Addiction

BB7378 · Jul 22, 2018

I think some of the comments/opinions directed at timmy0110 where a bit harsh, he may be a bit younger but still finds himself in an awkward unwanted situation with pmo. He's opinion might be different to the next PA but we are all here just trying to be more aware and trying to make our own situations better in anyway possible. And I would have thought most PA,s would be looking at the world in a sexual way so ogling would have been a part of the problem imo.

PA and SA surely they fall under the same category. Yes sure there's a load of facts and statistics but porn is sex. A lot of SOs compare viewing porn as infidelity and i would agree so it is in essence like actually being physical with another woman. So just like having relations with another woman.

@Sadgirl I think its like timmy0110 said it is ultimately your decision. Each case is individual and is up to the SO and PA involved in that situation. Are you married, did you have children, how long, how many lies, how has the PA treated you. Ultimately it is your decision you know all the deciding factors and only you can make the call.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

Jak3 said: ↑

@TIMMY0110 I don't think you understand how men or marriages work. I can see that you are ignorant of what it's like in a marriage. Your comment on how men always look and habit look away is so far off from reality. That is not true at all. There are plenty of men, although probably hard to find that do not objectify women. Noticing attraction on a very low level in terms of reproduction, sure that happens a lot but still not every guy does it. We have complete control over whether or not we stare at someone. It's a taught reflex, not a natural one to objectify woman. Hell, I'm living proof! If ever hear someone talking about a woman that walked by, it actually pisses me off.

Men who do not fantasize that way do exist but that point is superfluous in this thread. Sex is not the biggest weakness of men. That's crap, weakness depends on the person. What would be a way to lure me in if you wanted to take me or something? A woman? Fuck no. Flash my favorite car in front of me and you got me! What about serial killers? They're documented men that are enticed by killing. Even if they are sexually natured it's not the sex that's their weakness, it's psychopathy giving them intense urges to treat people a certain way that has to do with their own experiences.

@Sadgirl , I understand that it can be incredibly difficult to be intimate with the person that hurt you so much in that way. I also don't know your situation very well. But even if he is committing to being sober, if he's not healing the relationship, then maybe not having sex with him is a good thing. Hopefully it can show him that he needs to make you feel ok and connected before something that intimate happens. It will probably still be hard to be intimate with him. If he were to get high off of you, then he'd be intimate only because he wants what you can do for him. You're not a drug, you're a human being worthy of love. It's great that he spent get a high off you. That means he can truly be with you and love you. Maybe not having sex is what you need right now. I say go with whatever you need in the moment and see how it makes you feel.
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Thanks for your insights Jak! For me I love sex, and I love being desired. But I feel like his garbage now that he dumped me for P. Yeah he wants me now, but P is gone so it just feels gross. How can I be with my husband when he actively enjoyed so many women while I was upstairs only wanting him.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

AnonymousAnnaXOXO said: ↑

I struggle with this at times.
for my husband it wasnt about the women but rather used P to get the orgasm to escape. We've talked many many times on this and its still hard for me to comprehend but he is genuine in his answer.

I also was adventurous in bed but now am more reserved...

Also please dont take what Timmy said to heart about men... those are myths and overgeneralizations. My husband is actually writing a response because my husband doesnt and hasnt ever had ogling issues nor fantasied about other women. In all honesty i actually notice attractive men but my husband seems oblivious to eceryone around him (he is usually so caught up in auto pilot or thoughts he doesnt notice.)

Have you talked to your husband about the whys of the addiction? Like i dont know how much you know but ill give examples from my own husband

I understand he got addicted because of his abusive mom and a divorce. He was a a child and only had access to porn, he didnt have access to gambling or drugs. My husband was addicted to porn and video games to escape the abuse. In that sense i am able to aproach this with compassion. I dont blame him for getting addicted but i do struggle with him doing it in the relationship when he promised me it wouldn't be.

Then weve talked about the why he didnt stop or tell me, which came down to he was in denial and deeply in addict thinking and he learned to lie at an early age to avoid negative consequences. That helps me understand the behavior. It still hurts, but it helps me understand.

Then there is a certain company my husband followed on IG so if it wasnt about the women then why follow those women specifically? We figured out my husband followed those type of girls (dyed hair, tattoes) because it was a reflection of what he thought he deserved/was supposed to be with. He never wanted to actually be with a girl looking like that but because my husband was a skater boy delinquint from a broken home he figured that type of girl is what he was supposed to be with and that type of girl he miggt fit in with better. I am the exact opposite, come from a home of marriage, love, and i am blonde, blue eyes, hour glass, and one tiny tattoo i got with my sister, and come from a comfortable family financially.
So i often struggle with that IG stuff but understand why he looked at that type and in all honesty its sad... sad to think he figured he didnt deserve better....

Then as for vids... there are certain things i cannot do in fear that he watched those things... i can only do it on the rare occassion. But my husband is very vanilla ... like same position and he is happy with it. I am adventuous but my husband called me a freak and other things when i wanted to explore sexuality (this was before i knee about his addiction) and so not only does the porn hold me back but his judgement holds me back as well.
Personally i think with time, communication and trust building we can actually have a more exciting fulfilling sex life, but its going to take a while to get there.

I stay because i love my husband and see his potential. Should this habe ever happened? Hell No. I set boundaries before we got together. He knew porn was a health issue for me (anorexia its a huge trigger to relapse for me which i did and had to go back to treatment because of all this) and how i felt about porn and he still did it. Because it was an addiction.

For me i know i still need to process further the lying. I think thats truly where alot of pain is for me. Its not aboit the girls anymore because i truly get it, it wasnt about that for my husband he tried to get the PMO over with and did so in less than a minute. But the lying that is the real betrayal because had he told me the first time he slipped we would have worked on it and i would have helped him get help...

So maybe talk to your husband and try to understand where the addiction came from, understand what he had access to during rhe beginning of the addiction which could explain the why it was porn, and see if he can explain to you the process of what it was like and why he chose what he chose. I know that is what helped me get to a half ok place that i am today, and if you read my journal you will see that i am a wreck most days... but i keep trucking on because i love him.
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Thanks Anna,
Yes we have talked A LOT about his addiction (that he refuses to believe was an addiction-it was an addiction to M he says :/ ). And about how he too would use it as an escape. How he avoided his emotions by turning to P. I understand this. But he used sex (self sex) enjoying other women as an escape. And devalued me and ignored me for YEARS because of it. When I was sexually free and adventurous and now that part of me is dead with him because he enjoyed every fantasy under the sun with other women things that I would have gladly done with and for him. That now I refuse to do because he enjoyed other women-airbrushed women-butt bleached women doing these things. So it is like so tainted for me now. And that is a part of my sexuality that I loved, and now I can't even share it with him. That isn't fair to me. A sexless marriage and now that he wants me HE IS TAINTED. Can any PAs chime in on this?
And my husband would edge for hours to these girls. While I was upstairs.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

TryingHard2Change said: ↑

Great comments @AnonymousAnnaXOXO and @Jak3! @Sadgirl, sorry you has to read the comments from @TIMMY0110 .. ignorance abounds in his comments for sure--but he is young, not married, part of this current world's culture...it is understandable.

..

@Sadgirl: you are grieving .. you are grieving the death, the loss of the marriage you thought you had (the marriage you deserve). Grief is a whole long, messy process. I don't know where you are on that difficult journey ... but I know the last step is Acceptance.

Acceptance of what happened. Not ok'ing it or justifying it or thinking it wasn't a big deal. Here is a quote I just found:
"Acceptance doesn’t mean that everything is okay and we feel happy. Rather, it means that we have the opportunity to make our peace and find our own personal calm."

Acceptance might mean the marriage is over.
Acceptance might mean you accept what has happened and are cautiously able to move forward with him.

If it's the latter..part of accepting it means if he looked of 500 women or 5,000 or 5 million -- that was then; it was SSSOOO wrong; you both acknowledge that; he has worked hard at recovery and building trust with you again; and you are able to have hope and vision for the future of your marriage. (even if it's just a tiny sliver of hope in the beginning)

..

Every sentence I write is inadequate to capture just how difficult and complex this step of acceptance is. But acceptance is the doorway to moving beyond grief. (I believe my wife is stuck in the depression stage right now.)

Hang in there @Sadgirl.
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Thank you @TryingHard2Change appreciate your insights very much. Right now I am grieving the sex life that I was robbed of. The desire I was robbed of. And really, my youth that I was robbed of. And realizing that I don't think I could ever have a fulfilling sex life with my husband because of all the things he enjoyed that I would or have done that now feel so tainted. Like I could never do them again because he has enjoyed better girls because he chose them over me before.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

TryingToHeal said: ↑

At first I didn't want sex with him after I found out. Then about 45 days into it, we started having sex and then we had a lot of it, for months, a ton. That lasted until he lied (about non-PA stuff). Then I took a step back. Then after a while, it would go back to our new normal. Then he'd lie again (non-PA stuff). And it would go farther back, that became a pattern until eventually I didn't want to be intimate. Not just sex, but not intimate at all. That's where I am now and I don't see it ending. I'm just so fucking hurt. This latest thing, he insists he is not lying about but I feel like he is. We are at a standstill and I can't get over it because I feel like he isn't telling the truth. He will not budge that he is. And maybe he is, I don't even know anymore. I feel like my gut instincts are broken ever since this whole PA thing happened because I apparently have no clue who I was married to for 14 years. Anyway, I don't want to have sex with him now and haven't in about 2 months. I feel bad in a way because I know that means he is getting nothing but that is his own fucking fault. I don't even want him to hug me. I'm extremely hurt because of what he did and incredibly sad that this is my life now.
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Oh gosh this completely mirrors what I am going through. Initially we had sex every single day. Sometimes twice a day. Then after 6 months and another disclosure I stopped wnating to have sex. I noticed that initially I would O like up to 20 (seriously) times per session. Then it got to be less and less. So psychological. And now after disclosure #6? I haven't touched him for a month. And I think we only had sex once the month before. And no O for me. I won't even sleep in the same bed with him. He has stolen so much from me.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

JustSadPorn said: ↑

I guess I'm sort of the opposite of you on this particular aspect of my husband's PA. Finding out that he was actually looking at thousands of bodies, none of them for more than a couple minutes at a time, it was easier for me to view this as a drug addiction.

If he was scrolling though 100+ videos, he wasn't looking critically at each one, and thinking to himself, "Hmm, her boobs are bigger than my wife's, but her voice is a bit shrill when she's moaning. So, on the balance, I think I still like my wife better than I like her. I will not cum to this video, and instead I'll go spend time with my wife." Or, "She doesn't have unsightly freckles like my wife does, her ass is firmer than my wife's, and she seems like a lot of fun. I bet she'd be interesting to grab a cup of coffee with. Yes, this woman is better than my wife in many ways, and I'd rather have an orgasm with her." He clearly wasn't putting that much thought into it. It was just scroll, get a "hit," and move on to the next.

I guess understanding the actual pattern of his use, and the sheer volume, helped me to realize that it really isn't about me. It isn't even about people (not in the way I think about people, anyway.)

Now, the ogling and the emotional affair, those are a different story...
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Thank you so much for sharing.
My husband had 2 favourite websites and they were all still photos. Videos didn't turn him on like photos did. He knew those two websites off by heart and knew where "the girls he liked" were. While I was upstairs wondering why he hadn't fucked me in months. *sigh*

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

CowardlyLion said: ↑

I don’t think @TIMMY0110 deserves all of those harsh words. He’s got a valid point and a valid opinion.

And I’m really sorry to say, but he’s not really wrong. You can claim all you want that you never ever ogle women. But we are sex addicts. It’s part of our addiction. It’s not right by any means. It’s horrible. But if you can’t be honest with yourself, you will never get better.
I’ve played the oblivious part before. I’ve said the “I just thought I belonged with that type of woman” excuse before.
If you do not admit to your behaviors, especially to yourself, you will never be able to heal. And if you continue to live a secret life, it will destroy everything you hold dear. I promise you this. I’m an addict. We can tell when another addict is full of it.

Sorry to hijack your thread @Sadgirl . Staying is hard. There are a lot of things you will feel. Look at his actions. If he honestly wants to be with you he will work. And you will see the work he is putting in. If he’s not spending every moment of his free time trying to recover or better himself, he is being selfish. You are not worth it to him. A marriage is the most wonderful thing anyone could ever have. And if you put it second to anything in your life, you don’t deserve it.

Recovery makes the immature person mature. There is no room in recovery for immaturity.
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Thank you so much for your reply!!! Yes he is doing the work, but his denial and shame are so deep rooted it is like pulling teeth. Everything just feels so tainted. Wrecked.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 25, 2018

AnonymousAnnaXOXO said: ↑

Are you trying in invalidate my husband and other men's experiences? In 3 years I've never seen him look at another woman. And he is a Porn Addict Not Sex Addict. Sex addicts have much higher and dangerous behaviors. There is a huge difference between a guy who watches vanilla porn and sticks to that versus a guy who is on hook up sites, sees escorts and has multiple affairs.... VERY FUCKING DIFFERENT. Plus my husband, as any addiction starts, maybe when he was 12 it was about the girls, but he by the time he was 14 tried quitting and hated himself since and tried to get PMO over with as quickly as possible, so it was about finding an escape and finding a clip with a position he liked, not people he liked (whether they were attractive or not was irrelevant, he was looking for favorite positions).

What fucking excuse? Maybe for YOU that's an excuse. As Most Addicts try to tell their SO, if they watch child porn it doesn't necessarily mean they want to have sex with a child. Same thing goes for a male who watches gay porn and is straight. Does that mean he wants to have sex with guys? Probably not. It simply means the addiction has taken them into places they NEVER WANTED TO BE.

For my husband,

BUT TRIGGER WARNING....

the IG was suicidegirls

END TRIGGER

Those types of girls are very specific. It's similar to my thing for Emo boys/Skater boys. I like the look, but would Never want to be with someone who looks like that, it would freak me the fuck out. My husband thought those emo/skater/punk etc. looking type women were of his status (poor, broken home, delinquint) and figured that is what he was supposed to be with. This was after a break up with a girl the complete opposite of that. She was from a home of marriage, loving parents, proper, etc. and treated my husband like crap. He figured he was crap. He figured he didn't deserve girls like that. Hence where his addiction took him.

You know how we figured all this out? We psychoanalyzed. Maybe you can try that yourself on your addictive habits wherever they took you. Figure out where they came from, started from, and what drew you there. So there is no excuse. And maybe when you say to yourself, "I just thought I belonged with that type of women" think deeper. Is there a self-esteem issue? A self-worth issue? Is there a grandiose belief?

Reflection is the key to freedom. Once a person understands their behaviors, patterns, and where they come from and have been triggered by, they can actually be aware and change and get healthy. My husband has been over 2 years PMO free. I think he is doing AMAZING. So maybe when he was within the first month free he was struggling, but he doesn't struggle with that stuff. What he struggles with is repression of feelings without any addiction to escape and aid in the repression process.
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My husband NEVER oogled either. He was actually repulsed by men who did and was very judgemental about it. He said that he always felt proud that "he wasn't that guy". When I pointed out that he was that guy-it was just saved for the internet he was shocked. Like he had disassociated so much from what he was doing and hid behind being prideful that he didn't have an eye for other women. In public. :/ So many head games with himself to justify what he was doing.

TryingToHeal · Jul 25, 2018

Sadgirl said: ↑

My husband NEVER oogled either. He was actually repulsed by men who did and was very judgemental about it. He said that he always felt proud that "he wasn't that guy". When I pointed out that he was that guy-it was just saved for the internet he was shocked. Like he had disassociated so much from what he was doing and hid behind being prideful that he didn't have an eye for other women. In public. :/ So many head games with himself to justify what he was doing.
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We had this exact same discussion and reaction.
And I feel like all this makes this that much more shocking and hurtful to me because he didn't appear, ever, to be "that guy".

EyesWideOpen · Jul 25, 2018

TryingToHeal said: ↑

We had this exact same discussion and reaction.
And I feel like all this makes this that much more shocking and hurtful to me because he didn't appear, ever, to be "that guy".
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They are all "that guy" in one way or another. The addiction manifests itself in different ways for different men.

hope4healing · Jul 26, 2018

Sadgirl said: ↑

He was actually repulsed by men who did and was very judgemental about it. He said that he always felt proud that "he wasn't that guy". When I pointed out that he was that guy-it was just saved for the internet he was shocked. Like he had disassociated so much from what he was doing and hid behind being prideful that he didn't have an eye for other women. In public. :/ So many head games with himself to justify what he was doing.
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EyesWideOpen said: ↑

They are all "that guy" in one way or another. The addiction manifests itself in different ways for different men.
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All of this...
I am forever amazed at the way the addiction controls their mind and thinking. My husband also sees himself as never being "that guy" because, in public, he acts respectful to women and doesn't participate when the other guys at work are acting like a bunch of immature, horny animals. The compartmentalizing and disassociating and rationalizing and everything else that helps to justify their own behavior over anyone else's...it is maddening.

EyesWideOpen · Jul 26, 2018

hope4healing said: ↑

it is maddening
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Yes! Maddening is exactly the word I use quite often concerning this.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 26, 2018

hope4healing said: ↑

All of this...
I am forever amazed at the way the addiction controls their mind and thinking. My husband also sees himself as never being "that guy" because, in public, he acts respectful to women and doesn't participate when the other guys at work are acting like a bunch of immature, horny animals. The compartmentalizing and disassociating and rationalizing and everything else that helps to justify their own behavior over anyone else's...it is maddening.
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The internal web of lies to justify their actions are maddening.

In addition to "not being that guy", my husband justified his P use :
-because he edged and didn't ejaculate, it was't masturbation.
-because it was photos and not video it wasn't P
-it was ok that we hadn't had sex in years because it is "normal to grow apart" in marriage.
-by not typing in the website address and always finding it with the search bar he wasn't "actively looking" for P. (Even though his search term brought up his favourite 2 P sites every time.)
-That he isn't addicted to P just M even though once he accessed those 2 sites he started using his phone when away to find P, increased his M time up to 15 times a week, and stopped having sex with me. But according to him, he isn't addicted to P. Just M.

TryingToHeal · Jul 26, 2018

Sadgirl said: ↑

-because he edged and didn't ejaculate, it was't masturbation.
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Sadgirl said: ↑

-That he isn't addicted to P just M even though once he accessed those 2 sites he started using his phone when away to find P, increased his M time up to 15 times a week, and stopped having sex with me. But according to him, he isn't addicted to P. Just M.
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Is it just me or do those two quotes above totally contradict themselves? It is amazing what the PA will use to justify all this to themselves, even when it sounds ridiculous!

EyesWideOpen · Jul 26, 2018

GhostWriter said: ↑

It's just you! No, seriously, these contradictions are ALWAYS in play and they are ridiculously easy to spot. It is amazing indeed for both the PA and their codependent SO.
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or the SO that is not co-dependent but affected by betrayal trauma/PTSD.

Hopefulgirl · Jul 26, 2018

GhostWriter said: ↑

It's just you! No, seriously, these contradictions are ALWAYS in play and they are ridiculously easy to spot. It is amazing indeed for both the PA and their codependent SO.
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Yeah no codependency issues here. And I wouldn't say it is amazing, I would say it is pathological.

Deleted Account · Jul 31, 2018

Sadgirl said: ↑

PAs..... I can't get over the fact that my husband was addicted to other women. Alcohol I could have dealt with. Drugs, sure. Gambling, you bet! But other women?
I feel like why even bother being sexually intimate with my husband because he doesn't get high off of me. I am sexually explorative but I dare not do any of the fun things I used to because he has seen countless other women live out his fantasies. Why show him my body when he has explored so many others that were perfectly edited and enticing.
Why stay? Why even bother with sex with him? Help?
Do any other SOs feel this way?
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I'm struggling with this too, and I'm concluding that this really all comes down to what every individual person defines as cheating. I believe addiction gives people an excuse to not act self-control. I don't think addiction is an excuse to do something that goes against someone's own principles/morals or feelings of what is right and wrong, I don't think it requires any self-control to not do something that is thought or felt to be morally wrong, especially when it involves hurting other people. If I am addicted to alcohol for example, I'm not hurting anyone except myself, same with gambling. So chances are your SO thinks he was simply addicted to pictures and videos of other women which he feels like is nothing like actually having sex with other women (which I agree is not the same, but to me personally, that doesn't make it less cheating and less wrong than having sex with other women)

The way I've come to understand it after some research is that the combination of the neurochemicals dopamine (craving (sexual) novelty-chemical) and oxytocin (bonding ("cuddling") chemical) makes most people in relationships apart from already having a spiritual, emotional connection also feel sexually/physically connected to each other, and especially stay sexually/physically connected to (bond with) each other. Now I'm assuming for people who don't see watching porn as cheating, they biologically bond with a person through the physical act of sex (apart from many other affectionate bonding behaviors). Consequently, having sex with a different person would be breaking that bond, would be felt as cheating on that bond (which equals the traditional definition of being monogamous). Just as there are apparently people who don't seem to bond at all to one person through physical intimacy, which are people who have sexually open relationships, they seem to have a completely different definition of cheating. Now for me personally, and probably for some other people but definitely a minority, and I don't know the reason why, the biological bonding to my partner doesn't only happen through physical intimacy, but also by looking and thinking of my partner in intimate ways. That is why for me looking and thinking of other men sexually is just as much cheating on that biological bond as having sex with other men. It seems like not everyone is biologically bonding in the same way, just as not everyone is sexually attracted to the opposite gender, as intended by nature. (I'm not wanting to reduce everything to chemical reactions in our body, but at least this might offer a scientific angle on explaining why some people feel differently about cheating than others)

I am still trying to figure out how to deal with my SO having a different definition of cheating than me, so far I can only say it makes me feel more distant from him and keeps causing conflicts. (although besides that, there is really nothing wrong in our relationship)

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