A frank discussion about Christians, Christianity and God

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Eric'sBlue, Jan 31, 2016.

  1. Heffe

    Heffe Guest

    You pose a really good question. It's a very hard question to answer. I'm not sure there will ever be a "best" answer or "logical" answer for every person but I'll try to explain it the way I have answered that question for myself.

    I need God because without an objective standard of right and wrong I cannot know the difference between good things and bad things. If my opinion is just as valid as yours who am I to say one thing is correct or better than the next? Without an objective and unchanging standard of measurement, how can I know what is right and wrong? I need God to give me the standard of truth.

    I need God because truth matters. As I've mentioned previously, I need God to give me the measure of truth. Truth only matters because God exists. If God doesn't exist then who cares what I believe! If I want to believe that 2 + 2 = 19 why does it matter? At the end of my life I'm dead. It doesn't matter what I did or believed. I need God because without him truth doesn't matter. (This is probably a poor example of my thoughts but I hope it makes a little sense.)

    I need God to show me what real love is. Again, without an unchanging standard of something I cannot know what is correct. God demonstrated His love for me by doing something for me even though I didn't deserve it. God forgave my debt towards him even though there was nothing in it for himself. I believe that love is an essential human need. If I don't know what love is, how can I love others who are longing for this essential need? I need God because without him, there is no such thing as love.

    You don't need God to feel "happy". People are happy all the time without God. It's been my experience that most people who live without God are happy. The difference is, the being (God) who created my soul and spirit knows how to make me the happiest I can ever be. He has promised me eternal happiness if I choose to trust him. I don't need God to feel happy but I do need God to keep me happy and satisfied forever.

    I think it comes down to this: You don't have to believe in God. God won't force you to do that. God loves you. The real kicker is that God will judge me and you for the choices that you and I make here on this earth. I can choose to respect this or to reject it, but ultimately the choice is mine.

    I hope I have answered your question just a little bit. I really don't want to argue on the internet because that is not beneficial for anyone. If you have any questions feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to answer.

    Heffe =)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2016
  2. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Not even an inkling of truth? :)

    To communicate in this medium we often use hyperbole... and frankness.
     
  3. I did say "perhaps it is that way for some," but for my religion, which is Christianity, as a true follower of Christ, no, there is not an inkling of truth there. I understand hyperbole and frankness, but when discussing something as precious to someone as their God, you can't expect people to not be hurt or offended by blanket statements like that.
     
  4. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Don't make it about a criticism of [your] God. It is about being critical/ rational about the particular church tradition we belong to. Because as I think we all agree, Christianity and Church go together like a horse and carriage.... inseparably linked but not the same thing

    Look, consider the context here – we are posting on a forum where most are trying to rid themselves of the evil of P. Let's be frank- I'd say near half of the men lined up in those clean whitewashed warehouses of today are struggling with porn in the privacy of their bedrooms! I imagine that those same men also make up half the people frequenting this very forum! I know because I was once one of them. We need to ask why is there such a struggle with this. I'm convinced it's because the churches have largely been sterilized of beauty, there is nothing there that strikes deep, in which men can find an emotional connection and release. The ancients and medievals recognized long ago the need to connect Eros to Divine love, and this was the essence of all Church art. Yet, sadly the art, and the ritual, was smashed to smithereens by puritanical Neanderthals. Little surprise that half of us be Neanderthals in the privacy of our own homes then.

     
  5. Phibz

    Phibz Fapstronaut

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    This isn't remotely a logical answer. I don't need a god to dictate what's right or wrong. It's something I'm capable of feeling. What may be normal for most may be immoral for some. It depends on what has been instilled in you by your societal standards.
    Your truth may matter to you. But I dont need a god to know truth. Truth is about dropping any preconceived notions that you have been taught. We are taught all kinds of things from birth. We're taught our names, we're taught what religion to believe in. We absorb so much from our parents. That doesnt mean it's true. It just means that's how we're wired. Part of my recovery has been largely due to my un-wiring. Truth is a very hard pill to swallow. Not to be taken lightly.

    I dont need a god to know what love is. Love and compassion is something I have found through understanding my own demons and seeing them in my fellows. I am able to feel their pain, because I can relate to them as an extension of myself...and not something separate.

    I dont worship a god and I am happy. I'm happy with being myself and thinking for myself. I dont need prayer. I dont dwell on where I've been. I dont anticipate the future. I plan in a practical sense and I learn from mistakes. I have goals. But the journey is more important to me.

    And lastly, this isn't an argument. This is a discussion in a public forum.
     
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  6. Burty

    Burty Guest

    So after I looked up the word Coersive, I sorta, kinda, possibly knew where one might be going, then I just gave up, this is a great post but what is your main point in relation to PMO..

    Because that I find interesting, I don't know about you, but I being one of these Christians myself, I find it rather interesting, that i have to come to a great site such as this, to share something that has had me in slavery for the past 25 years...

    Now Another interesting, thing is and this might be another generalism, I am sort of good at that, but I did notice some of my Muslim brothers also doing the same thing..

    I personally think people are not good at opening up, people are not always grand at sharing their innermost thoughts concerns and worries, I wonder if they did what would happen, to them would they gain a sense of peace on the subject? maybe they might trip over some trust for their fellow brother regardless of denomination faith and religion. they might if their lucky let the trust form in to something that so many of us try to find, and thats love..?

    Now peace trust and love, just by opening up to one and other that sounds the basis of all faith's or doesnt it..?

    I can't fix the church, and its differences, but I can play my part, and that is just being Burty! Me!

    Ps, Hope you find a satisfactory outcome on this will keep an eye on this thread..

    pps, if you post your top 3 concerns that would be great, i am not always good at trying to work out whats what?

    ppps, ah I see you posted in offtopic... I am all very new to this, sorry :)

    pppps, still a great post, and i am happy to help with any questions... :)
     
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  7. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    :D
     
  8. Lightningbob1964

    Lightningbob1964 Fapstronaut

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    I used to be a christian. An attact of science, which I love and appreciate very much, made me question my faith. I came to realize one man's faith is as good as another's. If they conflict and are both equally valid, how can we tell which is correct?
    I know a lot of immoral, strongly religious people. I discovered everyone makes their own morals. If they came from the same source they would be the same. My morals are based on simple things. Don't punish people for the way they were born. Treat others with kindness and help them when you can. There probably is no god. Live like this is your only time to be alive.
     
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  9. I hate that this is even something people feel the need to say :/ I mean, duh. Of course you know a lot of immoral, strongly religious people. Everyone is immoral in some ways. Christians or other religious people aren't God, they're just people who fail and make mistakes and do shitty things like everyone else.

    Just to clarify, I'm not like "angry" or "annoyed" that you said that. I'm just irritated that things have gotten to a degree that people view Christians as if they think they are without sin, which isn't true at all.
     
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  10. EarthDragon

    EarthDragon Fapstronaut

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    First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for the very civil tone they use in this discussion about God, faith, and Christianity. I had to leave a few months back because some people were not able to communicate in a civil way. Secondly, I'd like to make a few comments as a Christian.

    1. You can't judge a philosophy by its abuse. This is the number one mistake I see all the time. Someone says he's a Christian, yet doesn't act like it, then Christianity must be false / bad. That logic is terribly mistaken. You must always assess a philosophy by it's own, and not about its misuse.

    2. I see guys talk about being one phisophy being "better" than another. I think the best philosophy is the one that corresponds to the structure of reality the most. That is if you believe in reality in the first place. Without reality, talking about its non-existent structure is meaningless. This is a philosophy on its own, but I don't see good evidence for it. If you think that there is actually a reality, then you need to examine various philosophies, and see if they describe what you see and what you experience. I went through the lenghty process of this and I think the Jesus of the Bible got it right.

    Ultimately I think that even the most rational person has emotional questions, and dealing with these questions can be really challenging. Why is all that suffering in the world? Why do bad things happen to my loved ones and me? Why did I lose my job? Why did my wife / husband cheat on me? Why can't I seem to quit porn? Why is such thing as porn there in the first place?
    These are tough questions, and sometimes the answers are equally tough. Truth can be harsh, but also enlightening at the same time. I think the Gospel is a very powerful message that sheds a lot of light on what is happening in the world and why. It doesn't offer all the answers though.

    Have you guys ever heard the Gospel at all, or did you just get your informations bit by bit? The Gospel is:
    1. There is a God. He loves you, but he has a problem with you. Why?
    2. Because He is perfectly just. He can't let any crime go unpunished. Adultery, fornication, lies, idolatry, it's all crime. You wouldn't let a rapist go free because he helps the neighbour with the laundry sometimes, right?
    3. You are not bad in the eyes of God because you do bad things. You do bad things because something is very wrong with you. You're broken. You doesn't function like you ought to. The consequence of this is deadly.
    4. God also perfectly loves you, so He made a cure. A way out of the mess. A way to heal the brokenness. He is offering it to you. For free.
    5. And now you have a choice.

    I often hear that God sends people to hell. I don't think this is an accurate description. Hell is being separated from God, while Heaven is being in the presence of God. You are going to be end up in one of those states. Because either you want to be with God, or do not want to. God will not force Himself on you, he respects you too much to do that.

    Now, to close this. Either what I wrote is true, and it does affect you, or it's not true, and I'm talking nonsense. Don't you think that it'd be a good idea to examine the topic a bit more closely? Maybe read the Gospel of John, if nothing else.
    I'm not here all that often anymore, but I'll gladly answer questions when I get the chance.
     
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  11. Eric'sBlue

    Eric'sBlue Fapstronaut

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    This sounds like moral relativism, which isn't factual...that is not based in reality, and is dangerous and deluding. The whole thing of truth is that it's truth - it's true for me it's true for you, it's beyond us. That's kind of the point we are searching for, right?
    If I make up my own stuff, you make up yours, we can instantly see if we are unclouded (like just ask a child this and I can guarantee they'd know it was false) that this won't work, it is false. It is a self defeating premise.
    IMO this is why people are so messed up nowadays. You have a lot of self deluded, narcissistic people, thinking that you create your own reality; that all our realities are different, when you don't, and our realities are different and the same at once.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
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  12. Heffe

    Heffe Guest

    I think I understand your point of view but I think you are wrong.

    First I want to point out that truth is "that which corresponds to its object” or “that which describes an actual state of affairs.” Truth is not relative but absolute. Truth is not a "feeling" but an actual fact and an exclusive statement. If something is true, it's true for all people, at all times, in all places. All truth claims are exclusive. Here's an example: Just think about the claim “everything is true.” That’s an absolute, narrow, and exclusive claim. It excludes its opposite (i.e., it claims that the statement “everything is not true” is wrong). In fact, all truths exclude their opposites.

    You pointed out that "What may be normal for most may be immoral for some." and that "It [truth] depends on what has been instilled in you by your societal standards." I think this is a common idea but it's an incorrect idea. Truth is unchanging even though our beliefs about truth change. Here's an example: When we, humanity, began to believe the earth was round instead of flat, the truth about the earth didn't change, only our belief about the earth changed. In the same way society may teach us beliefs about truth but it does not define what truth is. Truth is discovered, not invented. Truth exists independent of anyone's knowledge of it or anyone's beliefs about it.

    Absolute truth exists. If someone where to make the opposite claim that absolute truth does not exist, they would be making a self-defeating claim!

    I remember a parable about an elephant is being examined by six blind men. Each man feels a different part of the elephant and thus reaches a different conclusion about the object in front of him. Some people use this story to show that truth is relative to each individual. They suggest that the truth is subjective and not objective. This might seem reasonable but what about the man who is telling the story? The story teller seems to have an objective perspective and observes that the blind men are horribly mistaken. So if the person telling the story can have an objective perspective, why can't the men who are examining the elephant? I suppose that they could have an objective view but they would have to be able to see clearly. In the same way I was once willfully blind to the fact that there is a objective moral standard. Upon further inspection I came to the conclusion that God is the author of this standard and that he demands that I follow His standard. God won't force me to obey His standard but one day He will judge me against His standard. Personally I'm glad I discovered this truth so I can prepare beforehand!

    Heffe =)
     
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  13. Phibz

    Phibz Fapstronaut

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    You're smoke-screening. You still haven't given me a reason as to why I need a god. Your take on truth is very contradictory. Is it subjective? Or absolute? Can you prove that a god was the author of this standard you speak of? I dont need a god to judge me. I hold myself accountable. I'm happy living my life as I am. I cant understand why I would seek to change anything. I'm open to what works for others. But no one can answer that simple question.
     
  14. Eric'sBlue

    Eric'sBlue Fapstronaut

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    God is what ancients ascribed to noticing their objective reality around them.
    I hope you realize, this purposeful secular divorce of God from life, from everything as just an opinion, a choice, is just an idea, and a really abstract or unnatural one - to put it into perspective. It's an idea, to divorce God from reality...which doesn't at all make it real. It's particularly deceptive/nasty in that it's deceived a lot of people and cheapened their lives with darkness.

    You don't need a god. You need God, because He's all there is...God is everything, call it how the world works, how the ancients noted and saw, observations about how they noticed the universe works. "God" is wisdom of how the world works. Why not...embrace this?

    These (ancient) people were pure and sincere in their aims; it was a different time. There was no socialism; which puts out propaganda to purposely divorce and destroy "God" in the minds of people.
    Have you ever asked your self, why is it so important for them to try and get you to believe there is no God with endless bombarding or messages. Or did you just believe it - what they said. If they said you were brainwashed to "believe in God" would you listen to them, just because they said it?
    do you think they're doing it just for fun. Have you ever wondered or doubted the sincerity of these people?...and conversely, have u ever wondered about the sincerity of those speaking to u about God? Everyone stands to gain from something worldly things, all except those who are really truly speaking of God. It seems wrong because living under God tells you how it is best to act...it gives consequences. And we are tempted with freedom, but this is not in line with reality, that's why most people eventually figure it out after much suffering and turn to God. It's even more tempting when you have a force of 'authority' proclaiming unlimited freedom for you. What do these people stand to gain from this? ..do you feel free, when you go outside of your house, or enslaved. Is it an illusion? God is love... Often the most lies are put out to try and make you turn away from what would help you most.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  15. That is your perspective. A viewpoint. :)
     
  16. Heffe

    Heffe Guest

    I'm not trying to put up a smoke screen. I'm sorry if I sound confusing.

    Truth is absolute. Truth is not a "feeling" but a fact. If something is true, it's true for all people, at all times, in all places. To say that absolute truth does not exist is a self-defeating statement.

    I need God because I need a solid reference point for everything in my life. Without God everything is subjective. Maybe you don't need truth in your life but I certainly do. I need absolute truth from doctors, from road signs, from airlines, and any other fact provider on this earth. I need God because I need an unchanging reference point for everything in life. You need God because you need an unchanging reference point for everything in life.

    I cannot prove for 100% certainty that God is the giver of this standard. This is because I cannot prove that there is a God for 100% certainty. If there is a God (and I believe there to be) his character is the standard. At the end of the day each one of us must look look at all the evidence, and to the best of their ability, honesty evaluate if there is a God or not. I have found there to be enough evidence to say that there is a God behold a reasonable doubt. No matter what way you want to live, you need faith. I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

    Heffe =)
     
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  17. Eric'sBlue

    Eric'sBlue Fapstronaut

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    It is the truth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  18. Phibz

    Phibz Fapstronaut

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    Why do I need an unchanging reference point? How will a god provide this? I dont understand.
     
  19. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    You are all heretics!:rolleyes:

    1175-1225; Middle English heresie < Old French eresie < Latin haeresis school of thought, sect < Greek haíresis, literally, act of choosing, derivative of haireîn to choose

    You all choose to think for yourself- heresy.

    It would seem that heresy is the new orthodoxy.
     
  20. Boomer49

    Boomer49 Fapstronaut

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    This certainly begs the question did god make man or did man make god? There are many unanswerable questions in life such as: Why are we here? How did we get here? Why are we aware of ourselves, sentient? Where was I before I was born? Where will I go after I die? Why is there evil in the world? Why do good people have to suffer? And, on and on. Unanswerable questions no one can know the answer to with certainty and truth.

    Now, if you create a supreme being who is alleged to have put all of this into place, who is the creator of all, who knows all, who guides all, then we mere humans are off the hook for having to find an answer to the unanswerable questions. Mankind can then put all faith into a god that may or may not be there. There is no way of knowing for certain. One can put their faith in the existence of a god, a trust that there is an entity with all the answers, but in the end, there is no certainty only conjecture and supposition.

    No, I cannot explain why the earth revolves around the sun and day passed to night, the miracle of birth or the certainty of death, why I am aware of myself. These questions are unanswerable. Period. And, for this reason I am an atheist. Coincidence, having the right stuff at the right time put all of this into motion, will have to suffice as an answer. Not knowing, and being alright with not knowing, will have to suffice as an answer. Since humans are unable to cope with questions unanswered and alternative had to be developed to provide peace and calm... and control once man got involved with religion.

    I am not out to change anyone's mind. If you have faith and believe in a supreme being I'm OK with that. Please don't try to convince me of it, though. I respect your freedom to believe as you want, provided you do no harm to another. Gotta stop, there's so much more to say. Good discussion.

    *B49*
     
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