all this anger, bitter and misery that drives you. If you don't, you will see your years pass you by, single, regretful and resentful at the way you spent the precious time of your life.

Wake up for your own sake.

 

Unfathomably based response. I read it with a smile from ear to ear. With all the talk of poor moderation on the site recently, this whole thread strikes me as something maybe the mods should take down. The current debate has NOTHING to do with what OP originally asked and hasn't for like 20 pages (I contributed to that I know) and it's devolved into Freiherr basically being bullied for the original sin of sleeping with a prostitute, something he obviously regrets and is trying to move past otherwise he wouldn't be here. If belittling other users and essentially wishing that they fail isn't against the rules, then it damn well should be.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - some of you need to learn what this actually means.

 

Oh god, same old same old. You know that the man-hating accusation has always been a tactic to silence women ever since the period of first wave feminists. It's nothing new really and certainly not something that nullifies the criticism feminist women are bringing up.

Research and studies have actually shown that the patterns I am speaking about are in terms of sexual misogyny in porn very much real and consistent. These are facts, not my own words, I didn't not make this out of thin air. You can browse the front page of any porn site and the main page will confirm that exact pattern. This is not the product of my imagination or me being hyperbolic.

As for empathy for men, I can tell you that any empathy I may have won't prevent me from pushing back against the BS I am seeing here that's said about women.

I frequently see men in this forum making misogynistic comments, insinuating that women should be put back 'where they belong', or straight up making degratory comments about women, justifying toxic behaviour such as cheating, or even being attracted to girls far younger than them, teenagers particularly.

You can't speak about empathy while trying to paint me as the callous one for pushing back against these men in particular. You can't paint me as a man hater either for noticing male behaviour patterns and pointing out the motivations behind them, while also showing how many of these motivations are rooted in a profound disdain for women and seeing them as lessers. You can't bring the conversation about how porn is harmful while omitting the fact that it's vastly and mostly misogynistic and contributes to be devaluation of the female class. Discussion around the harm to of porn can't be limited to physiological dysfunctions and compulsory behaviour, the harm of porn isn't only materialized in the realm of individualistic issues such as these, it transcends that and reaches a large scale.

That's my point of view and why I act the way that I do here, so I hope at least you have the empathy to understand me. You just have to put yourself in my shoes for a moment here and everything will fall into place.

 

She trail blazes most threads like this when she jumps in, pushing the conversation to the only subjects she’s comfortable with.

Thank you for responding the way you did, everything I said in my previous post stands and you’ve again re-confirmed it.



I’m not debating you on openly talking about the sources of porn. Solely focusing on that is a problem though. What I take issue with you is that you do not have a single post of encouragement, no attempt to share your own story, for someone to find common ground with you. Anytime I question you on whether you even are a porn addict or not you dodge and yet again, even in this response you don’t even touch upon what I wrote.


I find it interesting that you ask others to put themselves in your shoes, when you have zero regard to do the same. Even more so, you wish someone to suffer for the remainder of their life, on a mistake they owned up to, which as I said before takes a sick and miserable person to wish that.


I do have empathy for you, as I mentioned in my previous post, but you make it damn near impossible to do so. Because you blindly charge like a bull does a matador. You do hate men, I’m not saying that to “shut you up” as you mention, I’m calling a spade a spade. You have no empathy for men, only resentment and anger. Read your own posts, you are blind to your own reality. So stop with the same boring response of victimizing yourself and pivoting on you claiming to be this arbiter of justice. You’re not.



Your idea of transcending is berating other users/addicts and labeling them as misogynistic.



Food for thought, best of luck to you.

 

Yes I've definitely noticed this. I have no idea how they get away with it when others get the mods on their ass for much less. Female privilege?

Not a reply to me I know but made me laugh. The brilliant thing about altruistic ideology is it lets people act like bullies and shield themselves from criticism because they have a supposedly pure motive. Kinda like Anti-fascism, a good idea on the surface, co-opted by bullies who want an excuse to beat people up and destroy public property. I wouldn't be shocked if some people come away from these threads actually more sexist than they were beforehand.

 

That's another subject but you have to admit that while some of your observations about me may be correct, it surely doesn't mean that the points I am making are wrong. I could be the worst woman in the universe and everything I said about porn culture and the whole sex trade would still be correct. I could utter a thousand paragraph of encouragement each day of the year and everything I said about porn and prostitution would still be relevant. I could also share my story ever since I was five and everything I have said until now about and prostitution would still be factual.

So what is your point here ? Do you have a problem with my previous 'missteps' ? Or do you have a problem with the ideas I am bringing to the table and using that as an excuse to discredit everything else I said previously ?

 

Which addicts exactly ? Any addicts or addicts that display a particular set of beliefs and motives ? Any addicts or addicts who indulged in some shady acts in the past that directly dehumanise and degrade women ?

I am far from being the only woman who pushed back against these men. Other female users did too and some went ever farther than I ever did and used crude words. God bless them for not taking any crap and refusing to be reduced to silence out of fear of being labelled a man hater.

There are some men here I would never disrespect like Kropo or Meshuga، despite our disagreements.

 

Only a woman could actively wish endless misery on a stranger over the internet for sleeping with a hooker and somehow think they are still the victim in that exchange.

 

Only a man can ignore how another man used money as a leverage to exploit women as living flesh lights and focus on the woman who described exactly what he did back to him.

Also...

Only a man can ignore how another man vehemently justified and only call for mod action against the women who pushed back on him while exempting him from that.

See how easy that was ? It's not that difficult to make that kind of arguments.

 

I think mods are concerned about what the outcome of taking action against a person like that would bring, under current social norms in the west.

Also, it’s easy for these kind of people to act like bully and act as if they do no wrong. They believe themselves as virtuous/can’t do any harm.

Have you even read even a single word of what I wrote so far? Or are you just so hell bent on charging away. I told you in my last post I’m not debating you on the sources of porn, nor on the sources of prostitution. I’m not denying you on that, although I would say that in todays day and age more and more women are using this to their advantage. There’s bad people on each gender. You seem to be stuck on “men are always at fault”. I told you before, stop playing the victim. I’m not trying to silence you. I’ve had a debate with other women before, I can find common ground with them and they have shared their story about their husbands or their own addiction and the difficulties they have gone through. They support members of this forum. Not solely women. There are certain aspects of feminism I agree with, as there are certain aspect of the manosphere /MGTOW that I agree with. You find no flaw in feminism, you’ve said this to me in the past and you find all fault in the counter culture that arose because of radical feminists. Both extremes, which you are part of, are toxic.


What I’m highlighting is, the fact that you are on a porn addiction forums, only parading the flag of radical feminism. Attacking and spreading your hatred of men and trying to pull others into your own misery. You have a clear example which you aren’t even addressing, you are content with another’s suffering. You don’t try to find any common ground, nobody is telling you to send thousands of encouragement messages, but perhaps read success story here and there and provide some tips. Share your own story so people can relate to you, not to enforce your views. I told you before, my issue with you is that you only berate and parrot the same drivel over and over again. You don’t even try to understand the other side and you continue to play the victim again and again, even now you still think I’m trying to silence or discredit what you said. You missed the entire point of what I’ve been writing about.


As I mentioned before, your anger and misery drive you. You see nothing else. Your treatment of other members here is what makes you detestable, not your radical feminist ideology.

Needless and generalized statements from both of you.