well, lonely...

Actually I was surprised as well at that but I asked my Mom about this and she said its not uncommon.

My point was that you need not approach the issue from a moral standpoint, since there is no grounds to associate morality with it. At least none that I can see.

I disagree about fornication, fornication is between two people and the way the ten commandments say it : you shall not greed/lust for another man's wife.
Masturbation is a solitary practice and is a purely physical act of self pleasure. Porn may be considered fornication but Masturbation is not always associated with porn or even lust.
My niece for example is way too young to be able to experience any form of lust, she masturbate purely as a physical act and she doesn't even know to associate any shame with it because no one talked to her about how inappropriate it is.

I don't have shame from masturbation personally and I wasn't ashamed the first time either, probably because no one was there to shame me about it, but it makes me feel weaker if I overdo it and stronger if I abstain from it.

I think the shame comes from either Porn or beliefs about it being some foul deed.

I think its kind of sad if people approach this issue from shame rather than self improvement.

 

I wasn't talking about the story of Onan, I was talking about the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses at mount Sinai , they are considered among the purest communications of god in Abrahamic religions and because of their concise simplicity I consider them more valid than various interpretations of stories that followed in the bible or old testament..

 

Then I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing. I brought up Onan because that's the story where someone is punished for "wasting his seed". If we're not discussing Onan, I fail to see where you come up with the idea that male masturbation is sinful, while female is not. Are you suggesting that males can only masturbate while coveting women?

Certain species of animals, particularly monkeys, engage in masturbation. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-reproductive_sexual_behavior_in_animals

God killed him. Genesis 38: 8-10

 

I'm not here to argue theology, perhaps that is your confusion. I suggest you read my first response to you above and my last response to Akrivan..

And yes from the perspective of Abrahamic religions, male masturbation is sinful (again, not talking about the story of Onan!) but the point was that they say nothing about female masturbation.

 

I'm just confused as to what your stance is; because from what I've read, it seems as though there's a contradiction. Where in the Ten Commandments does it say that wasting your seed is sinful? I'm not trying to be difficult and pursue a conflict. I'm honestly just asking you to clarify your statement.

What I understand from what you've said:
1) Female Masturbation is not sinful.
2) Male Masturbation is sinful because it wastes seed.
3) Masturbation is not Fornication.
4) Fornication is mentioned in the Ten Commandments; but Masturbation is not.

Can you please clarify why you think male masturbation is sinful? Am I wrong on any of these points?

 

You are wrong in some of these points.

I am not a religious man.
My personal stance is that there is nothing sinful about masturbation, its a natural part of human biology with its own purposes. That said I do not wish to engage in it because I have noticed benefits that result from abstaining from it.

Masturbation is mentioned in the Ten commandments : the commandments that say that 'you will not spill your seed in vain", which likely attributes to Male masturbation since seed is semen and masturbation tends to be an aimless pastime..

 

To your question: I don't think its sexually immoral, why would it be?

I was not raised in a religious household so I was not taught that way as a kid. I would prefer to do it with a spouse of course but that is because I wish to conserve my sexual energy and exchange it with her. However I do not feel shame from masturbating, only temporary weakness and lack of focus , perhaps even disappointment if I find myself repeatedly masturbating and gradually becoming addicted and weakened by that addiction.

About Porn I think it causes negative effect because the mind is exposed to a bad form of over-stimuli and that is part of the reason I'm against it.
The shame comes from beliefs I've held or recalling how I treated other people as result of bad perceptions formed around porn watching. its not really because its fornication.

So don't take what I say as encouraging people to masturbate, masturbation is neither good nor bad, but its a fact that female masturbation is different since females do not ejaculate their eggs in the same way males do. Can female exccessive masturbation causes the same sense of weakness? I don't know .

 

Akrivane, thanks for being vulnerable. Loneliness sucks, especially when you are trying to pursue purity in your relationships. Know that you aren't alone in this though! I believe, and research backs me up, that the commands for sexual purity aren't arbitrary laws, but for our good. I'm 27, a virgin, and hoping to stay that way until I'm married. (Source 1, Source 2, Source 3)

I think your desire for physical touch is super important and something I believe you should try to fulfill in a healthy way. I know some people say they aren't touchy people, but research is showing us more and more that humans need touch as much as we need food, sleep, and water (Source 1 , Source 2, Source 3). Unfortunately, western culture is terribly touch averse. So unless you are able to move to Africa/South America I'd encourage you to try to find some safe people you can touch/hug on a regular basis. Perhaps you could join a small group at a local church, reach out to some friends you trust and vulnerably explain that a hug once a week would mean a great deal to you. (For example, I live with my sister and her husband and I regularly tell them that I need a hug when I'm feeling lonely .)

Another option might be to use something like Meetup.com to find people that like the same things you do, from sports to books, boardgames to faith, you can typically find a group that is like minded and can provide a wonderful outlet of meeting amazing people near you.

All that said, I'm sorry you are feeling lonely. It really hurts sometimes and going to sleep alone night after night can create a sense of hopelessness in wondering if I'll ever be with someone. A couple verses I really love are: Proverbs 13:12, Psalm 119:9-11, Psalm 37:1-7, and Psalm 63:1-8.

I hope some of that can encourage you and help you to know that you aren't alone in this world!

Also watch this, it always makes me smile that guy's story is really cool, so maybe read how hugs changed his life!

-Atredes

 

Okay, I'm going to ask just one last time, at the risk frustrating you.

Where does it say this? Could you be using a different version of the Bible? I can't find anything to substantiate this claim in any of my research. I've found reference to this in the Torah (but only regarding Onan, which is not what you're talking about) and in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In the Tanakh, it says that the spilling of seed makes you unclean for priestly duties; but not in and of itself sinful. "When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening." (Lev 15:16) Additionally, the Tanakh permits male masturbation for a period of 24 months after childbirth in married couples for the woman's safety.

'(Jacob) Milgrom acknowledges that the rabbis condemned masturbation... Nevertheless, "it is their enactment, not that of Scripture."' — Robert A. J. Gagnon

I'm not saying that it's not considered sinful in Abrahamic religions, I'm just saying that I can't find a Biblical source that claims that it is.

Again, I'm not asking this to debate theology; I'm only asking because these things are of interest to me and am legitimately interested in discovering an additional source.

 

In regards to morality/sinfulness of masturbation, I have a couple thoughts.

First, it is very dangerous to let nature dictate what is right and wrong. " In fact, we can see masturbation throughout nature, which leads me to believe that it, in and of itself isn't sinful." There are many things like cannibalism, rape, murder, etc. that we see in nature. Just because we see something in nature, doesn't mean it is good for us to do. Further more, just because your 3yo niece does something (which may or may not point to something much darker going on) doesn't mean that it is prescriptive behavior for us. Children are often very selfish, unkind, and arrogant, but that is obviously not the kind of attitudes/behaviors we should strive towards.

Second, I think the idea that masturbation can involve entirely pure thoughts is an optimistic one. On the contrary, I have found that I rarely if ever am able to masturbate without devolving into thinking about sexual fantasy. In addition, I have found that my sexual behavior typically builds upon itself. If I begin masturbating it isn't long before I'm using soft-core stuff, and then it isn't long before I'm looking at porn again. It is never satisfied. You can observe this in the "Getting Started" Ebook from Nofap. They explain how in addiction what use to satisfy us now isn't able to, and what use to disgust us is the only thing that brings us arousal.

One of my favorite quotes about masturbation/lust/porn is from C.S. Lewis. He states, "For me the real evil of masturbation would be that it takes an appetite which, in lawful use, leads the individual out of himself to complete (and correct) his own personality in that of another (and finally in children and even grandchildren) and turns it back; sends the man back into the prison of himself, there to keep a harem of imaginary brides...And this harem, once admitted, works against his ever getting out and really uniting with a real woman... For the harem is always accessible, always subservient, calls for no sacrifices or adjustments, and can be endowed with erotic and psychological attractions which no woman can rival... Among those shadowy brides he is always adored, always the perfect lover; no demand is made on his unselfishness, no mortification ever imposed on his vanity... In the end, they become merely the medium through which he increasingly adores himself. . . . After all, almost the main work of life is to come out of our selves, out of the little dark prison we are all born in. Masturbation is to be avoided as all things are to be avoided which retard this process. The danger is that of coming to love the prison.”
- Personal Letter From Lewis to Keith Masson (found in The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume 3)

Thirdly, while anecdotal, I have noticed in my own life, that my PMO habits are inversely correlated to the amount of time I spend with people, pursuing meaningful hobbies, and connecting to God.

I don't mean to come down harshly on you Orion, I believe much of what you are doing is hoping to reduce shame associated with masturbation/loneliness. In that pursuit, I completely agree. We are sexual beings and it is very difficult to maintain purity in our sexuality when we are inundated with sexual media, fed lies about sexuality, and encouraged to do what ever we feel like. I think the only real hope for us is to seek connection with each other, encourage each other in the midst of loneliness, and (as I am a Christian) seek strength from God himself.

-Atredes

p.s. I'd be curious to know what you mean by "the bible being changed over 50 times" leading you away from your faith. Feel free to hit me up if you wanna discuss this or anything else! Best of luck with your journey!

 

I think the main reason why we have to distinguish whether masturbation itself is sinful is whether we consider the masturbation of children or preteens sinful. I don't think a 3 year old girl is being sinful, nor do I think it's sinful for, say, a 13 year old boy who is discovering his body is sinning.

That being said, I agree with you that it's a dangerous habit to get into. While masturbation itself isn't sinful, porn certainly is. When those things are connected, real health issues arise. We get addicted and our perception of what is and isn't good is warped. It's important to note that sexuality is not sinful, nor should we feel ashamed for it; but we need to be careful not to let ourselves be controlled by it. Like anything, too much of a good thing can hurt us.

 

You are correct and I remember wrong I think. Perhaps it is from the story of Onan that I have heard that saying. Not 100% sure why I attributed it to the 10 commandments even though some religious folk consider it a sin of that severity.

First of all cannibalism , rape and murder are acts performed upon other people, typically at an age when a person already has enough conscious thought to be aware of the implications of such actions.

For the rest I Would think my Mom and my sister would have known if there was something darker going on.
Young Children are that way precisely because they are innocent of other people in almost every way, they have to learn to see through the eyes of another person, that is also why I don't think they experience lust..​

 

Thanks for the reply.

Sure, I completely agree that M is in a different category than the things I mentioned. I was saying that just because something is found among non humans (in nature) doesn't mean that it is something beneficial for us to do. (If A then B. A, therefore B.) Does that make sense?

In addition, I agree that it is theoretically possible to masturbate without sin, I just think after a certain age it will be very difficult to have no fantasy thoughts during masturbation.

I think that masturbation typically arises as a coping skill for loneliness, lust, boredom, etc. And there are healthier/less dangerous ways to satisfy those needs.

 

Ok so what do you want to do about that going from here?