Are we weird?

Luther and Calvin spoke of the total depravity of humanity - even the good things people do are done for sinful reasons. This is ...tricky. To say that there is no good outside of actions done in faith?

We have to define "good" at this point. It seems to me that in order to make Calvin or Luther's statement, you have to define good as being something done specifically for the glory of God, this being impossible unless you have faith in God. Hebrews 11:6 seems to support this: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Can something be good and not pleasing to God? How could it be, when it can only be God who defines what is good? What about Matthew 19:16-30, the story of the young rich man who walks away from Jesus when he is told to sell his possessions? Jesus says "there is only One who is good". It seems as if all the commandments the young man had kept were as nothing unless he could do this one good thing out of faith.

I guess my instinct is to disagree with the protestant view as it is expressed here, it seems so narrow. But, what do I know? this is interesting to think about.

 

Historically, culturally, providentially, there was a 'conversation' between the pagans and God [I think C.S. Lewis, a Classics scholar, is strong on this point] - there was a certain development in Gentile thought and practice [Greek/ Roman culture] that almost dove-tailed with the subsequent revelation to the old world via the Church. Christian thought communicated with, and built on, what preceded it. Though the old world collapsed, I find the chronology of it fascinating. Indeed, one wonders if this development may have been required in order for the pagan/ Gentile world to even understand the meaning of the revelation of Christ, without which they could not be converted.... it would have been utterly incomprehensible. This is what is meant by Providential history. I think the development and conversation we see in history reflects other realities such the relations between philosophy, theology and faith, whether in the individual or in the institution such as the Church.

If it is an ontological fact that we are created in the image of God then it should come as no surprise that both individuals and cultures have a strong idea of the Good.

 

So, I think what you're saying is - even gentiles can glorify God, therefore everyone is capable of good. I instinctively like that idea.

 

Reading both Aristotle and Plato is surprising from a Christian perspective because these pre-Christian thinkers are so theistic. And yet perhaps that shouldn't surprise us so much as after all they did help the early Christians understand and communicate the faith... and not only them, but us, who have inherited that communicated faith. Continuity and unity everywhere, and hence catholicity.

 

Thanks for explaining one of the main reasons I wholeheartedly reject Christianity. I think I'll go with the "modern thinkers".

 

Our theology hour

 

Not related to the original post either

 

Well, I think the moderns [post-moderns] kind of agree. What is called concupiscence, in Catholic theology, is similar to what Freud called the Id - there is libido, desire, wired into human nature. It is not evil or guilty per se [the error of some of the Protestants], but can have a propensity toward degradation if not checked by civilizing influences. It's the idea of virtue and vice. I think most of us can recognize this kind of dynamic at work in our own personal lives.