My friend relapsed - I did not go easy on him

Wow. Just... wow.

I mean, I'm going to ignore jmark's comments because ever since I threw him on the ignore list, I've found that saying, "Well, maybe this time?" and revealing a comment has always left me with, "Nope, still a judgemental, prideful ass."

Clumsy, I could probably garner irritation and annoyance from some of your comments, but I won't. What I will tell you is that you're statements are showing you to be really damned immature. And, hey, I can actually understand why you feel how you do - I've been there, I've had those moods and perspectives. But they're bullshit perspectives, and here's why.

Guilt and shame should NEVER be associated with improvement or positive momentum. That's like saying that if a runner stumbles on his way to the finish line, it'll help to tie a ball-and-chain around his leg. That's what shame and guilt are: condemnation. "What the fuck is wrong with you?" That is in essence what you said. Those are words that hold no love and no compassion, and as such should never be used among people that we love. About the only time I can think of where that might be useful is in a strictly masculine relationship with a friend that has yet to realize that his actions are destructive, esp. when it comes to other people. The shock can make someone wake up, as a different shock made me wake up to my actions; guilt and shame do not have the same potential.

The hard-nosed stance on PMO is also faulty. We already get that it's destructive and wrong, jackass. We're not fighting pornography because it seems like a fun thing to do. I myself severed myself from it because I realized that women weren't objects to lust over, and I also wanted to be able to give the best I had to my soon-to-be-wife (which I wasn't able to). We all have our reasons for quitting, but none of them are frivolous. This is not a journey to be taken upon lightly.

Let me try and lay out a principle that some of you hard-heads have a difficult time differentiating between: condemnation versus conviction. Let's go to Webster for this one:

Condemnation : The act of condemning; the judicial act of declaring one guilty, and dooming him to punishment. Notice: Judicial, aka, as a judge.

Conviction : The act of convincing of error, or of compelling the admission of a truth.

It doesn't take rocket science to see the difference. Conviction stops once the offender knows the truth about his or her actions and acknowledges it; condemnation goes all the way to sentencing and punishment.

Shame dishonors, degrades, and mocks the individual, putting an additional burden on them. Even in the guise of justified intention, the effect is no less destructive. When you screwed up or failed and your father demeaned and belittled you - even with the underlying intention of correcting you and raising you up to be a good son - that action only served to deal a blow to your worth, confidence, and heart (and it hurt more because you actually cared about what he said and thought). This is the start opposite of encouragement.

So knock it the hell off.

And for those of you that want to try and come at this from a Biblical perspective - you know who you are - then let me remind you of a few important little tidbits. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it. Notice how that statement came right after "God so loved the world"? Love and condemnation are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

I've also noticed that this attitude of judgement tends to come from some of you who have put great personal effort into overcoming PMO and have been away from it for some time - years in some cases. The only way you can pass judgement on someone else or condemn their actions is if you see yourself in a higher or more superior position. That's called haughtiness, jackass. Another term for it is pride. And I don't need to remind some of you Bible-thumpers what Proverbs 16:18 says - right?

The only thing that's going to pull men out of their PMO addiction is encouragement, support, community, and determination. Your chastisement can't give someone determination - that's something that we men have to find for ourselves, and the source of that determination is different for all of us. The only thing bashing someone with a cudgel is going to do is cause them to fail harder the next time. In fact, that weight is also what depression feeds off of.

I need to reiterate here, Clumsy, as a man who has dealt with military-grade PTSD and depression: This shit you're advocating only serves to damage the identity and self-worth of a man who is already dealing with an addiction that disembowels his identity in the first place. At best, it'll just bring him lower; at worst, he could end up dead from it.

Public Service Announcement: We're all equals in this struggle. There are no generals, no chieftains, no overlords, no masters. When you approach a fellow Fapstronaut, remember that you're not his superior or his boss or his fucking parent - you're his friend and comrade. If you find yourself looking down at him from a pedestal you've stepped up on, then you need to turn the fuck around and go deal with your own heart. Leaders lead from the front, not from the top.

And for the rest of you struggling on every day: Don't tap!

 

And also, Clumsy, I would like to point out that my girlfriend could probably whip your "masculine" ass into the ground - and if she didn't, I might. Your place as a man is to support and uplift women, not say, "As a man, we're better". We're different, but they were made to support us - meaning that we need the support. Learn to respect that.

 

Friends, I feel a conflict here.

We need to remember that there are seven traditionally recognized vices and virtues:

Lust vs. Chastity
Gluttony vs. Temperance
Greed vs. Charity
Sloth vs. Diligence
Wrath vs. Patience
Envy vs. Kindness
Pride vs. Humility

We need to work not just on Chastity

 

I feel like you just reinforced everything I said but in a neat little package. Thumbs up!

 

Is there a like button for weiland. Dam straight to the point man. Very well done I like how that argument went.

But women are supposed to be our equals not sure if Clumsy thought of this as inferior or weak. I mean girls have problems with pmo just as much as guys do so I think it shows a little that we all have the same emotions. Certainly in a relationship girls are a bit more emotional and guys more masculine but its not super skewed its just in certain areas that maybe is harder for one to cope with but it gets fairly even.

Clumsy who is you friend exactly I hope you haven't broken him yet. I mean you basically have hit him down even farther after he probably already felt really bad.

 

Sorry to interrupt this conversation and also sorry if I missed some points; perhaps has it already been lifted but I'd like to add that going hard on somebody is not necessarily shouting at him and screaming at him how a motherfucker he his. A cold glance can be worth a thousand insults.

Me for example, I have a huge problem with authority. I just can't stand it I become a dragon in ten seconds. But there's one thing I absolutely cannot resist; when someone I really care about looks deceived. It crush my heart. I think that showing to someone you care and who has done against his OWN principles (and NOT yours, that's your buisness, and your buisness, it's NONE of your matters to try to engrave in him your own beliefs, it's a matter of respect, he has to be willing and interested), that it hurt you personally, because precisely you love him and it saddens you to see someone you love suffer.

Oh nevermind what I just said; what Weiland said about guilt and shame is 200% more clever. Man, I applaud you from both hands and feet. This was just brilliant.

It reminds me from one of my favourite NoFap taglines I say to myself to go one: Forgive don't forget. When I see people talking about how this is a war it makes me cringe and grit teeth because I think that this is the exact opposite of a war. It's a story of reconciliation. First towards yourself; you forgive yourself, you accept the fact that you have been less good than what you are becoming; then towards God if you're a believer, towards society, towards women, towards porn actors and actresses, towards anyone you may have hurt during your addiction period, ESPECIALLY you. And believe me or not but this kind of thinking brought me here when trying to quit for religious reasons brought me to suicide attempts.


And about your views on women, Clumsy, well you really suit your name. I was just starting to ask myself if I should get a bit more involved into what is feminism and the place of women (giving up PMO ignited it and Bianca and Sierra's recent implication into Future Feminism reinforced it), and you definitely proved me how a great idea it would be so thank you. I'm afraid I'm 1) too sensitive and 2) not well-educated, mature and intelligent enough to answer you. I'm sorry, I would have loved to discuss.

Why not? Why? Don't make generalities. I don't really believe in total equality; I believe in justice and individuality. The point is, in my own opinion you should talk to anyone regarding there own personalities and not their gender or sex, except if they specify so. To talk differently to a woman BECAUSE she is a woman is I think a root of Evil.

Oh and last thing. Have you tried mindful meditation? It could help you calm down. You seem a bit too aggressive for my humble tastes these days. Your streak doesn't make you better than anyone. There's always someone higher than you. There are some people that never watched porn nor masturbated. There is as much to learn from someone that quit today than from someone that's struggling since ten years. Humility makes kings, pride makes dictators.

Apologies if what I say lacks sense or maturity. I have so much more to learn.

 

Oh my Goooooooooooood. It's not that what you say isn't nice. It's just annoying on so many levels, I don't know where to start and I'm going to embarrass myself trying to answer you. Or maybe is it the WAY you're talking about it? I'm not saying that what you say is wrong. I'm smart enough to know there's a difference between World Records and Olympic results between men and women. I know they are different, proof for me is that I wanted to be a boy for a really, really long time, still kinda want it sometimes. But when I hear what you say, I feel like you're using truths for wrong arguments. If a woman wants to defend her country, then she has the right to. Nothing should be possibly get in your way of thinking otherwise. Yes, maybe that's what bothers me with the way you're talking: I feel like this way of speech leads to inequality. It's easy to think "oh, women are weaker, so they shouldn't go to war", etc.

Maybe will you answer me that they have qualities that men haven't and that is what they should exploit. Maybe will you answer me that what you are saying is an actual ode to femininity. But I can't help but gritting my teeth when I read you. Perhaps is it just the supremacy of your tone. I am not saying that I know more than you, far from that. But I believe that humility and dialogue should be stitched together like pants and sleeves. Otherwise the discussion is closed in a matter of second, if someone imposes his point of view as universal.

I will just have one question. Why do you keep speaking as if what you're saying is absolute general truth?

Glad to see that you acknowledged the fact that you might have been too harsh though.

 

Where I get this from? That's my point. I'm not at all talking about female in general. I'm talking about myself. It happens that I'm physically a girl, but in my mind I'm about 75% girl 75% boy. I absolutely am not angered about you not knowing this. But there are other stuff than men and women. There are people that prefers to have no gender and it feels for me that you completely leave them aside. About Yin and Yang, ha I'm sorry my religion prevents me from agreeing with Yin and Yang, I agree that there is balance, but right now I'm way too "in love" with a girl to believe that only girls and boys can be balanced.

Holy shit no! SO MUCH NO!!! AT ALL!!! MEN DO ARE DIFFERENT FROM WOMEN!!!! THANK GOD you don't refuse to talk to me because I'm a woman, because otherwise there would be a huge concern. The reason why you could not would have want to answer me would be because our opinions are different and talking with me (my bare personality, all gender issues set aside) does not interest you.

Thanks for clearing this out, because IT REALLY FEELS LIKE IT. Would I have been the only one to think as such, I would have apologize, but it's not the case. ALSO here the absolute problem in my opinion: talking about generalities. Because you set aside so much important stuff. Also, maybe you're a bit too focused on only men and women genders. I said it before I think. But for me, it's more like "I don't have anything against men dressing up like whatever they want - if they feel good about it." The fact that you specifically mention "like women" shows for me, and I may be wrong but it's what I feel from your Internet pose, that you actually have an issue with women being weaker.


GGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH once again I don't even know how to say it: you have LAUDABLE views and use them for THE WRONGEST CAUSE. You DO piss me off, because I don't believe that you're a bad man or a misogynist, it's just that, aaghh, I don't know, you're right on the principles but wrong on practice.

It feels in your words that minorities being minorities are not worth to be included into majority. This reinforces what I've said previously.

Again that's exactly what I'm talking about. How does all your female friends and girlfriends represent the entire population of women? When I say women, I include everyone, transsexuals with sex change, transsexuals without sex change, everyone.

You will not change, I will not change. Ok. So now what? Do we respect each others, or try to forcefully make others believe in our own views? As a Catholic, I chose respect.

Oh, and I'm sincerely sorry to have hurt you, in no way was it my goal, I apologize. I think this is an extremely important discussion.

 

Ok, I give up. Too much stuff to answer.

Again, this is general and simplistic. Girls do the same. I think that the trick here is that being a man, you don't know what it feels like to be a woman interacting with another woman, precisely because of our differences. I will not go into further details. I already made my point to prove to you that I believe that men and women are different and how important I think it is. You don't have to say it to me, but I appreciate the concern. I kinda learned about it when a man told me to shot myself in the head because I didn't wanted to show my boobs on xhamster.

I strongly agree. Masculinity and femininity DOES exist. But to say that femininity is weaker, whatever how laudable your intentions are, is misogyny, purely and simply.

Stop to talk generally. I believe in rights for everyone. I believe that it is NOT for the man to decide what his wife want. This sounds misogynistic because the way you say it feels like it is MAN'S DECISION regarding women acts. I don't believe in this.

I'll be able to answer you when I'll be more educated about it.

I'm sad that the "gentleman" is disappearing gradually in our world. Masturbation and porn has made both sexes so insecure, men wants to be more feminine and women more masculine. This is not natural of course, but a side-effect by a highly sexualized society. If we stick to our nature, I believe we will find peace and live comfortably with each other, without any need of feminism.

It's hard for me to read that when the absolute core of my practice as an art student is a reflexion on gender and paintings of girls with facial hair. Once again, it feels like you're trying to impose your point of view.

Uh. You masturbate because you can't have sex do you? So you seek company of women too, no more than us. Personally, again, I'm WAY too into girls to be able to think properly about this.

Maybe. But if these kind of literature speaks in the same way that you do, no thanks, I'll continue reading my Girls Against God feminist magazine. The truth for me is the Catholic God I believe in. Period.

 

Just say no

 

NO. This is easy. We're avoiding the main issues if we don't talk about everything.

THERE. Finally! Here you're talking personally. Of course you can. Why would I judge you for wanting to become an elephant? Seek your own happiness buddy.

Sorry but I don't get how it can feels like I think I'm more worth than you, when the only thing I've said is that women are not fit for war and physically weaker.

Perhaps because I'm taking it personally when you're so general. If it's the case we're both wrong. Mmmh, after thinking, I don't think that I think that you think (sorry haha) that you're more worthy than me, it's just that you're speaking as if you represented all men and I think that it is very dangerous.

Don't try to act like you know what I think. Perhaps am I. I don't know, I'm not comfortable enough in this language nor this matter to talk as well as I'd like to show.

 

Not sure what this means, but perhaps he is saying that being a woman, you are naturally weaker than a man. Which is the truth, no?

 

We both have perfectly understood each other. You're talking about generalities but you still give extremely personal opinions. I reproach you not to include minorities. I think that the discussion is closed. We are running after each other like Tom and Jerry.

Someone continue the conversation, I give up, this is going nowhere. I will never change and he will not too.

Lmfao.

You broke my heart. Since I quit I know who I am. Hearing such things feels like my self-harm scars opening by themselves.

We've got nothing left to say to each other.


Good bye Clumsy, thank you for this entertaining discussion. You may say I'm a coward for quitting. You may say I'm doing like the woman I am and left myself overflow with my emotions. Whatever.


But I'm protecting myself from people like you. Have the best day. I wish you never to relapse and live the best of lives!