This is insane

What you've written is a powerful account of the hurt and harm caused to loved ones by our selfish porn use and how we transfer insecurities and self-hatred to our partner by making them feel unworthy of love and unable to trust.

Thank you for sharing this and I hope you find peace in your life.

 

I'm not in a relationship, but I can say that I never hid my porn addiction out of concern for others' feelings, but out of a prideful concern to protect my ego and self-interests. I only cared about how being exposed would make me feel.

 

They absolutely cannot see it or feel it until they are sober and in recovery. The reason? They are high as f! They have brain damage that needs to heal in order to see reality. Many think 90 days. I saw real change at around year 2. There were a lot of changes the first year, but nothing like year 2, and even more now at 3.5 years.

 

Omg! Thank you for admitting this. Say it louder for the married men hiding this to “ protect” their partner…

 

Hiding it out of ego and self-interest does correlate with others' reaction to your habit. Because the partner's reaction obviously plays a role in this, it can bruise your ego and even threaten your self-interest. we are only talking about different sides of the same coin.

 

Agreed. I hide my use not out of a concern about how it impacted others, but how it impacted their perception of me. Of course when exposed, I would use the excuse that I hid it from them because I cared about how it impacted them, but that was just another lie I told myself to make me feel good and protect the good caring guy facade I created.

 

Hmm….why am I here? Let’s see now. It takes two to argue. I make a statement and then one of you mindless addicts step up to the plate and just spew stupidity all over the place and then expect us to swallow it hook line and sinker. Not this woman! I don’t play that.

I don’t claim to be incapable of understanding. The problem is that I do understand. The problem is that you don’t. You want to come in here and act all high and mighty and knowledgeable and you’re not. You’re just another addict whose addiction depends on you not understanding it. Yeah we learned that too.

I don’t believe for a minute that people who come here to seek help are unworthy of my attention. But you know who are? Those of you that continue to spew this nonsense and try to shove it down our throat or up our ass as if it is the gospel patronizing minimizing trivializing controlling it and giving out advice that is not only unhelpful but oftentimes downright dangerous to their personal recovery. Yes instead of continuing to argue with their ignorant asses I choose to walk away from the conversation. How does that go now? “I don’t quit arguing with you because you’ve won the argument. I quit arguing with you because you’re not worth arguing over it anymore”. You can’t fix stupid.

I’m not stuck and I find it insulting to insinuate that I like the pain. No I don’t like the pain. I endure the pain so that so many other unsuspecting women don’t have to because of the ignorant bullshit that they continue to receive that spews out of your mouths disguised as advice.

Got anything else clever to say? Carry on. You’re not worth talking to anymore. There! Satisfied?

 

I’m going to use a term that I hate but there is a lot to unpack in what you have written @Meshuga so forgive me if I miss all of the points you made. I don’t have my computer and I find that I can’t type as well without it but I’ll give it a go!

If it is worth anything to you at all, I did not think you were trying to downplay what an SO goes through at all. I thought you were trying to explain this idea that a PA just doesn’t care about his SO from a PA’s perspective. I am not sure that some people will ever be ready to hear that or understand it, as is evidenced by the many responses that you received.

What you’ve written here is very powerful and mirrors what my husband has said to me before. That he wishes he could cut it out of his brain and he would if he could, that he feels like a monster, and that he would do anything and everything he could to take away any pain that he has caused me. Your fear of what will happen if you make a mistake is something I think all PA’s in recovery feel. None of you deserve or even want sympathy, but you have my empathy, which is a much different way of looking at this. In my opinion, learning to be empathetic instead of sympathetic has been very helpful in my recovery process.

You said:
“I know, I’m sorry, it sounds like I’m making this about me and addicts again, but this is how I feel and this is why I get so angry when I and other addicts are dismissed so easily. Oh, we don’t care. We persist in addiction because we see everyone else’s pain, but we only care about ourselves.

It’s not true.
It’s not.”

I don’t know if this will matter to you at all but I totally understand you and I believe you. I think the thing to remember here is that you are dealing with people who cannot understand this idea right now and they might not ever. I don’t think you should try to get them to understand it either. It’s not your job.You can empathize but don’t sympathize. A quick explanation between the two, Although I’m sure you know “In general, 'sympathy' is when you share the feelings of another; 'empathy' is when you understand the feelings of another but do not necessarily share them.” That’s just from Webster’s dictionary.

I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts in this thread and attempting to explain what a PA goes through. I was on this forum for awhile, then left and just came back to write in my journal. I don’t generally chime in anywhere else now because I found that my approach to porn addiction, my feelings, my husbands feelings and our journey together was not what most SO’s on here either experience or want to read. I have some theories about that and I discuss them in my journal which is something that you can go read if you like. It’s called Moments in Time.

This is great advice here. To not direct your hate at the PA. I would say that for a period of time an addict must hold some space for his SO to “hate” them. I think it’s part of the process, even if it sounds mean. Maybe hate isn’t the right word. I put it in quotes to illustrate that it’s important for a PA to listen and really hear what their SO was going through. And also for a PA to understand that sometimes we might need to bring up what has happened to them and even if it is hard for them to hear, it’s important that they hear us. The flip side of that is that I think it’s important for the recovery of the SO to make sure that they are doing healthy things…….

I have to run my son to work! Will finish these thoughts in a bit.

 

@Meshuga now I can finish my thoughts!

What I started to discuss was the recovery for the SO that I think needs to include healthy thoughts and I don’t believe vilifying my husband would be healthy for me and certainly not for our relationship. I’m sorry to hear that your coaching sessions go the way you describe them.That sounds unhealthy for you both. While I understand very well the frustration, anger and hurt that is written about from SO’s on these pages,I think part of recovery is going through those feelings they describe but not sitting in them forever. For myself at first those feelings were constant after our final D-Day. There were so many emotions but most of them were just coming from a place of being hurt. Now being a few years out from understanding that porn addiction is a real thing, I have some insights that I didn’t have before. I understand my husband’s story, how he came to be addicted, how he tried so many times to stop and how he hated himself for not being able to. He WANTED to stop. I believe that. I also believe that he couldn’t until he understood that it was an addiction and the person who was hurt the most by it was himself.

If I want my husband to try to hear and understand me, shouldn’t I try to do the same for him? It’s the sympathy vs empathy idea again. It’s been working well for us. I also want to say that you @Meshuga have done a great job of explaining your point of view. It rang very true to me and my husband. Maybe we will talk again sometime but if not I wish you good luck and as much happiness as you can find.

 

@Browns4life
It’s difficult to respond on my phone. Lol. But I want to be outside so it will have to do for now.

It’s funny ( not funny HaHa ) to be back here together. I remember now why I discussed with you that I wanted to stay away. But my journal is helping me sort thoughts out and @hope4healing and @Psalm27:1my light give me great insights so I think I will keep writing there. And I know you are also taking a look back to see how far you’ve come and I think that’s great too. I know this is a dangerous thread to say this in but I’m proud of you for the progress you have made so far. ❤️

I know what you were trying to convey with your post, love. But I think it’s pointless to try, even though the dopamine thing is my hypothesis! I even talked about it in my journal the other day. I never mind you sharing my ideas but sorry you got raked over the coals for them!

I had to laugh at the characterization of me that was written by someone responding to you. I sound like quite the victim and you sound like a real jackass! Interesting…I choose not to see myself that way and anyone who knows you knows you are nothing like the way you’ve been described here. I suppose it’s good that we don’t get our self worth from what strangers think of us but it’s intriguing that someone who doesn’t know anything about us seems to think they know how and what we think. Also, fascinating that they have could have any insights on whether or not I am an addict of anything. As I once told you, everyone is addicted to something.

Part of me would like to say exactly what I think to those who chose to respond to you in the incredibly nasty, vile and uncalled for way, but I don’t think they can help it. You know I’m a firecracker when I want to be but I’m working on thinking before I say or write anything. I don’t think returning the hurt they are feeling with a hurt back to them is healthy for me or them. I just feel sorry for them that they cannot conceive that PA’s are anything other than mindless addicts who spew stupidity and nonsense (etc). If that’s the way they want to see you and that filter makes them happy then I say let them have it.

I was thinking as I read through responses to you that I hadn’t thought of the “hero” mentality that we have talked about before. Saying the reason for responding and eduring the pain is about being a hero to others. They want to save others from the dangerous addicts who dare to try to share with SO’s their point of view to help them understand. I hadn’t thought of that angle before so it’s something to explore I think.

While we will continue to go through our healing both together and separately I’m glad that we can pull each other out of those moments in time where we can get stuck and wallow in the despair. It’s not a fun place to be but I’m happy that those moments seem to be less and less for both of us as we continue this journey together.

Lastly, I just want to say the emotion that seems to be felt by some when they can avenge what has been done to them by a man, by berating and insulting anonymous men on the internet, must be a powerful one. It’s almost as if it’s an action that can’t be controlled, that it’s a choice to continue, and that they use any excuse to justify doing it. I wonder what we could call that?

 

I’ve missed you. Lol. I love your insights and positive attitude. Much like @hope4healing , you both lift me up. I wish I had your way of conveying that, I’m too blunt, lol. I’ve learned to let go with sone disagreements on here, sometimes it’s better not to respond. There are men on here really trying and then there are those so deep in their addiction they view every response that disagrees as an attack. Then there are SO’s so deeply hurt they feel dismissed or invalidated if the addict defends ( explains?) their struggle.

 

Well I just came back to grab some things for a project for right now. I definitely remember why I backed away from this place. It has its purposes and I am forever thankful for all the help and support I got here. I know that maybe someday when I am in a much better place I can be back here to help. I just can't right now.

 

It doesn't always need to be about fixing them, sometimes you can choose to have fun by seeing them run out of options as they endlessly twist in their mental gymnastics. And everything they said ends up being disadvantageous as you go further into the discussion. But I guess that's what you'll get by trying to justify the unjustifiable, they'll only end up being the ones to sabotage themselves.

 

@GID2020
Thanks for your vote of confidence. It does make a difference. I think I forgot something I journaled about a week or so ago; a person can hear you only when they first feel understood, and second, when they feel the person speaking is on their side. I forgot I am seen as an enemy, so I didn’t take the necessary preamble and I accept that responsibility.

In that vein I think you’re correct; an SO needs time to communicate their pain. “Hate” is too strong a word for it. If there’s lasting hate, the relationship will probably have to end before she (sorry, I know women get addicted but the SO is usually female) can begin healing. But there must be a choice made, by both the addict and the SO, to put aside their anger, disgust, fear, etc., and work on rebuilding trust. Of course the addict bears responsibility for his behavior as well, working hard on himself in addition to the relationship. Right now I’m not working on my relationship at all.
The problem, though, is that some addicts aren’t willing to work on themselves. That’s usually the case, unfortunately, when the SO discovers the addiction first and comes here looking for help. Sometimes, rarely, she can persuade him to start an account here, but nobody can start the process of actual recovery but him. Sometimes an SO drawing an ultimatum brings him (partially) to his senses, but sometimes not & the relationship is done. Another problem is if an SO chooses to hang onto that anger, seeking vengeance for her pain instead of healing. Hasn’t happened to me, but I’ve seen it. Anger feels good, especially when it also feels justified. But it won’t fix the relationship. She’s eventually got to decide if she’d rather have a husband, or a dog to kick around.

She does have to make her pain known first, though. To her addict. Doesn’t do any good to lash out at other addicts. To be completely fair, there are dudebros who swoop into this particular section like Comanche warriors, to scalp the wounded. They claim men wouldn’t turn to P if the SO was good enough and this is a lie. Not true. P doesn’t even operate in the same sphere as true intimacy, it has nothing to do with real S except to distort and pervert it.
But anyway, after an SO makes her pain known to her addict, the next step is choosing to believe whether or not he’s evil. I probably shouldn’t have tried to propose that he isn’t at this stage, but there are voices already poisoning that process and insisting all (male) addicts are necessarily evil, based only on assumptions.

If I’ve learned anything from observing this forum over the years, it’s that you can’t rush someone else’s process. Addicts, including myself, run through an extremely predictable cycle of bargaining and blaming and whining (my God, we whine), before we come to terms with what must be done to recover. I think SOs probably have to go through a similar process. I wish you all the best with that, truly.

 

I went through times when they hoped to make feel like the 'dog being pinned', but I consider it to be a form of training. I don't know if others may understand, but going through such experiences enhances one's ability to stay calm in those situations and focus on reason instead.

It's also ridiculous and childish to see the opposite side resorting to more than one member responding at a time, while I was dealing with it alone.

 

I don't know about evil. But the point is that whether they are aware or not that their PMO habits would hurt their SOs. And I believe yes they are aware, based on the clear evidence of them doing everything in their power to stay covered.

It means that they are conscious of the reaction it would provoke from their SOs and try to avoid it as long as they can.

This certainly not an assumption, as there's more than one SO to testify to it. .

Let's imagine that the PMO addict is skilled enough to hide his traces flawlessly, and is able to maintain a perfect illusion of normalcy, would he afford bothering himself with his SO's feelings in case he can guarantee nothing is at stake ? That there is little chance he'll ever face any backlash from his SO ?

If you ask me, it is safer to be wary about the voices trying to dismiss what the average addict's behaviour indicates, and delude its importance using sentimentalism.

Relying mostly on emotions to analyze the actions of others can only trap the person doing this, in the sense they'll end up dismissing important clues in the favour of sweet denial.

 

I had been with PA that actually never denied or lied about what I discovered when confronted .. He was also never sorry