Women, do you ever test your partner?

I don't think it's consciously either. Im not interested in getting into a debate of battle of the sexes here. But women test men relentlessly especially during the dating phase looking for the attributes they desire. In general men aren't looking for those same attributes. I think it would only be natural for women to test men after experiencing betrayal. What I find is that it can get easy to "be offended" by these tests instead of accepting them as natural. I think that's what Thor is expressing and he's working through how to change that reaction.

 

What does it stand for?

 

Significant other (wife, girlfriend, ...)

 

I relate with much of this friend.

It hurts to be shut out, especially when putting in lots of effort.

 

Honestly, this is precisely the reason why I abhor the very idea of marriage.

This makes no sense to me at all. A wife is complaining when you offer "too much" attention, and then complain in the next breath when she gets too little. This to me sounds like emotional abuse and gaslighting on the part of the wife.

Secondly, if a husband is an addict and is trying to recover (no doubt in part so that he can save his marriage/family), and the wife withdraws because he's too clingy??? What does that even mean? Imagine if a husband left the emergency room because his wife was too loud while in labour? Maybe not an accurate equivocation, but hopefully one might see my point.

It seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong), that the proverbial wife expects her husband to read her mind like a telepath and know just how much attention to give and when, and the burden of responsibility is on him when he give too much or too little. Meanwhile, there's no mention of the emotional support SHE gives her husband in his time of need. He must serve her needs how she likes it when she wants it, in exchange for nothing.

Remember that suicide is the leading cause of death in some countries for men, and they do it far more than women (some men on this forum admit to being suicidal). A married man addicted to p.m.o who wants to change needs all the help he can get, and yet wives are manipulating their emotions and withdrawing when they need the most help. That's immature and abusive in my view.

In fact, I'll even gi as far as to imply what most of us already know but refuse to admit out loud: Why does a married mean need Nofap in the first place, let alone p.m.o to begin with? Isn't that the whole point of a marriage? To satisfy each other's needs when they arise? To have and to hold, in sickness and in health, for as long you both shall Live?

Someone in this discussion has a Bible verse in their username. Didn't St. Paul say that a man should not deprive his wife, and vice versa? 2 Corinthians 7:3-5, I think.

That's something to think about.

But back on topic: I'm sure if the genders were reversed, and a husband was "testing" (a.k.a abusing/gaslighting) his wife in this manner, we would all call it out for what it is. If a husband tested his wife sith food after she gained weight after pregnancy, or toyes with the room temperature to test her during menopause. This is childish to me.

But it's clearly a one-way street, as most gendered issues in today's world tend to be.

I personally don't understand how a husband (or spouse in general) can be clingy, especially when. Your life partner, who you share a home, bed, and secrets with. Maybe someone can explain that to me...

 

Haha I'm a converted Catholic. My priest was taking about the vocation of marriage with me and how his choice of vocation with the church was his similar choice he made. He joked with me that he thinks at times living in celibacy looks a whole lot less stressful sometimes than being married to another person. I really appreciate his intuition and humor on serious topics.

Aside from my wife though my marriage is very rewarding. My daughter is great, and it's one of the best parts of my life spending it with her. My father in law and I talk daily, we are great friends and it's awesome. As well as brother in law's. For me these relationships are very fulfilling parts of my life my marriage has given me.

Yes this can be unfortunate. I often feel my wife considers her needs and disregards mine. It can be very hurtful.

I felt this way until I started listening to SOs feelings on these things. And how they actually feel about their partners addictions and behaviors.

I agree with your main point, but have realized that I don't think I can say that while also acting out my lustful desires outside of my marital bed. Once that's been done I have violated the marriage and can't expect the dynamic of my sexual needs to being met. A cliche way to say it might be "You can't have it both ways". I can't live in active addiction and expect my wife to fulfill me sexually if that makes sense. I used to think I could but realize it doesn't work that way. Now that I'm faced with that choice I'll choose real life intimacy every day of the week.

EDIT: Don't forget the "forsaking all others" part of traditional marriage vows. And what the Bible says about lust and how just the thought of lust is the same as acting it out.
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The challenge though is that within the marriage both partners need to heal in their own way. The addict from the addiction. And the partner from the betrayal and deceit they experienced. That's what makes this so messy unfortunately I think.

I do agree, men's issues are shamed, disguarded, and ignored. I hope we can continue to have conversations about how men and women both have unique issues and they are all worthy of being talked about and valued.

 

A couple things here, since you pointed out my comment and then felt the need to quote Corinthians and then imply men wouldn’t need porn if the wife met his needs. St. Paul did indeed say a man should not deprive his wife, and vice versa. My husband isn’t just a porn addict ( using porn decades before he met me, but please tell me how I contributed to this) he is IA which about 30% of sex addicts are. So, we married 31 years ago, got married on Saturday and by Tuesday my husband was telling me no on our honeymoon. I’m 23, waited to have sex for marriage and my husband is telling me no! 3-6 months into the marriage I’m begging him to go to marriage counseling because something was wrong. No. He said he will never go to counseling. So I buy books, I talk to my pastor, I pray harder, I beg him to talk. No. I sign up for couples Bible studies, couples retreats, I beg, I scream, I cry,I try talking logically , rationally ( and he tells me I’m a nympho and something is wrong with me) I workout, lose weight, , buy lingerie, and he just ignores and walks away. For years. But you know the church says pray harder, initiate sex, be there for him. So I am. In spite of the fact that he was not ever there for me, not once. 5 years in and I discover his dirty little secret sex life. Here he was telling me he’s too tired, he’s got a headache, he doesn’t have time to have sex with me but he’s jacking off daily to porn. All while lying to me . You have no idea. I stopped asking at 25 years in because not one single time had he said yes. Not once., I laugh at the men who cry that sometimes their wife says no and how much it hurts. Try never getting a yes, for decades. This is not uncommonly for porn addicts. They prefer porn over sex with their spouse and they deprive their spouse!
Now to the needing space part. You learn to do life alone when married to an addict. They are not there for you in spite of them thinking they are great husbands and fathers. So you learn to quit asking them to be. My husband just recently retired. This has made him a bit clingy because he has so much time and no hobbies.So we are literally together 24/7. My needing space occasionally is not abusive in fact it’s healthy. Healthy people do not do every single thing together. I think my taking an hour or two a week isn’t going to kill him or leave him despondent . He’s the co dependent he needs to learn to thrive on his own and know he will be fine without me. And you know what? He is, he is learning to make friends, to learn new hobbies and take chances, learning to put himself out there without me.
Sex Addicts have some of the most supportive partners in the world. You tell me how much lying, cheating, gaslighting, abusive behavior you would put up with before you left? How many sti’s before you’d file for divorce? But yes, my needing space is the problem , or my testing for safety is the problem , not the lying, cheating, abuse or gas lighting that precipitated the “ testing”.

 

I'm sorry Psalm and Hope, I need to vent... please try and be understanding. I feel I need to say this to start, I don't take a single feeling you have experienced for granted. Your thoughts, feelings, and input are always appreciated by me.

Please don't think that this is exclusive to you, and please don't blame P addiction as the only reason women also reject men. I also waited days to consummate my marriage I was pissed and have beat myself up for years trying to figure out my marriage issues. Even though we did have sex eventually, and I enjoyed the intimacy we did share, it was very infrequent after marriage, and became non existent, this is a prevalent issue in relationships in general. If you've taken time to read my posts you know a lot of why it's happened in my marriage it isn't all about sex. I'm so tired of all the blame being put on the addict. I think I can say that without taking away a single amount of pain you experienced yourself. And for me that's the only way healing can happen. Truthful Conversations Redeem People.

I've been blamed, attacked, accused, of sexual things I have NEVER done with anyone, that my wife actually has with others, men I know well and am friends with, and I'm wrong for desiring to explore it with my wife? I was lied to, that she would NEVER do certain things with anyone when I brought them up that I have expressed interest in sharing with her. Some I still haven't shared here. I've been expected to conduct myself in certain ways to find out my wife does exactly what she told me not to do and I was blamed for the actions she made in those moments. There are men too, who feel pain, and desire connection. Truth Redeems People.

Honestly... I don't think it's a laughing issue at all... For you or anyone who goes through it. It's not a contest either. It just plain makes me sick thinking about it.

There are men, here, who desperately want their spouses, and are rejected as well. Neglected and told they are the problem for wanting intimacy. Who are told they are WRONG in what they express and feel. Who are constantly told to be quiet, and do as they are told. When it comes to relationships there are feelings and emotions that matter on both sides, EQUALLY! The sooner this can be acknowledged by EVERYONE, the better.

There are men here, who are actively yelled at for even bringing up something their wives don't want to hear or disagree with, and are blamed for all sorts of things while being controlled and manipulated. This isn't exclusive to P addicts partners.

Maybe you are different, and I'm not trying to speak for you here... But how many countless times have I heard my wife say she's "fine" when she isn't, or expresses disappointment in a gift I give her, or that I don't pick the right place to eat, when or where to spend time together, asked me if she looks "fat" and then plays 20 questions with my answer after. Tell me that if I had "gotten the hint" that she would have had sex but isn't willing to now because of something I "did wrong". The list goes on and on. I'm given absolutely no input for how I am to improve in these areas. Yes, I'm expected to read minds. I know I'm not alone in this.

I agree that no amount of sex can fix a P addiction, however in part it is about sex actually, it can be about other intimate things like emotional neglect abuse etc. You know me, but to do the post justice... Yes P is a coping mechanism for all sorts of things, anxiety, stress, insecurity, loneliness, toxic shame, fill in the blank. And at it's core it is destructive in all aspects and affects peoples minds, opinions, thoughts, and wellbeing.

But to disregard men's desires and issues, by hammering back without even acknowledging or asking how someone else feels isn't right.

Sorry, this is a sensitive subject for me, and even though my wife and I had an extremely heated long convo about it that ended well recently I still have much to talk with her about. All of your experiences mean a lot to me, they really do, and I care a lot about your wellbeing and feelings. I also though care for others who struggle, like P addicts do, and just men in general for what we go through. I'm tired of men's issues being ignored and dismissed. Even if they aren't always aligned with how I feel, I care about them just as much.

 

Hello there,

Am I to assume you're the wife on an addict by saying this, or was this meant to be hypothetical? In any case, I've noticed from my own personal observations that a woman, when challenging something being said, they'll come up with one notable exception (usually themselves) to dismiss any said claim. "I'm not like that, and therefore you are wrong," or "I'm not like that, and therefore the claim is untrue." That would be fine if not for the fact that, in general discord regarding gender relations in today's zeitgeist, women are often propped up as blameless, while all the blame is based on the man. (Jordan Peterson: They're right, you're wrong!) Even modern entertainment reflects this set of values, so while I don't know the in's and out's of your married life, and given our current cultural attitudes, I'll just have to retain a degree of skepticism.

I disagree for two reasons. 1) They're unable to communicate openly because viewing porn (despite the raunchiness of modern entertainment) is heavily stigmatized, especially for men (it carries the implication that he's unbale to get "the real thing"). 2) PA's can communicate their problem: that's what this website is all about. It's possible to speak up once there's no fear of stigma or being ostracized involved, and there's support and understanding from people willing to listen and provide solutions. Sadly, many in-person relationships aren't like that in the modern world, or at least in the West. I've known people who've taken their own lives, and I've opened up myself about problems I'm having to others: People will avoid you, gossip about you, and treat you like a pariah, and that can include one's own spouse as well. Unfortunately, that's western culture for you; even your so-called "friends"will tell you to go see a therapist when you're feeling down, proving that they're aren't really your friends, or don't understand what true friendship really entails (I believe the term is "fairweather friend"). That goes beyond marriage and is largely a cultural problem.

Besides, it seems to me like you're slightly contradicting yourself. Didn't you show in an earlier post on this thread that some significant other's can also fail to communicate their thoughts clearly to a partner?

So a significant other can also fail to communicate his/her feelings openly, even if supposedly justified by way of "betrayal trauma." Given that you gave three whole paragrahs addressing this claim, that sort of makes me doubt what you said to me afterwards:

If wives are giving so much support on one hand, and nonverbally "testing" mean (which you argued was sometimes justified in your previous comment) then you can see why I exercise a bit of skepticism when you say that wives in general give their husbands so much support. Yet as I said in my comment, genered issues these days are sort of a one-way street; the woman is perfectly justified in "testing" her husband (even when he's getting therapeutic help, as the original poster admitted), but it's wrong that he go behind her back with P.M.O? Two wrongs don't make a right. This behaviour you described should ALSO be confronted and openly dealt with, because untreated traumas can destroy a marriage. They should be called out and treated, not justified in one sex as opposed to the other.

On that note, you then said:

With all due respect, I hope you don't plan on becoming a first responder with this attitude.

What's the point of being married if one partner is forced to "battle it alone" while the other withdraws? I used gender-neutral language in the last sentence, because I know you would not be saying all of this if the genders were reversed. You don't really have a marriage anymore if one partner says to the other "Figure it out yourself!" when the latter has a problem. Again, you contradict yourself:First you claim that you and a myriad of other wives have done so much, but your attitude here is that that man must figure everything out for himself? What's the point of being married then, if one partner will withdraw at the first sign of trouble, only for you to justify it when it happens (as I showed above)?

My father told me the story of a woman who just got over an addiction to painkillers, which her doctor prescibed to her after a surgery (My father was a pharmacist). Her family didn't nonchalantly tell her to "figure it out for herself," otherwise she sould have overdosed on these highly addictive opiods and possibly died. That's why I said modern relationships have become a one-way street. A man fix the marriage while the wife is along for the ride? No relationship this lop-sided has any hope of surviving.

You kind of summed that up for me, actually:

I suggestif you haven't already to browse through the subreddit "Dead Bedrooms." Many women there admit to neglecting their husbands on a regular basis, and even brag about doing so at times. When you say "But even if they didn't..." You once again proved my point: According to our modern cultural zeitgeist, women/wives are never responsible, nor do they have to take responsibility, even in cases where p.m.o came into the picture after the fact. In modern Western culture, to insinuate or flat out state that a woman carries some degree of responsibility (regarding any choice) is immediately regarded as sexism; it's either men to be blamed, or society as a whole.

I've spoken to men on this forum (via the private messages) who claim that their wives refuse them most of/all the time; what the men themselves are saying this (but I must be lying, because PA's are closed off).

I'm actually glad you said this, because I actually agree. You shouldn't make excuses for one bad behaviour in order to disparage another; the best way for married partners to succeed in overcoming addiction is to identify behaviours that can harm or sabatoge them, while working together (or through professional help) to overcome it. Betrayed partners may act on unconscious triggers just as much as PA's do, but taking one side against the other won't help fix anything.

Also, saying that married addicts are selfish and only think about themselves is a rather self-unaware thing to say, considering that a married man created this thread (one who is going to therapy), and you're a moderator on Nofap. There are tons of married men trying to fight for their marriages and save their families; to knock their efforts while moderating their threads and interactions was a slap in their faces.

Still, while we clearly have our disagreements, I do I agree with one thing you said: I do agree that no amount of sex can fix a PA; in fact, today I learned about the chaser effect.

 

There's one theme I had to finally admit, and was extremely healing for me. That two things can be true at the same time. And that as Jordan Peterson said in his book "12 Rules for Life" we need to assume someone else knows something that we don't.

EDIT: this applies to both sides. I want to make this very clear. Psalm Hope and other SOs have lots of valuable experiences and advice to offer. So do many men as well.

 

Hello friend,

I'm really glad you wrote this, as I couldn't have said it better myself.

This is 1000% true.

This thread was starting to turn into "the battle of the sexes:" Who has it worse, the addict or his wife? In discords such as this, it's normal for men and women to view things from their own perspective and double down when challenged, while viewing the other side as having tunnel vision. Still, I'm glad @Psalm27:1my light wrote that post; I don't always get the chance to see things from the perspective of the struggling spouse.

Now, Thor said he married at 22, while Psalm has married almost as long as I've been alive. This explains a lot, especially the cultural viewpoints and vast age differences; it's amazing how different generations can be. When I originally saw the comments I responded to, I spoke mainly from the viewpoint of my own accursed generation, and the issues that currently plague us. For example, where I live, it's almost unheard of for anyone to be married at 22; marriage is practically dead where I live, due to the crippling cost of living among other factors.

I agree with this as well. Western culture has turned modern-day women into "sacred cows," where men have to bear the brunt of failed relationships, even when he did everything he knew to do right. Sadly, such men receive no sympathy or consideration. I come from a generation/culture of rampant narcissism, smartphone/social media addiction, bathroom/gym selfies, etc. In my generation, marriages almost never happen, but hook-up culture (for those who have that option), single motherhood and the normalizing of innumerable degeneracies are treated not only as normal, but as a woman's right/female empowerment.

This rampant narcissism has destroyed marriage, made divorce/family court heavily biased, and men like myself avoid the whole song and dance like the plague. In my country, a woman can claim your assets if she lives with you for a few months (even if you aren't married). In divorce, the attitude is "a woman should take it all," and the laws most certainly reflect this. Case-in-point, men are always blamed in my culture when the relationship fails, because in my culture, to point out a woman's wrong doing in any capacity gets you labled sexist and bad.

A girl can even accused you of "outrage" (an antiquaited terrm for forcing oneself), and now there's talk of removing jurors from these cases, even with so many false accusers being caught (and then being let off). All this has made me anti-marriage since boyhood, and all this came to mind when I read this thread, and I admit my response was projection.

To be extremely honest, my answer is the same as it's been my entire life: "The best way to win the game is to not play." I've never associated marriage with anything positive; either one partner is out to use the other, or they're both out to use each other. While I do wish marriages fared better, I truly believe they are already dead.

Anyways, you provided much needed context, and I've learned a lot from these responses.

 

I relate with most of what you have expressed here.