Abortion?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by AverageBear, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. AverageBear

    AverageBear Fapstronaut

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    So Ireland is having a referendum on abortion in May. I have mixed feelings about abortion, so thought I would raise the issue here.

    I find pro-life arguments frustrating. They tend to centre around the completely arbitrary notion that life is created at conception.

    I also find pro-choice arguments frustrating. They tend to overly focus on the mother, who is of course important. But if you accept the premise that the foetus is alive, you are advocating killing a baby to protect the mother's rights. I'm
    Not saying pro-choice choice people are advocating this, just that the focus should more obviously be on when is a baby alive.

    So what do I think? I think a baby is quite obviously alive by the end of a pregnancy. I also think it is quite obviously (to me) not alive at the very beginning of a pregnancy. But there's a grey area in the middle. So, I guess, I am pro-choice at the beginning of a pregnancy. But I would be deeply uncomfortable with any encroachment into that grey area.

    What are your thoughts? NOTE: While I absolutely respect your views, I'm not hugely interested in religious opposition to abortion. As a non-religious person, I would only really expect to be persuaded by secular POVs.
     
  2. Wave Surfer

    Wave Surfer Fapstronaut

    Religion will play a part in many peoples views though. It's more likely abortion will be illegal if a country is religious.

    I don't like abortion but I am pro-choice. Abortion is a complicated issue... People have an abortion for many different reasons.
     
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  3. Sarah W.

    Sarah W. Fapstronaut

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    To me abortion should be her choice especially if there was a rape, mistake or something else and so I support that. But when I think about abortion I always imagined them getting it done like soon after finding out and not months later.

    Do some really wait until just before they're due, and end up deciding to get an abortion? I've never heard of that and to me that's wrong, as they had more than enough time to think it over.
     
  4. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm not going to join this debate, because I honestly feel it's impossible for me to do so without ending up angry. But I would encourage you to look up Ben Shapiros debates on the subject, on YouTube. I feel he makes a lot of really good, solid, non-religious arguments in opposition of abortion, and I've recently had this conversation with someone who was pro-choice and then changed their mind completely after watching his videos.

    You're welcome to talk to me privately if you have any questions about those videos, but I'm not going to join the conversation here.

    Also, Steven Crowder has a great quote that I thought was accurate. He said, "I'm pro-choice, too. I believe in four choices: abstinence, birth control, adoption, and motherhood." I like the way he phrased that, because I think (excluding the rape example), people tend to forget that women already have several choices. To not support abortion isn't to condemn all women to unwanted pregnancies without giving them any options. They have several options already. I think choosing to ignore those other options available to women leads to demonizing the pro-life stance and making it seem like they're trying to strip away women's rights. I'm a woman myself, and I have plenty of rights that can keep me from getting pregnant. I don't need abortion to be one of them. (Again, this is obviously excluding the situation of rape, which is statistically rarely the reason people have abortions.)

    Just throwing that out there for people to remember as the debate continues.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  5. Wave Surfer

    Wave Surfer Fapstronaut

    There was a good debate on Unbelievable? about abortion.
    I should add although it's on a Christian radio station religion doesn't really enter the debate.

    Also, Science VS did a show on the subject. I thought it was pretty good. It explains what takes place during an abortion and really shows how much of a complicated issue it is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  6. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    I don't think the goverment has any right at all to say if abortion should be legal or illegal. I don't like abortion (same with any person, ever).

    I think you should switch the prices to make it more difficult. Make giving a child up for adoption real cheap (like abortion) and make abortions really expensive. More people would decide to go the cheaper route, have the baby, and then give it up.
     
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  7. AverageBear

    AverageBear Fapstronaut

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    Interesting idea. But who enforces that (going back to your Government stay out point)?

    Also, I suspect I'm misunderstanding your point here, but you seem to be going for a market-based approach to enforce a value you believe in. That's not really how the market works (its kind of the opposite). Can you clarify?
     
  8. SomeGymBro

    SomeGymBro Fapstronaut

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    Don't care. I'm celibate. Professionally not my concern.
     
  9. Sarah W.

    Sarah W. Fapstronaut

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    If it's not your concern and you really don't care, then why bother commenting in the first place? He's just asking for opinions on it mate.
     
  10. AverageBear

    AverageBear Fapstronaut

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    It's interesting you are pro-life except in the instance of rape (I swear I'm not going to make a horrible point right now!).

    I actually have misgivings about the use of rape in pro-choice arguments. The reason why being: if you believe a life is being taken, then it feels like 'taking a life' less bad than 'adding to a rape victim's suffering'.

    So, again, I feel compelled to come back to the question of whether or not it's a life. If it isn't then - with total respect to your points around birth control and adoption, etc. I agree those are better, but who are we to judge are decide I suppose.

    Sorry, I just noticed you said you weren't engaging further here. I've written all this out now, so I'll post it, but I respect that.
     
  11. AverageBear

    AverageBear Fapstronaut

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    Did I imply there are people who wait until the end of pregnancy to abort? I didn't mean to, so if I do, sorry. I doubt that happens.

    I was more thinking about the grey area when you might argue life exists. Ireland talks a lot about 12 weeks as a potential cut off. I suspect that a foetus is pretty undeveloped.at that point but I don't know. As I seen to support abortion to some degree, should I be happy with that), or do I prefer 6 or 8 weeks? I don't know. I'm confident enough that I don't like 20, 25 or 30 weeks
     
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  12. SomeGymBro

    SomeGymBro Fapstronaut

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    That is my opinon. My opinion is that I don't have an opinion. I prefer to step aside and let women make their own moral choices. Every woman who gets an abortion deals with it her way. If they want or need to add that to their plate, I wont stop them.
     
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  13. Sarah W.

    Sarah W. Fapstronaut

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    But mate that would of been a perfect response, I don't care is really vague though. I wasn't sure what you meant.

    Ah okay, sorry I read that wrong. Hmm, not saying they have to decide like right away, but honestly 12 weeks is waaay more than enough time to decide what should be done right? That's just my opinion anyways, I haven't had to go through it so I don't know.
     
  14. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    No no, I didn't say that. I'm pro-life in all cases. I just said that the argument I presented doesn't apply in the case of rape. It's a different conversation. I am still against abortion, because I don't believe in killing a child because of the sins of his/her father, but I obviously have much more compassion for that situation, and to say that the woman had plenty of other choices doesn't apply in that situation, because she didn't get a choice. It's not as simple.

    I want to be very clear on that... sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I don't excuse abortion in the case of rape, I just understand it more and have more compassion for that situation.

    Sure. If I believed it wasn't a life, then I wouldn't have any issues with abortion at all. Why would I? Why would anyone? That's one of the arguments that Ben Shapiro has. If someone says they don't believe a baby is a viable life in the womb, then they shouldn't have any qualms at all about abortion in any case, at any time.

    I feel that with how many people, scientists and medical professionals included, can't agree upon when a life becomes a life -- whether it's at conception, when the heartbeat starts, when brain function begins, when it can feel pain, etc -- I would rather err on the side of not killing it, if we can't be 100% sure the "it" we are killing isn't a human life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  15. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    That absolutely, definitely happens. Unfortunately. Not just that, but people often wait until late enough in their pregnancy that, if the child were to be born, it would be perfectly fine to survive on its own. Babies are born premature all the time, past the point where people often get abortions, and survive just fine. So at the very least, in later term abortions like that, it really can't be argued that it isn't a human life yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  16. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    See, that's the kind of uncertainty that I'm very uncomfortable with, when talking about potentially killing an innocent child. Who gets to decide when it's okay and when it isn't when we all disagree? Some people are perfectly fine with abortions at 20 weeks, or even later, but you aren't. So how can we, as a society, make something so potentially awful a law when it's such a grey area? It seems kind of insane to me.

    I know I said I wasn't going to engage, but people have been pretty respectful so far, so I will give it a shot and walk away if things get too heated.

    I'm curious where you draw the line in that. Do you think women should be allowed to murder their toddlers if they don't feel they can support them, because they should be free to make their own moral choices? Where do you draw the line? Surely we, as a society, should be allowed to remove people's freedom if their freedom involves harming another human being. That's why things like murder and rape and theft and abuse are illegal. None of us have the complete freedom to make our own moral choices with no consequences from the law.
     
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  17. SomeGymBro

    SomeGymBro Fapstronaut

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    I don't want to be drawn into a moral debate because obviously you are well versed, and it's a minefield of a subject. I don't choose or write laws, I just follow them. I trust that the laws represent the consent and opinions of the majority, and abide by the will of the majority.
     
  18. Rick C-137

    Rick C-137 Fapstronaut

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    I have a similar viewpoint. Both sides can be very frustrating, and I don't want to be lumped in with either of them.

    To a certain degree I'm okay with someone getting one, but IMO 6 weeks should be the cutoff. At that point the baby has a brain and heartbeat.

    I also think that people need to understand they're taking away the potential of life. If they hadn't gotten one there would be a kid, assuming there weren't any complications.

    That's my opinion. I'm not here to debate. If anyone has questions I'll answer them, but other than that I have nothing else to say.
     
  19. Sarah W.

    Sarah W. Fapstronaut

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    Even 6 weeks to me is plenty of time in my opinion, they should be able to make a choice by then.
     
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  20. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    idk, i think its absolutely crazy that the gov has any say in this issue, same with gay marriage.

    This price change would be over a transitional change throughout time. I don't really believe in anything, i'm pro choice bc I cant stand here and tell a woman what she can or cannot do.

    I'm not sure if life starts at the moment of conception, it might. Also, the catholic church is against abortion. Regardless, church & state is seperate and decades and decades over years have shown this to be the best thing.

    This might be random/poorly written, im sleep deprived and not thinking clearly. so i do what i can.
     
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