A very STRONG question to all the women on this forum

First I love discussions & questions such as this. Gets my mind working...

So I have been stuck in this P trap for over three years. I’ve given ultimatums, countless fights, read countless books, wrote letters, lots of tears, relapses, tough discussions, etc.

My husband is ultimately a good man and that is why I stay. Grace is why I stay. Being human & making mistakes, is why I stay.

If he wasn’t making any progress, wasn’t receptive at all, didn’t think he had a problem or got physical with someone else I don’t think I could stay and support him. That would all be too much for me to handle.

I can’t say he is dedicated to his recovery because he’s more of the “dry drunk” type others have spoke about. It’s been incremental & verrrry slow...but we’ve made progress.

I’ve stopped trying to work his recovery. I make it very clear when he breaks my boundaries and makes me uncomfortable.

I think as long as he is “trying” to be a good husband & father and making improvements then I’m here to support & encourage him.

Love is a choice and I’m choosing to love him through this because he’s not perfect but making progress.

 

Hi @Broken3,

And this thread is for all SO's who have posted about spouses who are in the "dry drunk" category. This is for all of us really, whether we are sober, still acting out, etc.

Do you know how your husband feels when he relapses? Does he still feel like a good man? Or is there shame?

Note: Guilt is "I did something wrong". Shame is "I am something wrong". Or, "there is something wrong with me".

I don't know if we talk a lot about shame on this forum. As an addict, I hated myself. I didn't think I did but I did. I thought because of what I was doing that I was a bad person. I thought G-d was punishing me. I thought I had no right be loved, that I was unlovable at my core.

There has been talk of pride on this thread. Pride masks insecurity and low self-esteem. It is a defense mechanism, a form of denial.

We push real hard for addicts to shape up, behave right, and "man up". But, if the shame is still there, it's not going to work. Shame is the root of all addiction.

I have been listening to a lot of Pema Chodron (again) lately. I've also read and listened to a lot of Brene Brown.

I suggest a new approach. Try to get your addict to open their heart to you. Try to encourage them to get help for shame. If they can do this, they can get help for their addiction because they won't be ashamed of it.

I am considering a religious conversion. To do this, I will have to work closely with a rabbi. One of the rabbis in our shul already knows my story, he is part of my wife's support. The other, she is the one I would want to work with. I have been thinking about what I would disclose because conversion is so much about identity and, as a recovery addict and compliant codependent, I didn't have much of an identity. I really didn't think I knew who I was until a few years ago and I'm still "getting to know myself". What I decided is, I don't mind sharing my story with her, this rabbi. I'm not ashamed. I know it will be kept in confidence and I want this person to know the real me because it is imperative that I be authentic during this process. I realized that that means I am not caring the burden of shame the way I used to. I'm not perfect (I was a real hard case at first), but I am much better.

I hope this helps.

Peace to all,
-Quinn

 

I dont expect him to be perfect, but I do expect him to be honest.
I can handle relapses, as long as hes open.
I cant really put a time stamp on this, but if it were to get to the point where we can't move forward because he cant get it together, or its ruining my life, we would have to revisit.
There is one aspect of his addiction that is a definitive final straw, and he understands that if this happens,its over. No exception.

 

@Hella,

I am going to ponder what you have said for a bit. I am going out to dinner with recovery friends in a little while so I am short on time right now. My closest friend, she was in OA for a while before we met in CoDA. She doesn't go to OA anymore. Some of the things you have said, she has said to me. She's not dating, says she doesn't want have a relationship right now, which I take her at her word, but I can't help thinking in addition to that she doesn't think she will find anyone who will truly love her.

In the meantime, pop quiz:

Name three things you love about yourself that have nothing to do with your appearance.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

From the CoDA 12 promises:

#5: I know a new love and acceptance of myself and others. I feel genuinely lovable, loving and loved.
#9: I acknowledge that I am a unique and precious creation.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

@Hella Wow! So many feels there. Yes pregnancies, breastfeeding and aging can take a toll on your body. But you have to understand that all the beauty that is in your kidos has come from you. When you are looking at yourself, to be realistic, you have to add at least half of their beauty to your own. This is true for their emotional, physical and mental beauty. The other half obviously goes to the other caretaker.

That is a touch one.
1. I love that I love my work and am kinda sorta good at it.
2. I try to be as good of a husband and father as I can.
3. I try to help people with whatever is in my power.

 

I've been pondering a lot over my body image and how I feel about my self and my body and how it relates to self love and shame. I'm going to share my journey in hopes that it helps me and others. But first, my 3:

1. I am a caring and involved father. I am devoted to my daughter. My primary purpose in life is for her to grow up in a loving home so that she may love herself and be kind to others.
2. I am kind and have compassion for others.
3. I live daringly. I am willing to extend myself beyond my comfort zone for my own spiritual growth or another's. I have "courage to change". My life is rich and full because of this and I am grateful so much so that I try to help others as much as I can.

So, here's my story:

I was born with a crossed eye. Because of this, I suspect my mother and I failed to bond when I was a newborn but I am not sure. My sister, 3 years younger, was born with the same condition. When I was 5 and my sister was 2, my parents gave her corrective surgery. They sent me off to the movies with another kid (Star Wars I think, it was 1977). When I got back from the movie, I got in trouble because I bought candy and I was told I wasn't allowed to. I still remember standing in the driveway getting yelled at. I didn't fully comprehend at the time but my brain filed this memory away for some reason. The reason is, this was the moment of the destruction of my self-esteem. I wasn't worth it. I internalized this.

I grew up this way. I was awkward looking all through high school and college. When I was 26 years old, I made an appointment with a pediatric opthalmologist and corrected this. But it was too late for me to develop stereoscopic vision so to this day, I still drop things, walk into door ways, have awkward table manners, etc. I was told, when I was 38 in group therapy, that this was the first act of love I ever gave to myself.

It goes without saying that on my first 4th step 8 years ago, this was the top item on my resentments list.

I went on, even after the surgery to live this way, low self-esteem, I am of no value. I continued to let others control my appearance. I had long hair (really long). My ex wife loved this. I wanted to cut it. She wouldn't let me so I didn't do it. That's the way I thought "I can't because she won't let me". No idea to me that it was my hair and I could do as I please. After I separated from her, I cut it. I started wearing clothes that actually fit me and I looked good in. (Thanks CoDA!!).

So, today. After about 2 years of ACoA, it finally dawned on me. "I'm not my parent's kid anymore. I don't have to live like that.". I have a much more positive image of myself. I'm not square jawed and I'm not strong or particularly tall. I don't have pecs. I still have (most of) my hair. I don't think of myself as attractive but I like the way I look because I chose it for me.

So, now I'm going to relate this to my porn use of my addiction. I once was a j random blog post titled something like "X Things I Wish Someone Had Told Me About Porn". The one that hit home was this:

"I wish someone had told me that what I would be most attracted to was where I was most wounded."

So true for me. I was never in the category of escalating use to the rougher and more degrading stuff. I abhor violence of any sort and couldn't stand watching scenes where men were mean to women. I was attracted to the porn where it "looked like" the couples were enjoying themselves and each other, that they were having fun together. This is what I thought I missed out on in high school and college, that everybody else was having fun and I wasn't (false belief). I became addicted to something that would provide that for me in a fake way and eschewed trying to have a real relationship.

I hope this helps. Peace to you all,
-Quinn

 

Thank you!

Yes that is part of the progress I mentioned. I have also struggled with the addiction myself and by opening up to him about how real my struggles can be it has also helped him become more comfortable with me. Of course it’s still not easy to tell me if he relapsed but he will tell me (usually I have to ask). I know he used to feel shame. I think he’s getting better w that aspect and feels more disappointment in himself for letting me down or being weak. He’s the quiet type so he’s not comfortable talking to anyone besides me about his issues. He met with a men’s group after the first DDay but that lasted only a few months.

He has self identified himself as intimacy anorexic which helped him make huge strides in recovery. He’s still working through reading some books on that.

Problem is he doesn’t usually just work on recovery stuff until I’m pissed and nagging. Which I hate. I don’t want to be that wife nor should I have to be. I like happiness

 

Don't we all?

 

I know the feeling and I can relate.

To all you PAs and SAs out there: your addiction does not make you weak. Let go of the tough guy, strong man, I can handle this by myself attitude. Lower your shields. Drop the rock. Addiction is a disease of the body, mind, and soul. I've never seen anybody do it alone. The solution is _community_. Let your addiction humble you. Let it be a teacher to you. Let it show you what it means to love yourself and another as an imperfect person. Let it transform you into the person you were meant to be.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

Why I am grateful (yes grateful) for my addiction and recovery and have given up the "dream" of being normal:

- I found a path to G-d and spirituality.
- my struggle has made me a better parent.
- I have learned what it means to be humble (and rarely from time to time I actually am).
- I have gained empathy for others.
- I stopped judging others (I used to do this a lot, I was raised this way).
- I started to experience joy.
- I have let go of (or greatly reduced) my worry and need to control. I live one day at a time.
- I have found meaning and purpose in life.
- I've let go of any ideas that life is about "winning".
- I am grateful for the opportunity to help others

I'm sure there's more...please feel free to add your own.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

I know that everyone's experience/journey is different .. but for you, from DDay, how many months/years until you started to experience joy?

 

Well, I had to extract myself from a bad marriage and had a contentious divorce. I was a really really hard case in the SA and Codependent department. I had a lot of family of origin baggage to clean up and I had intensive therapy for a while. I was really miserable. I spent a long time getting into the problem so it's been a long time coming out. I like to say I spent 25 years getting into the problem and now I'm 8 years through the 25 of getting out.

There's the qualifiers so...

Several years. Maybe 3 years for the beginnings of some joy but probably 5 until I really knew what it felt like. BTW, joy isn't just happiness in this context. It's a spiritual kind of happiness, the feeling of being connected to the world around us. Joy is experienced in nature, in community, in friendships, in relationship, etc.

Times I've felt joy:
- experiencing the views, the sounds, and the feel of the wind on top of the mountains in Acadia National Park last summer
- ditto for Glacier National Park the year prior
- At 3am when I would feed my baby girl a bottle in the quiet of the night, looking lovingly at her adorable little face
- my wedding day (both times really but 2nd was better)
- singing songs with my wife in the kitchen
- sharing a moment together with my wife as we play with our daughter
- most nights when my wife goes to sleep with her head on my shoulder
- when someone I care about in program who has struggled for a long time takes a sobriety chip

Note: in my entire life, I've had many of these experiences before, but I've just been going through the motions, not feeling. It's the feeling that is new, not the actual experience. I relate to them differently now.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

#jealous

But, I'm only 1 year in .. so not really jealousy -- rather, hope.

 

So I just posted this on my journal but I feel it relates to this question too...these are not my word but I most definitely feel this way....

“Love is a choice”

I’m gonna tell you something, and I never want you to forget it. Four very important words, words that I suggest you go so far as to live by. Ready? Here goes:

Love is a choice.

Thats right. It’s not a pit that you fall into. It’s not a fire that you stoke. It’s a decision you make. Don’t go thinking it’s a one-time decision either, it’s one you have to get up and make every morning. It’s a commitment, and it does take strength, but it’s worth it.

If you think you no longer “love” this person, you are probably confusing Love with passion. Passion is the pit that you fall into, the fire that gets kindled and rekindled. This mistake is painfully common. Personally, I blame romantic movies. They give people some incredibly unrealistic expectations and commonly use the word “Love” to describe passion, sexual attraction, emotions, and seemingly anything and everything but actual Love. But just to be clear, passion and Love are two very different things.

Passion is what makes you look at him in awe, it’s what attracts you to him, what gives you butterflies, it’s all the feel-good that people lust after in a relationship. Like lots of things that feel good, however, it is dangerous, addictive, fleeting, and should be enjoyed with caution. It is intense, but often fleeting, and lacks the steadiness and relentless endurance of Love.

Love is what empowers you to work for your relationship, instead of expecting it to come easily. It’s what keeps you up for hours on end holding him when he’s overwhelmed and inconsolable. It’s what allows him to help you navigate through the clusterfuck of emotions you feel transitioning to a new job or environment, even though in the moment you are not any kind of fun or exciting to be around. It’s the reason parents care for their infant children, even though practically speaking, the child is nothing but a burden to them physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially. It’s the reason this man


gets up every day to dress and take care of his wife, even though she doesn’t even remember his name. Love, not this romanticized notion of a fiery fleeting passion, but real, true, enduring Love, is security. It’s the only thing that has the power to make a relationship last.

The minute you begin to confuse the two is the minute your relationship (and in some ways your life, since all different kinds of relationships will be strong influencers in your life) hears its death sentence. If you forsake years of enduring Love for a momentary lack of passion, you will look upon it with regret for the rest of your life. Don’t want to hear it from a 19 year old? Ask someone who’s been there. See how they are doing now.

Mistaking passion for Love is the reason so many relationships fail today, the reason so many children grow up in broken families, often making the same mistakes as their parents with the very same misconceptions.

I want to encourage you to be part of the solution, not the problem. Choose to Love your husband. You’ll be glad you did.

 

Absolutely agree with one exception, it’s deep love versus infatuation rather than passion. I’m naturally a passionate person and I have no problem feeling it on the regular, it may come and go with the tied but the current is always working with me. Infatuation however is commonly confused with love, that’s what fades with quickness and has hard time sticking around, it’s fleeting and shallow.

 

Even though the thread went into a different direction, this is very well said and helpful. Thank you.

 

Yes I would say that’s love vs lust. Love is build on a deep connection where the lust/infatuation is the feelings those confuse with love, based on shallow surface.

I think the passion in love, as you said comes and goes in waves throughout a relationship. Passion from lust is what fades and dies because it’s foundation is shallow.

 

Yes. Nobody is perfect. I made a commitment, in sickness and in health, and this is his sickness. There are far worse fates.

Provided, of course, that he never stops trying and caring and knowing it's wrong. I would not continue to be with someone who simply doesn't care or even want to change. There would be a limit of time I would give that person before saying, "sorry, you made your choice."