READ THE REPLIES BELOW. THEY PROVIDE IMPORTANT INSIGHT. THE POST BELOW IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND SHOULD IN NO WAY SUGGEST THAT OTHERS SHOULD MO IF THEY ARE ADDICTED TO MO I know it is controversial here, but I believe MO is natural and healthy. I understand the reason people fight against it here is that, as addicts, MO is the gateway back to habitual MO and P. We are all addicts and we must all find our own ways to stay away from the habitual O that comes from sex, masturbation or porn. But, personally, I believe if you are not having sex with a partner and have been PMO-free long enough to normalise/reboot then living without MO is a really difficult thing to do. And unnatural. I have seen a lot of people on this forum struggling with physical, mental and emotional problems because they are PMO-free, but their body needs release. I am certainly not suggesting that while someone is fighting the addiction they should MO. But I do believe that MO can be good, but only occur when it has become normalised. And it will never be easy - the same strength in quitting PMO will always be needed by a PMO addict to MO naturally. I even believe the challenge is the same for those with partners. For those with partners there is the extra need to ensure the healthiness of their sexual relationship. Just because you have a partner doesn't mean that you are sexually satisfied. You may not be getting as much as you need - or you may be pushing your partner into having too much, swapping a PMO addiction for a sex addiction. So addressing your relationship is very important. But if it is necessary, for feeling healthy, happy, normal, then I believe natural, non-habitual MO is okay within a relationship. I don't believe MO addiction is the same as alcohol addiction. Alcohol is not required for biological function. And although there is all the talk about the addictiveness of dopamine, I believe dopamine itself is NOT addictive, it can only form pathways that are habitual. However, P is like alcohol addiction. It is unnatural, warps your sense of reality and encourages these addictive pathways. If you have read this far then I'm afraid you have had to suffer my rambling rant. And you might agree with it or you might think I am wrong or very wrong or an irresponsible, evil, ignorant bastard. But please remember, this is just a personal view that I put out there in a democratic way to express myself, to support others, to stimulate discussion and to receive advice or criticism and maybe friendship in return. Good luck to you all.
Hi perusan, I understand your argument, but I think it's based on a misunderstanding of the mechanisms of addiction. Dopamine and its receptors are understood in neuroscience to be the basis for all addictions, including behavioral addictions like gambling, porn and overeating. That doesn't mean dopamine is bad, just that an excessive flood of dopamine for a sustained period can affect the way the brain processes normal stimuli. Light to moderate drinkers have lower rates of heart disease than teetotalers, so it seems that alcohol in limited quantities is not just harmless, but healthy. Most people should probably drink a little, but alcoholics shouldn't, because the costs for them outweigh the benefits. If someone is a masturbation addict, then the costs may outweigh the benefits. Keep in mind that many of the psychological and physiological effects you're reading about, which you assume are just the result of lack of orgasm, may in fact be an addict's withdrawal symptoms.
I'm definitely with SodiumAttack on this one. While fapping may be natural and healthy for most individuals, it is not healthy for the addict. I am one of them. I do not have a normal brain when it comes to fapping, so I am choosing to abstain from it entirely. Alcoholics generally do not 'reboot' their brains and then go on to live normal drinking behavior, so I am not expecting to be able to do the same with P&M.
I'm agreeing with SodiumAttack and You_Can_Do_It here as well. What you've said is basically the equivalent of letting a former habitual smoker have one cigarette a day and expecting they will be able to keep themselves in check. It's not that easy.
I used to think that way because I defined PMO as literally sitting in front of the computer downloading porn and rubbing one off. After I understood the nature of my addiction I came to understand that my brain's chemical reward center rewards the release of dopamine to porn over sex, and since the brain cannot distinguish between sex and porn, neither can it distinguish between seeing porn and imagining porn, thinking of porn, remembering porn, and porn substitutes (some softcore stuff that still constitute a trigger for me). I cannot even read what is called erotic literature because when I read it I fantasize about it, think about it, picture it, and my brain releases dopamine. In the beginning of my journey I broke the P from the MO and patted myself on the back for progress. I used many of the same rationalizations you use. MO is not unhealthy, the body needs a release, etc. The problem I had, and this could be the problem you face, is that I could not MO without thinking of P. I did not have to watch it, but because I was addicted to P I could only O when thinking of some pornographic scenario. That's the problem with the brain's chemical reward center, it sees actual sex, watching porn, and imagining porn as the same, but makes no distinction between watching porn and imagining it. I suppose one could make the argument that imagined porn was less addictive than watching porn, but both are just forms of PMO. I don't criticize you and I do not think you are bad in any way. Before high speed internet porn guys did MO and were not PMOing, but they were not thinking of the images their own brains had observed and downloaded on the net. I think if you MO, you will think of porn, and that is contrary to breaking the addiction. For younger guys especially porn is the only sexual imagery they have in their head, so somehow thinking of real sex with a real person would be all but impossible. I am sure that like me many of us went through the phase where we thought we could break the P from the MO and have a more or less healthy life, but, perusan, imagined porn is still porn to the brain; no difference in the dopamine reward you are getting, or very little. Good luck to you in your journey. You are not the first and won't be the last to look for a short cut around this problem. PS: What SodiumAttach and you_can_do_it said.
Thank you all for your replies. I think it is very important for people to get a balanced view. Particularly for those who might have a similar view as mine, but are afraid to share it and therefore don't get your words of wisdom in reply. And, in most respects I see your point and agree. SodiumAttack I see your point about not interpreting addicts symptoms as physiological needs, but in actual fact are symptoms of withdrawal AND cries for validation. I totally believe no MO before not only have you rebooted, but you are also very comfortable and secure in your determination and ability to stay PMO free. And I agree with you William, but what I was suggesting was more a natural act of MO which I hadn't envisioned involving P mostly because I was imagining get to a rebooted normalised point where I had dissociated MO with P. I was more thinking of situations where you have a hard-on and it won't go. I guess, because I gave up smoking, but occasionally join a friend in a cigarette (about 3 or 4 times a year) I imagined the same for MO. And I am sure some of my belief is actually being driven by my addiction trying to bide its time, lay a little sugar pill of deception somewhere down the line. I certainly don't advocate anyone to follow my views, but maybe consider them, the good and bad.
Brother, we are all struggling. If its not this it is another. For me, and alot of others, there is no middle ground. I have tried the middle ground a number of times and failed. That is why I cannot use the middle ground any more; it does not work for me, I cannot do it, by which I mean I am too weak to do it. For me, I am either quit or I am not quit. For me to be quit I had to be quit. I don't know about MO before P. But, for me, MO after P means PMO. For me to stay quit that means no P and no M, and if I O it's with my partner. Just me, just saying. I hope you find your way, whatever that may be. There ARE multiple views on this. Good luck on your journey and peace be to you. Thank you for posting. Reading your posts and replying to them remind me what I am doing here.
I think its all relative and anything that stimulates discussion is great in my book (well maybe not anything!!) Ultimately its all personal/subjective and hearing others views etc can either strengthen your own views, repel you, or help you consider something you otherwise hadn't? And besides (and this is a purely personal preferance based on what's I believe is right for me at this moment in time), I'd much rather be engaged in a healthy debate than a healthy wank right now(!!)
How can you say MO is natural here? That's like going to a drug rehab centre saying marijuana can be good for you. Wrong place to say it I'm sorry. I really hope newbies don't read your post and start rationalising.. sigh
I think if you read Perusan's disclaimer than you take your chances in reading. I also think all reasonable discussion is good discussion. I for one agree with Perusan that MO can be healthy and I look forward to a day when I can once again have a healthy solo sex life. I am married, have 2 kids and only have sex with my wife or my hand. In my initial 30 day reboot there was no sex and that helped a lot, but my wife and I only have sex about 5 times a year so no MO is not really an answer. That being said sex and MO led directly to my recent relapse so I was not ready and didn't have the proper safeguards in place. Something I am working on now. But if you told me that in order to stay on the path I was only going to have 5 Os a year for the rest of my life I think I may say why than give up PMO because I don't want to live in a world where I only O 5 times a year. For me there is going to need to be a middle ground. Finding it will be the challenge.
