Why People Hate the Red Pill - Survivor Bias

Red pill is for lost men searching for direction in life, who harbor anger and an excessive need to assert themselves because deep down they lack self-esteem. They wear the mask of a strong man to suppress their perceived flaws (which are actually qualities), such as sensitivity. When you talk to your parents, I'm not sure you feel the need to act like an alpha male simply because you know they accept you as you are, and you can be yourself. However, when dealing with a group of strangers or a woman you're interested in, you lack confidence, so you prefer to hide behind pointless concepts that have never helped anyone and have fueled unhealthy and toxic relationships for years. So that if she rejects you, she isn't rejecting you, she is rejecting the strong alpha male lol. So it hurts less.

That's actually being weak. It's still the same fear, the fear of being rejected. And in 2023, some guys continue to believe that they have to be stronger and more masculine than others to avoid rejection and finally gain control over all aspects of their lives because that's how it was in evolution, blah blah blah.
These same guys are not even capable of saying hello to a woman they're interested in because they believe it's up to the women to approach them. They think they are so valuable, so why would a woman miss out on that? But unfortunately, women still don't come to them, so they continue with bodybuilding, eating proteins, "focusing on themselves" (lol), and remaining alone throughout their youth, all while holding onto anger because others don't give them the attention they believe they deserve. typical narcissistic behavior.

 

I don't think women disliking the Red Pill has anything to do with the survivor bias. I think it's because lot's of the Red Pill philosophies are kind of anti women's equality. I mean they glorify men having lot's of casual sex with many women and at the same time s–shame women, they say women should submit and follow orders of a man for no reason other than just the arbitrary reason that men are supposed to be the alphas, they say that only value in a women is how hot she looks and how good she submits to the man's orders, they say that it's ok for men to cheat in a relationship but women should be faithful, and if a woman has some self respect and brakes up with a man who is not faithful and is abusive they blame that woman for braking up the family, etc, etc, etc. This is not just jerks being jerks and they would have been jerks anyways, no, this is fundamentally tied into the mainstream Red Pill way of thinking. A lot of the guys get brainwashed into these red bill point of views, they indeed would not have become jerks, as you call them, if not for other jerks perpetuating their Red Pill philosophy.

I mean the Red Pill is fundamentally about male supremacy. And that appeals to a lot of guys who have been stuck at the bottom of societal hierarchy; people need villains, somebody to blame, so they blame women/leftism/feminism/etc, because it makes them feel like they know where they are at and therefore a hope to get out of it, nobody likes to be lost—the world full of evil, without a Devil, feels absurd and meaningless, so I get it. But at the same time there is a way how to improve yourself without trying to bring others down and blame them for your troubles, that's called a victim complex. And obviously women don't want to be treated like they are less then, which makes sense, nobody does, so naturally they will dislike that stuff. Women don't want men to become alphas not because becoming more alpha will make them more masculine, that's not what women think when they think of an alpha, they think of a guy who is trying to elevate himself by bringing everybody else down. And that's what it is in Red Pill to be honest, most men there try to be alphas by dominating other men and women.

Have you heard of Simon Sinek's "Leaders Eat Last"? That's what true alpha is, somebody who puts pack's needs before their own, for the pack to benefit, and as a result is elevated to a position of respect and leadership, not somebody who dominates others by oppressing them through power, that's backwards. I think Jordan Peterson called this the hierarchy of competence, or something like that, as opposed to a hierarchy of power. But Dr Peterson is not s Red Pill, he's just a traditional conservative; even Peterson has called the Red Pill mentality toxic at one point when he was talking about the Jungian shadow. That's what Red Pill Alphas are, they are a manifestation of a collective shadow.

 

What the hell did I just read? What just happened to me? I feel like I was just dragged five miles behind a pickup truck on a plastic disk sled.

 

I don't agree with this choice of words you're using, because this is human's natural inclination towards behavioural determinism talking. What you call alphas are simply men that women find attractive, whereas the so-called sensitive men are guys that -while admittedly likeable as people - are unattractive to women. In other words, men who are attractive (physically, since that's the first thing we notice about a person) are getting more positive feedback from women and people in general, resulting in them being more dominant and assertive. They can get away with behaviour that so-called sensitive men can't (via the halo effect).

On the other hand, so-called sensitive men are such mainly because they lack the positive reinforcement that attractive men receive, and can't fall back on their looks to get away with unpleasant behaviour. As a result, they tend to play it safe and not push boundaries.

The sensitive men you describe here are not what women want. The main reason why they are sensitive is because they are not attractive. The sad truth about human nature is that we judge books by their cover, even though many good books have bad covers and vice-versa. That said, most mate selecting species (including humans) go for what is attractive, but not necessarily what is likeable, and those are two very different things. Attractive people look good, but often lack character; what's the point in being good when you don't have to be? Meanwhile, likeable people possess character, but they may not be physically attractive, which explains why some guys get friend-zoned by women; they have a good personality, but lack good looks.

When I was growing up, there were girls who went for these men you're describing, only to end up pregnant and alone in the end. Some even ended up in domestic violence situations or were cheated on multiple times. Many of these guys had or got criminal records, and some were unemployed bums. Bottom line: being attractive often leads many to conclude that developing character is an overcompensation, reserved mainly for people that lack attractive features.

The red pill is nonsense. The truth is, when you look at most guys on the internet calling themselves "red pilled," what do you see? Older men with thick beards to hide their small jawline, teaching (or rather, scamming via PUA) other men to be degenerates (sleeping with multiple women), in order to fight back against feminism and sexual liberation. This is like pouring gasoline on a fire while it burns down your house; it makes no sense at all. Clearly, these are guys who were not very attractive to women, and the red pill is a type of psychological refuge that plays out like a revenge fantasy.

On the other hand, I'm passed the red/black pill communities.

You're mostly right, but not quite there. The red pill from where I'm standing, at least the PUA/bro-culture aspect - is about teaching unattractive men how to copy the behaviour of actual attractive men, thinking it will somehow make them more attractive to women. Meanwhile, their view of women suggests that women don't actually like them, and they're motivated by the same line of thinking as gansta rappers; sleep with multiple women as payback for women not liking them. That's probably why they think women care so much about status and resources; they aren't very attractive, so they have to attract women with wealth and the promise of popularity, while insisting women are inherently materialistic and superficial (again, the line of thinking of rappers).

I say more power to them; I personally don't see the point of wasting my time trying to attract someone that I hold such a dim view of. I'd want such a person as far from me as possible.

 

I am highly sensitive, and I've had around thirty relationships in my life. I don't consider myself attractive, but rather kind, and I genuinely care about the women I meet. You come up with a theory out of thin air and turn it into a generalization

best way to lose yourself and not know who you are with all these dating advice that are designed to sell and make you even more frustrated.

same here, I don't see this aspect in my life. I'm far from being rich; I make websites in a small company.
I have a circle of about 10 very close friends. I'm not popular, and yet I have regular relationships.
These red pill theories are not representative of reality and were invented to sell products to lost guys in search of meaning. Unfortunately, the solutions they offer don't help guys; instead, they further distance them from what's normal and prevents them from overcoming frustration and having meaningful relationships.

 

I never post on the dating related forums of NoFap. I come here because I had/have a porn addiction and have been using this site as a resource, accountability platform and inspiration for people changing their lives and overcoming this addiction to porn.

However, man are the threads on dating and other stuff here dark!! Anyone reading those would be sucked in to a vortex of such powerful negative energy. I have been reading the stuff posted by @rheinpfalz @nfpexperiment @Amalenny to name a few and the amount of cynicism and negativity both amazes and saddens me. I know @Spirituss , my current post or any other poster here would never be able to convince any of them to change their mind. They are completely steeped in their philosophy and view of how women, dating, and the world works. But I am amazed at you @Spirituss that you keep engaging in these dialogues with them trying to present the other side of the argument only to have them all jump on you and tell you why you are wrong.

But reading these threads got me thinking about something because I was in the same place as these people. I am around 30 now, was clueless with girls till 24 with zero experiences and having no idea that this is an area of life that one could improve. (Btw just for the people who love to obsess about 'Chads', I am bald, less than 175 cm in height and not white living in a country of white people.) Then I found self-help, dating and pickup advice and was able to turn my life around in that area so drastically that I feel the first 23 years of my life was part of some previous life I have lived.

I have been wondering what it is that makes people take such different paths and attitudes after being in a similar scenario and coming across the same piece of information about improving their dating lives? What it is that makes one group take massive action, collect reference experiences, change their mindsets and other aspects of themselves and reap the rewards while another group ends up concentrating on all the things that are not in their control such as modern women, hypergamy, 'Chads', feminism etc.?

And I think I found one key difference!

Reading some post by @rheinpfalz and some others I found this overall philosophy.
"Hey I tried for a while, but nothing happened, so I gave up. What is the point of trying if you don't get success? Society is ruined because of ..... We should not be required to work this hard..."

Whereas the other group who manage to transform themselves have a slightly different philosophy which goes somewhat like this:
"I would rather get rejected and fail everyday till the day I die rather than giving up! Giving up is a 1000 times worse than failing and being rejected everyday..."

The people with the latter attitude inevitably end up succeeding. If nothing, through mere persistence. When I found this stuff on improving one's dating life I was sooooo ecstatic because I finally knew that this could be improved. I did not have the "let me try it for a few days, months, years and see how it goes attitude". It was an attitude of either I am going to get this area of my life handled or I am going to die trying!

Anyways I have written a long enough post. I am sure I won't change any of the doom and gloom guys' minds and I am sure I am going to get a lot of snark, negativity and hate from them as replies or just get fully ignored. But it pains me to see that so many men are on here with such dark attitudes and I hope if some lurker who has not yet given up comes across this post, that it will help him and that he won't get sucked into this dark bottomless pit of negativity. Peace guys!

 

Ok how do u get over the fear of rejection or the pain of rejection, rejection will surely happen, some more some less, guess if u are chad u get less rejections. We should define rejections, what does it mean exactly ?

 

You will get hundreds of rejections if not thousands. You get over the fear of pain and rejection by getting rejected so much that it does not affect you anymore and you are able to laugh it off. But till you are obsessed about 'Chads' and other people who get 'less rejection' and instead focus on yourself and your journey, you will keep posting threads about Chads and cold approach and everything else being unfair forever. Choice is yours. Good luck!

 

Yes chads get less rejections, maybe we should approach women in our league like they say, some ethnicities are not attracted to me, I know for experience, some elite rich babes also not. Imagine a trashman approaching a elite manager women, will not work will it, in most cases ?

 

Why don't you go approach a couple of hundred 'elite rich babes' wherever it is you find them and come tell me?

Reality test it.

That is the difference between guys who figure this stuff out and the ones who don't. Why do you want to trust what I say? Take action brother, massive action. Then you will speak from your own experience and not ask me about things or others here.

 

Hello friend,

Contrary to what you may believe, I actually appreciate different views, no matter how much I might initially disagree with them. In fact, since I joined this forum last month, I've actually changed my mind about a lot of things that I once tenaciously cling to as gospel. Users like @Spirituss , @tawwab1 , @Thor God of Thunder and @Psalm27:1my light have caused me to question many of my deeply held beliefs and course correct, even if being proven wrong hurts at first.

I was heavily immersed in the red pill and then black pill communities for about 6 years, trying to make sense of my failures in life. While they gave answers that seemed to make sense, it was making friends with different people and hearing different points of view that inspired me to change my mind. I've since disavowed both online communities.

At the end of the day, if you've found success with women in your personal life after years of self improvement, than I congratulate you. It's never good for someone to be single against their will or lonely, and it's only natural that people want to try and find a way out. I came to the conclusions that I did because I was trying to make sense of my experiences, but new experiences (even as recent as last week) have led to me questioning the old ones.

You and I might disagree where pickup is concerned, but I say do whatever works for you. These days, I focus much more on myself, because, contrary to your earlier post, I prefer to focus more of my time on what I can control. Right now, my goal is to follow the example set by @PeaceOfMindPlz and develop my personal character and "virtue", while also leading a disciplined life. I also want to work on getting back into shape and my career development.

I don't think anyone should give up on their dreams if they don't want to. I've made my own decisions in life, and I can only be responsible for myself. Everyone else has to decide what choices they wish to make for themselves, and as I said, do whatever works for them.

Still, my biggest goal is getting porn out of my life. While I'm in no position to give anyone life advice, I've decided that no real change or higher goal can be achieved while addiction is wearing me down. I don't know if you're successful in this regard, but we can always become accountability partners of you're interested.

I give you have a wonderful day, and thank you for your insights.

 

That's generally the issue with the "I recently found Jesus and I want you to meet him too"-approach. People are different, have varied experiences and face different conditions. It's a very personal journey and when you come on about it as one size fits all it becomes very preachy. "Similar scenario" is quite a loose term.

If you look at other topics of life like work and income you find similar polarities. Some people call every business wage slavery, others praise having had to work 60 hours cleaning toilets because it built character. Either coming on as lazy or condescending, and none of this two attitudes would work very well if being the norm of the society. And there is the other issue I noticed; it's very common in this kind of discussions that the view of someones individual situation gets mixed up with ones view on society. Even though there is no contradiction in being critical towards yourself and critical towards your community. I've never been a "if life gives you lemons..."-person and I think there is often something toxic about that mindset.

 

I think I'm responding because seeing so much nonsense about a topic that touches my values affects me. If I didn't care, I wouldn't respond. Sometimes I think I'm wasting energy, and for what? I don't have the pretension of wanting to change people after all. Everyone does what they want. I also have my own issues to deal with, everyone does. And that's perfectly fine!

Good to hear! Same here. It's like you're a completely different person and that's something we should be proud of

I've heard so many guys, including the ones you mentioned earlier, say that cold approaching is useless and that it takes too much effort to have relationships. So why try? In a way, they might be right, but if I could go back six years, I would still do the same thing. I would tell that 19-year-old guy who lacks confidence that things will work out fine and that he can be proud of what he's doing.
It's not pointless. Knowing how to approach a woman, doing it well, and reducing one's fears is always something that is useful in life. It applies not just to meeting women but to other aspects of life as well, as it extends into different life areas.

Good question here, I don't know. When you are not satisfied with your situation, it's natural to want to change it, but many people choose not to, even though it's important to them.

 

If you have changed your ideas or in the process of changing them or even open to other ideas, that is amazing. Not for me, but for you and your own future happiness. I really have nothing to gain by convincing you or anyone of anything. I am not a dating coach or a self help coach or have anything to sell to anyone. I am just shocked at the amount of negativity and darkness of some of the posts on here. I shudder to think what would have happened to me if I came across posts like this when I was naive and looking for direction 5-6 years ago. I am so glad that I never came across posts or forums like this. I found empowering stuff and content that encouraged me to go take massive action and change my life and I am incredibly grateful for that.

My only hope or wish is that if there are some guys who are skimming this forum, that they do not get absorbed into this dark gloomy stuff and instead get encouraged to make massive personal transformations to achieve the things that they desire and not give up.

As regards PUA, its okay if you have different views, you do not have to agree with me. I am well aware that there are toxic elements to pickup. But the underlying premise of it is simple:

If you want to learn to play the guitar and you currently suck at it, what do you do?
You start practising it, put hours into it, consume some resources on it, practise some more and then some more.

If you want to learn programming and you currently have no idea about it, what do you do?
You start programming, put hours of work in, consume tutorials and resources, understand things, and practise some more and then some more.

If you want to learn to get good with girls and you currently suck at interacting with them, what do you do?
You start talking to girls, put hours of practise into it, consume some resources, understand and tweak things and do more and more of it.

Its the same thing. If you do something a lot, you will get better at it.

Now will there be guys who are more natural at playing the guitar or whose brains are more suited to programming and hence have an advantage? YES!

Similarly are there some guys who somehow became confident in their teens, look great, have great desirable physical attributes and hence start off with an advantage? YES!

But regardless of what advantages these others have, can you improve from where you are currently? Hell YES!

Maybe you have to put in more work, but you surely can improve drastically.

Again you are free to disagree. I am writing this more for anyone who might read this thread now or in the future and who may hopefully take action and improve themselves.

And as far as overcoming porn addiction goes, after 2 years of struggle, I am on my best streak ever. Through trial and error I have figured out things that have helped me stay away from porn. And I would be more than happy to be accountability partners with you, if you are open to that. I am always willing to support and help each other in growing. But negativity and complaining is something I have strict boundaries against and I do not want to engage in regardless of how "realistic" it maybe. Feel free to get in touch with me brother. Wish you the best

 

I don't even have to know anything about you. Reading your posts makes me sure of how much experience you have with women. It's funny I have noticed it with many other people I know. Most guys who go out and actually amass experience with talking to women generally come to the same conclusions. My experiences with approaching women, dating them, and interacting with them have taught me the same lessons that you articulate so well. In fact reading your posts, I have seen you be able to articulate some understandings that I realized only after reading that I had never been able to put into words.

In the last few months, I have sent many of my buddies who are also on the path to improving themselves with women, a link to some of your writings. They truly are insightful and I feel that even you are not fully aware of how valuable they are to someone who is on this journey or is about to start on this journey.

However, I do feel that this forum is not the right place for you. Most people here don't even realize the worth of your posts. I know you have been part of and have rejected the traditional PUA culture and the ego clashes and toxic stuff that are part of it.

But there are some newer forums which are stripped of the negative parts of pickup culture and are filled mostly with guys who are looking to start this journey of improving with women. I feel that if you started posting there, it would help way more people who are actually looking to improve this aspect for their lives and not bitching about feminism, modern women, chads and what not. If you are open to it, please let me know and we can talk about it. I would love to see you on a more positive forum and have your posts and insights help people on there.

Thank you for all your insightful posts!

 

Thank you for your message, it's nice to read all that and talk to someone with a similar vision! To be honest with you, I don't even know why I'm here. I don't even do NoFap. Being here is probably just a way to express my ideas. it's more about externalizing certain thoughts and heading in the right direction. But if it helps some guys, that's great.

As for the pickup artist movement or even the YouTube coaches approaching women on the street, I have to say that I reject a lot of things in this self-improvement approach. In 6 years, I've seen many guys, one of my friends was a dating coach, and I've met plenty of guys doing the same thing. All of this has led me to the conclusion that it's often lost guys searching for meaning who start this journey (I include myself in this).
This game never ends, there's never a finish line to all of this. It's impossible to eliminate all insecurities or become socially "perfect.".

I think self-improvement needs to be nuanced. Approaching women solely for the purpose of self-improvement can lead to no good outcomes, and it may cause one to become even more lost. However, approaching women to meet them without placing too much emphasis on self-improvement or constantly trying to do better than the previous time resonates with me more. Because I've tried both. I've stopped watching videos or overthinking things, and since then, I've been doing better.

If I could meet women regularly without cold approaches, I would do it. But I'll be honest; it's a big plus, and there's a sense of accomplishment after doing it, so I won't eliminate it from my life, and I encourage other guys to do it too. But it's crucial not to fall into extreme mindsets. My female friends find it incredible as well, as long as it's not done with the intention of forcing or manipulating relationships, solely for the ego or self-improvement purposes.

Anyway, thanks for your post, maybe I'll leave this forum soon ahah, but at least I would have had an interesting conversation other than feminism, hypergamy, or chads lol.

 

Before I react to everyone else and wax philosophical, can we define Red Pill?

 

For me, the red pill philosophy was like a medication in that it alleviated my sexual urges during my last long streak of more than 500 days. When I would get urges, I would consume red pill content on YouTube that discussed “the truth” about female nature. This helped keep my urges at bay when nothing else would (meditation, working out, etc), but the side effect was that I would feel resentful towards women. I was absolutely miserable during that streak as I seesawed between wanting to be in a relationships with women, and my feelings of resentment. Eventually my nature won, and I relapsed.

Maybe there is SOME truth to the contentions made by red pill content creators, but I think we need to be careful to not become resentful towards women as some of them are very kind and compassionate people.