What wrong with communism?

It's only the worst depending on what variables you're looking at. Once again, let's all take a look at the very source @Themadfapper provided. Since he likes to make my points for me, I think I'll start there:

Since we've been talking about the Canadian system vs. the American system, it's worth noting that in @Themadfapper's source, the Canadian system:

• administers care that is less effective
• care that is less safe
• less coordinated
• less patient-centered
• and far less timely than what is offered in the United States.

Hard to call the US system "the worst on planet earth" when Canada has to contend with those realities. In fact, those variables are the some of the very reasons given in virtually every survey about why Canadians come to America for health care.

And let's be clear--at no point have I said that other nations should adopt the American system. Other nations, America included, should adopt a market based system. To the extent that they do that, they would see health outcomes dramatically improve.

Health insurance should be like car insurance--something you only use for major, catastrophic events like cancer treatment. If we used auto insurance in our country the same way we use health insurance, we'd be submitting claims for $400 oil changes. Get rid of the dependence on third-party payments, get power out of the hands of the insurance companies, and you'd see health care costs plummet and quality skyrocket.

 

I don't know where you got those "facts" from,@SuperFan ? I don't think it was the source I posted here

http://www.ajmc.com/contributor/jul...ity-of-us-healthcare-compared-with-the-world/

https://mha.gwu.edu/blog/us-health-care-vs-the-world-2016/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Considering the USA ranks last in health care amongst the industrialized world, but spends the most that makes them the worst healthcare system in the world. But that doesn't have to be stated again no matter how many times you claim otherwise.


The USA has fewer physicians per capita than the other industrialized nations also fewer hospital beds. So how can they have less wait times? Wierd?

Maybe this has something to do with it?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/health/veterans-dying-health-care-delays/index.html


I guess they have to make room somewhere? Seems like these guys have huge wait times. I wonder why foreigners who come to America get to skip right to the head of the line.


Oh well. It's a shit system, but it's also the most costly and if you end up having to use it you can lose your home, car, and everything you ever worked for, then kicked out to the curb while your still sick to die on the street, MERICA, yeah



Now, who made who's point? Does Canadians allegedly, and certainly foreigners going to the USA to skip wait times while Americans die untreated speak highly of the American healthcare system? Or maybe the 750,000 Americans going abroad each year for healthcare speaks highly of the American healthcare system?

It's ranked last for a reason


P.S

Who are you talking to,@SuperFan? Your post is addressing me, but then you are talking about me like you are talking to someone else/

 

I'm just going to leave this right here, so the rest of the critical thinkers of NoFap can laugh at you.

Here's a tip: when you're linking to a written article, it's usually a good idea to review the studies they're referring to in it. Otherwise, it just looks like you went to Google, found a link to a fairly reputable-looking organization that aligned with your view, and posted it without doing any real thinking. Let's be honest, that's exactly what happened here.

The chart undercuts a bunch of the arguments you've made--but primarily, it undercuts the idea that the Canadian system is better, and it heavily undercuts the idea that quality of care is directly proportional to the level of public health.

But by all means, keep posting sources that back up my side of this issue. I appreciate you doing all my heavy lifting for me.

 

This chart

This is what you get from your "critical thinking".

The fact is you don't have a leg to stand on and you are just making crap up and have been trumpeting that your nation selling its healthcare to the highest bidding foreigner while leaving its own citizens to die is an indication of a good system.. You have been making mendacious claims that my sources support your argument which is pure fantasy on your part. You are completely full of crap and I guess are so childish you pretend you are winning an argument hoping anyone dumb enough to read our back n forth only skims over your post and sees your spurious claims.

Literally, your whole post is you pretending to be an intellectual and a bunch of fantasy where you make a bunch of absurd claims none of them based on reality. While this is common in parts of your posts it makes up the entirety of this one.


You want another source that America ranks last in healthcare.

https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&...3i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.Zf512C0VvDU

There are hundreds to choose from.


If you can't have any kind of honesty and are just going to be so childish there is no point in talking to you anymore. Good day, sir.

 

Every -ism has its problems and its benefits. The problems with communism are normally pointed out by the well to do powerful, and the problems with capitalism are normally lived out by the poorer masses, like in Flint, and pointed out by the intellectuals.
We can be proud that capitalism has brought great progress in medicine and many other fields. We bridle at suggestions that it is harming people in a zero sum game, where the rich took from the poor. For brief moments, we show our charity for victims of disaster, but we design the system to benefit a very select minority.
Here in Texas, the government has a "rainy day fund" that is estimated to reach $10,300,000,000, by the end of this year. It is cash on hand for emergencies, but it will not be touched to help the victims of Harvey. Maybe if it had rained more, . . .

 

You claimed the USA was ranked "last in health care amongst the industrialized world".

Here's the link you provided:
http://www.ajmc.com/contributor/jul...ity-of-us-healthcare-compared-with-the-world/

Please find the chart they referenced to make that claim, and share it with all of us. Then get ready to have your ass handed to you.

You won't do it, because as soon as you look at the chart, you'll realize that every claim I've made about your sources has been correct.

 

Yeah, if I were in your shoes I'd be pretend to take the high road out, too. Much less humiliating than actually having to backtrack a bunch of bullshit claims.

 

@Themadfapper, just in case you have a hard time finding the chart I'm talking about ...

... it's the one referenced in virtually every single link on Page 1 of your Google search.

Of course, since it's hundreds of different organizations talking about the same original source, you like to pretend it's hundreds of different sources. This is what I'm talking about when I mention critical thinking.

 

https://mha.gwu.edu/blog/us-health-care-vs-the-world-2016/

The chart from the first source is the one I posted the other chart is this one ^

Why don't you post the mysterious chart that proves everything you said and "hand me my ass" You are a shyster charlatan and a lier.

That is the first chart you mentioned. I haven't checked the hundred other links from a google search that rank the USA last in healthcare.

I'm done. It's like you are insisting it's the year 1989 and insist all evidence shows it's 1989. All proof that it's 2017 you claim is proof of it being 1989. You are a waste of time.

 

You don't have to check the other hundred. You can just check any of them from the very first page.

You're deflecting and dodging because you don't want to admit how much you screwed your own argument.

I thought you'd never ask.

The 2014 study that your sources (including all the ones from your Google search) reference for the claim that America is "ranked last among developed nations" is from a study done by The Commonwealth Fund. You already know this, of course, but you're choosing to pretend that wasn't the study you were talking about. Here's the previously mentioned chart:



And sure enough, America is ranked last "overall". Yet, the chart is clear--America absolutely trumps Canada (see what I did there?) in every metric for quality of care, which is exactly what I've been saying this entire debate. It also crushes Canada in the timeliness of care, which is the other thing I've been saying.

Ironically, the UK--which is at or near the very top of virtually every metric that was measured--ranks second-to-last when it comes to "Healthy Lives." You would like us to believe that the quality and accessibility of health care is directly proportional to public health (which is why you keep invoking life expectancy, infant mortality, etc). The UK's results directly challenge that notion. Clearly there are enormous variables impacting public health that have nothing to do with the health care system ... but you are too blinded by your own ideology to see that.

Just to drive a stake into the heart of this argument, here's your previous post where you first made the claim about America being "ranked last":

Of course, you'll say, "I was referring to the chart by MHA@GW." Well, that's very odd, because Julie Potyraj, who wrote the article you posted, pulled the "ranked last" claim directly from the Commonwealth study. The infographic that you claim to be talking about--it doesn't show America ranking dead last at all. In fact, out of 17 nations, it shows America ranking:

• 2nd in per capita gross income
  
• 1st in health expenditures (a fact that I've consistently conceded)
• 8th in life expectancy
• 12th in availability and use (based off immunization coverage for 1-year olds, which is a stupid way to measure availability overall, but I'll give you a mulligan)
• 8th in our drinking water (even though 99% of our nation has clean water)
• 6th in density of the health workforce

Note: only two of those factors--health expenditures and availability of use--have anything to do directly with the health care system. And those three numbers at the end--these ones?



They don't show America "ranking dead last" at all. They show America being "lower than average" for those three metrics ... hardly the worst in the world.

So basically, we have two problems here: 1) you insist that the ONE chart showing America "dead last" isn't the one you were talking about, when it clearly was ... and 2) the chart you insist you were talking about doesn't show America dead last at all.

And why are you doing this? Because you're an intellectually arrogant bully who can't stomach the fact that someone who opposes socialism and believes in free markets just handed you your ass in a debate, so like all intellectual bullies, you've dodged and shifted your position in order to save face.

 

Damn you are full of shit. First off you didn't check 1000+ links that came up under " USA last in Healthcare" All the sources are not from the commonwealth fund study. There are myriad studies but they almost all have the USA dead last.

The Study I first linked to isn't the one you posted on here, and the one you found still ranks the USA last you twit it just has Canada in second to last. All the nations in first have socialized healthcare. And that is the best you can find.

I'm tired of refuting your bullshit and lies.

 

You're right, I didn't. I only checked every single source on the first page of YOUR Google search, and every single one referenced the Commonwealth Study.

I'm not talking about the study you first linked to. I'm talking about the one where you got the claim that America was ranked last in developed nations. You got that claim directly from Julie Potyraj's piece from the AJMC, which you linked to not once, but twice. And she took the claim from the Commonwealth study. You were just too damn eager to post something that looked like it supported your view that you didn't actually look underneath the hood. Hell, you probably didn't even look at the Commonwealth chart--you just copied and pasted the article, because hey, if Julie Potyraj says so, then it must be true!

 

@Themadfapper, since you agree with the Commonwealth study's conclusion that America is dead last, I'm assuming that you also agree with its conclusion that America soundly beats Canada in every metric related to the quality of health care delivery and wait times. Is that accurate? Or do you just pick and choose the parts of the chart that make you feel good about yourself?

 

I hate that I'm replying to you, but I got the "claim" that America is ranked last amongst industrialized nations in healthcare from it being widely known like the 1000 links I gave with the google search link.

The study I first linked to is the Julie Potyraj one. She mentions Commonwealth study but you didn't read on the chart/graph is from a different study.

The last one is the one the graphs/charts are from. Not that it matters I just linked one of the thousands of articles about the USA being last in healthcare as it is well known.

 

Julie Potyraj didn't conduct a study. She wrote an article that referenced other studies.

Please write that again, and this time, try to use grammar that approaches something coherent.

The last one doesn't show that America is ranked last. The graphs and/or charts say nothing to that effect. They essentially say that America is somewhere in the middle.

Oh, we're well aware that you "just linked one." My point is that you should probably start looking at the links you post. You'd make less of an ass of yourself. You posted a Google search where literally every link on the first page was focused on The Commonwealth study, which supports virtually everything I've said in this debate.

So let's recap the undeniable facts:

• America beats Canada on virtually every metric when it comes to the quality of care: better in effectiveness, safety, patient-centrism, care coordination, and wait times. This is evidenced by numerous polls and studies examining the reasons why 40,000+ Canadians leave Canada each year for care.
  
• By a huge margin, Americans spend way too much on health care. I've never challenged that.
• Canada covers its citizens free of charge, and for this benefit, Canadians accept lower-quality care and much longer wait times.
  
• @Themadfapper is too proud and too intellectually arrogant to admit when he's debating out of his league.

So my question still stands:

@Themadfapper, do you agree with the conclusions of the study done by the Commonwealth Fund, or not?

 

Oooooh, hey, I've got an idea:

@Themadfapper, you keep claiming that there are "thousands" of studies besides the Commonwealth Fund study that show that America has the worst health care in the nation.

Find one, and link it here. I don't need 50, or ten. Just one. But here's the kicker: it actually has to rank the health care system overall. You don't get off the hook by finding a study that says America is the worst in any single particular metric.

This should be fun.

While we're on the topic of the Commonwealth Fund study ... this is what I'm talking about when I mention critical thinking. Sometimes it requires more than linking incessantly to your own confirmation bias to really understand an issue. Sometimes it requires thinking.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallyp...-health-care-not-by-a-long-shot/#53b0c7bb2b38

"A far more meaningful comparison of international health systems would take stock of how people afflicted with diseases such as cancer fare in different countries. And on this measure, there's no question the United States stands above the rest.

Five-year survival rates for breast cancer are higher in the United States than England, Denmark, Germany, and Spain, according to the American Cancer Society.

In the United States, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 99.1 percent. In Denmark it's 47.7 percent.

For kidney cancer patients, the survival rate here is 68.4 percent. It's just 45.6 percent in England -- which the Commonwealth Fund ranked as the number-one healthcare system in the world.

Finally, the Commonwealth Fund study also ignores massive problems with actual access to care in the countries it heralds. Every citizen of a country with socialized medicine may have insurance. But that doesn't mean they can get the care they need.

Treatment delays were so chronic in the United Kingdom, for example, that the government had to issue a formal requirement that patients shouldn't have to wait more than four months for treatments authorized by their general practitioner."
​

So tell me, @Themadfapper, in what nation do cancer patients have the best chance of survival? If you want, you can just Google it ... there are 'literally thousands' of links, because everyone knows the United States is the best place for cancer patients to get treatment.

​

 

Damn you. First off the Commonwealth study is the one you brought up which you are making all your fictitious points about despite it ranking the USA dead last. I posted a graph from the WHO study.

They rank the USA #37

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

I'm sure capitalist Forbes magazine is real impartial

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cancer-rates-and-unjustified-conclusions/


So universal insurance is as bad as no insurance, right? Not so fast. For one thing, survival rates in Canada, Japan, Australia and Cuba were all comparable to or higher than U.S. survival rates on all types of cancer that the Lancet study examined, except for prostate cancer. Those countries all have some form of government-provided health care coverage. Prostate cancer often doesn’t require treatment, so the aggressive screening common in the U.S. turns up both early cases and cases that would never need intervention. This leads to an inflated survival rate in the U.S., where asymptomatic patients are more likely to be diagnosed.

Your link from Forbes is bullshit just like everything else you say. It's capitalist bullshit trying to sell shit to the poor and middle class with lies while the rich live it up.

I'm going to try and make this the last time I respond to you on this issue. I didn't need to post a new study just the one from the original post of mine from World Health Organization. If you want more Google them there are a ton.

 

Sounds like something an incel would say. You forget the benefits of being able to have sex with no judgement and get your release whichever way you'd like

 

Communism , Capitalism, a curse on both houses.

 

How is that at all a good thing? Or are you being sarcastic?