SOs, what are you most angry about?

Does your wife struggle with change? Mine does, she can't ever make a decision. I've felt similarly as you in this, I do see that I've been unfair expecting her to either fix it all, or split up. She won't say it but if she was fully honest. If I asked her how to fix this. I think she'd say I wish we could just stay together and have had you never be addicted to P.

Being a male who likes to fix things, I struggle with that, because I can't change this. It's definitely hard.

Yes, and in the end that's really the only option we have.

My wife has trauma from before me too, sometimes it does come out and I have felt it isn't necessarily right, it's feels like I get the brunt of all of what I did, plus everyone else too.

I've struggled to pull back my feelings there and let her have hers. I'm trying to do a better job of understanding how she feels. Rather than tell her, she's wrong for always taking it out on me.

IDK, I guess it's a work in progress.

 

You and I have spoken about this already, but I wanted to respond here. The problem is that often, if the traumas have something in common, it is very easy for them to heighten each other if they have some of the same triggers. If you get triggered on one, sometimes the other one comes with it. A fun two for one on the pain. The other problem that can happen, or at least it does for me, is that my husband was fully aware of the traumas before he hurt me. He was aware that my first trauma involved someone hurting me profoundly and then acting like she had no idea why and would never know why. He was aware that my family of origin has for years hurt me by lying to me and hiding things, then treating me horribly over things I didn't know. He saw all the pain, held me while I cried, the whole nine yards. What did he go and do? Betray me. Lies, hiding, treating me horribly and blaming all our problems on me when it was because of the things he was doing that I didn't know about. When I ask him why, how did this all even start in the very beginning? Crickets. He says he has no clue. So the problem is that he has gone and wounded me in the spots that were already bleeding wounds. Except this time it was the person who had held me and been my comfort, who knew how deeply wounded I was, just up and kicked me in the most sensitive places. Unfortunately the traumas are now tied. So when I bring it up again, how did this happen? Yes, he gets the emotion that he caused amplified with the prior trauma. Cause now I'm not just mad that she hurt me and that he hurt me, but I'm also mad that he knew I was hurt like that and he went and did the same thing. Or unfortunately when my family lies to me, I experience a trigger of all lies and relive his. It sucks. But profound trauma caused by your now primary attachment figure (which is what our spouses become when we marry them), is so deep and so reverberating that unless those prior traumas were resolved, it's probably going to cause them to resurface and feel like a fresh wound with the right triggers.

I know that all seems horribly unfair. No you guys did not cause those prior traumas. We know that. But there is pain that comes from being wounded by our beloved in areas that they already knew we were hurting. And that's on top of the hard enough betrayal pain. We expected you to be more than on our side, and instead you kicked us in some of the places we were already down.

How you choose to respond can help. Can you help bring resolution to the parts you caused? Can you continue to show remorse and let us know that you understand the hurt? Can you show compassion and empathy when more than one trauma is triggered? Can you even just realize that you played a part in deepening existing trauma even if you didn't mean to?

For those of us choosing to stay, it is very confusing at times. The person from whom we most need comfort is also the person who has wounded us. The person we are angry at is also the person we need by our side to work through trauma. It's gonna get a little messy at times.

 

Fair enough, I suppose you're right.

 

I agree with what Psalm 27 said.
It's interesting reading the different thoughts and opinions of others. Some I agree with and others I don't. Many help me understand a different point of view.
As I work through my situation, or when it changes that can impact my interpretation of other people's words.
I try to stay open and curious, try to make sense of what's going on around me.
I don't see many things as 'right' or 'wrong'. There aren't winners and losers here, just ideas, thoughts and beliefs being shared.

 

I appreciate you saying this, this makes things complicated as everyone's experiences are very much different. I'm really sorry about the situation you are currently in. But, I think your way of commenting shows your high level of character. I think only good things can happen for you with that quality.

 

I've thought a lot about our conversations, and really appreciate your input always, and I of course admit I'm not done thinking and changing my frame of mind around a lot of things. Much of what you said is absolute truth and I definitely see that. One part that really sticks out is the primary attachment figure and the betrayal aspect. This makes so much sense to me when it's referenced with 'prior' betrayal. I also knew a lot of my wife's traumas. (Not all) before we were married. Actually, my wife has said there was a time where she was praying for God to bring a man into her life like me. Who didn't judge her or her past, as she went through some pretty tough things. There were things I noticed about my wife early on that I think I understood about her in ways no one else had before, which drew us close. But, then I blew a bunch of that up by not fully being who she thought or needed me to be. Actually, I believe I still am that person she thought I was in most ways. But the fact that it affects the security of the relationship is impossible to deny.

I shared this with you already, but again this podcast "Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage" is really great. The episode about spiritual warfare is really good. EDIT: I do want to express that this podcast is faith based so for anyone who isn't I wanted to mention this. My intent isn't to push religion on anyone. https://podcasts.focusonthefamily.c...alled-marriage/spiritual-warfare-in-marriage/ Here's the link for anyone interested. I see how my natural reaction to many things my wife "does" I start telling myself "Hah! there it is this is why you don't love me" looking for validation to be resentful. Constantly looking for a confirmation for the feelings I have in that instant. I think we all do this, my wife definitely does. This is the "spiritual warfare" they talk about. Then, add P addiction in the mix and you have added complexity to what the podcast doesn't talk about directly. It adds a HUGE amount of shame and resentment to the relationship.

What I'm realizing is how wrong it is for me to expect my wife to not bring her emotional "baggage into the relationship". And it's wrong to take offense to a level of misplaced outrage in the case you have described not only because it does absolutely get connected. But, also because I have "baggage" as well that I am bringing that I need to have a level of expectations for her to understand. (I forget the episode but this is a topic talked about in the podcast series I referenced here). I want to be very clear, I am not talking about the PMO baggage or the effects PMO has on other things.

Without going into a deep long list about all a P user struggles with, (since this site is filled with it) I'm making an assumption here with this next part that the P user is not in denial anymore, and taking steps towards recovery, where the P use is known with full disclosure. A really difficult part of moving forward is the P user is still going to be dealing with, shame, resentment, rejection, stress, anxiety, etc. For years if not life, regardless of how deep into recovery they are this isn't because of P, it's because its real life challenges. Often, it seems there is a disconnect due to the betrayal perhaps, and it creates separation between the couple. This is a tall ask, and it's not all just on the SO, there's a huge amount of action needed by the addicted partner. But, the same understanding required of myself is just as vital for my wife to understand me to have a successful marriage. You answered this for me months ago, but it comes down to a safe place where open communication of feelings is possible. As I go through this process I totally see how my addiction affects my behavior. Yet, so very much of what I feel is an actual real reasonable feeling. That often gets completely dismissed by my wife, maybe part because of BT, but also due to other factors. Personally, I don't think my wife shows she cares much about my baggage. She'd rather I keep it to myself, and that is hurtful, at times it seems I'm not worthy of having feelings, especially because of what I have done with PMO and lying.

This brings it all full circle for me, as I see the need for better communication and understanding each other to be key. Things like expressing my desire for more physical intimacy, typically get completely shut down, or get disapproved of in "how" I do something. Sure, I guess I can be to blame forever, honestly I already have been, yet that is terribly unfair the way I see it. Until we are able to work past some of that, I will feel rejected and deal with the feelings I always have from those rejections, regardless of how far into recovery I am. That fills my mind with questions of what this is going to look like 10, 20, 30 years from now. I see my in-laws and the resentment they have for each other, I don't want that. This doesn't discourage me from recovering, it just makes me wonder if things will ever change. My hope is continued change and counseling can increase our ability to come together on this stuff.

I'm not trying to start a contentious debate over this, saying that an SO needs to cheerlead, or saying that the Betrayal isn't real. I'm much more just expressing some things to facilitate more thought, and dialogue on a pertinent issue in rebooting while in a relationship.

 

Warfman (sorry, I don't know how to tag), reading through all of your stuff and some of the posts of others here, I'm gonna say that it sounds like you all are expecting way too much way too quick.

Y'all cheated on your spouses for how long? And then how much time were they allowed before they were expected to sleep with you, understand you, decide to commit to relationship with you, validate you, etc.

Many of you put your spouses in really trapped life situations (did you have a kid, did she decrease her employment in order to be a more active child caregiver, stayed married and lying for years and got financially and organizationally entangled). Part of the consequence of that might just be that you're doomed to have a life as miserable as you made hers by putting her there. That maybe you don't get to demand to have your sexual needs met, when hers (exclusivity, devotion, intimacy) were ignored or never met and will never be met because you already permanently ruined her ability to feel close to you or to feel that from you.

Maybe a consequence of deciding to betray her is that you don't ever get the full "her" back, even though there are no viable options for her to leave.
I don't know. I regularly read posts here and wonder why someone who cheated on their partners feels so entitled to ever go back to normal when their spouses absolutely will never be able to feel normal again. It has a feeling like y'all expect the real consequences to just go away one day. Like, what y'all did is a huge deal. Absolutely relationship ending, even when sometimes a new relationship is built over time. Like, yeah, I would say you should expect to be blamed forever. She will not feel normal forever, why should you escape the same consequence?

Just wanted to share my thoughts. It's probably a weird trigger for me to see men complaining about lack of understanding or complaining their partner won't sleep with them. Idk, just... Feels wild for you to say you don't want the resentment relationship your inlaws have when you actively worked toward that and are now blaming her for not doing enough to work away from it. And you're not the only one I see expressing these sentiments, I think you're just the most active poster.

 

I understand what your saying, and don't expect you to fully understand my love story as it's not all here and this isn't about me in this thread. I think you are expressing the disconnect from the betrayal I was refferring to. Most addicts aren't willing to say that it's completely fair and reasonable for you to feel that way. But I am. I don't blame you. I also don't think that for this reason or any other my feelings should be disregarded as they have by my wife it's actually quite unfair to be blamed for things I've been blamed for. But I'm sure every relationship is different. I probably used a bad example of my desire for physical intimacy to change. There are "smaller" more pertinent ones that I desire that I should probably have used.

There's a lot of unknown expectations on time frame behind what I'm trying to express. I'm not trying to set a deadline or say I want it all forgotten instantly. But, I do expect change. I tried saying this without pressing too many buttons because I understand many SOs partners aren't even willing to admit they have a problem and this would be very contentious, and could be very triggering. I'm definitely not expecting things to change just like that, even though they may be starting to in some ways(my wife finally apologized after some very unfair things she'd done to me that I had been blamed for.). It took 7 years and many hard conversations to get to this point. Up until this recent conversation, I was blamed for things that just weren't right. Remarkably, you could say this process started 9 months ago for me and it is already showing it does work in bringing us closer together. And I'm content with that in some ways.

There are things in my story that I tolerated that maybe I shouldn't have. I ask myself a lot would I have if I wasn't using P to cope with it as I knew a lot of this going into the marriage? Maybe, it's a hard question to answer, honestly I don't think I should have tolerated some of it. I guess it's part of the internal struggle that I beleive is worth talking about.

I want to reiterate that I'm not saying I expect anyone to just forgive and forget. And I'm fully aware that this isn't something that can be forgotten fully. Yet, the feelings of both people deserve to be understood.

I do appreciate your way of expressing your feelings. And I'm also sorry for any hurt you are experiencing.

 

I'm definitely not blaming her for resenting me for PMO. Yet, I'm resented for many things that actually most would agree was not my fault at all. It's hard to express, ultimately it takes one person to change this spiral if resentment, and then takes two to heal the marriage. A huge part of that is understanding each other.

 

Warfman, just read through what you said and I think the fact that you were able to move forward in your recovery in spite of your marital situation is something to be proud of. I would struggle a lot more if I felt emotionally neglected by my wife. Maybe the physical rejection is a consequence of the scars generated by the addiction and those scars go deep down. Though the emotional rejection is a hard one for me to understand. Maybe as you say she is using your addiction as a catalyst for all the other the negatives aspects that she disliked about the relationship but like you told me once, there is only so much we can do, maybe you would have that regardless of the addiction. Will never know but it's something that just needs to be worked on both sides.

Also crushed and leaving, I just want to say that both parties always have a choice. SOs also have a choice. I don't know the situation of each person here is, but what you describe above as trapped life situations is what happens on any marriage (with the exception of the lying and addiction). When people gets married they get entangled its the nature of the agreement. Thousands of people divorce every week and they have children, made economical sacrifices etc. Both parties do those sacrifices. If the marriage is in favor of one of the two parties then I there may be other underlying problems. If one believes and is convinced that what the other did is a relationship breaker and there is no turning back then they are entlited to leave. That perhaps means starting from zero but that's the name of the game for any marriage. I don't mean to gain the SOs anymosity here but again both parties have options. And I don't disagree with everything you said, but for example you brought up warfman example of his inlaws. He did a lot to hurt to his relationship but he also did a lot to fix himself and work towards helping his relationship. I don't think anyone should be doomed to have a life time of bad marriage, there is a lot that can be done to have a good happy marriage even after all the pain just as there is a lot that can be done to hurt the relationship. In the end I think seeking happyness should be the end goal and if partners chose to believe on life after addiction that's acceptable and if they chose to leave that's also acceptable.

 

Thanks, you saying that means more than I can even say. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. But feels great, and gives me a level of peace I didn't have before.

 

@CrushedandLeaving makes a good point about the physical intimacy being caused by other things from the relationship. I came to that realization during this process for me. The lack of physical intimacy I think definitely is a symptom of the problem more than the problem itself. It seems very common that the p users think that's the whole problem and that's where a lot of the gaslighting and blame comes.

Though at the same time there are real feelings of rejection physically and emotionally that I've experienced, that I don't think is fair to say was due to anything I did. Those feelings I've had to fight for in a way. Because if I allow them to be repressed and disregarded, it fuels my addiction.

 

Both parties definitely have a choice, but when one party operates for years from a place of knowing and allows the partner in the dark to make decisions that entangle them further, that's incredibly abusive and narcissistic. We are talking about knowingly putting your partner in a relational and economical position that favors them being less able to leave if they would like to once they find out. That's way way more than just a random hurt or irreconcilable differences leading to a divorce genuinely contributed to by both people.

My ex husband and I did not combine bank accounts for several years. He allowed me to move all of my funds into a new shared account, sign a mortgage, etc, all while regularly participating in something he knew would be the end of the relationship for me. Many men agree to pregnancies, encourage her to stay home with the kids. Yes, that happens in any marriage. But it's not in every marriage that the man knows he's already doing something to end the relationship. Infidelity, especially regular, habitual infidelity, is unique and insidious that way.

 

How much of your baggage was known before your addiction started? How much did you share your feelings before the addiction started? I ask because my husband, when we met, had very little baggage to speak of. Other than admitting that he had a racist grandfather, everything was peachy keen. He was fine. Great. Happy. Wonderful. I know now, there's a lot of things he never spoke about. A few things slipped out here and there, but he was always fine. But he was really good at packing up bad things and shipping those bags to storage. Out of sight, out of mind. I suspect that this tactic helped contribute to him developing a problem (again I don't know for sure because he refuses to remember what happened) because he is so much more emotional now. Like to the point that I can't believe he feels as much as he does it is so different. I will admit it is a little hard at times because I am not used to it. And, I'll be honest, sometimes I get a little pissed off because if he had just leaned on me early on, shared the hard things early on, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. I often feel very unequipped to deal with what he's feeling because I'm still not used to it and don't know what he needs. And I, much to my dismay, find myself getting a little impatient if the house is in chaos (lots of kids here) and he's having big feelings. Sometimes I feel bitter that I'm having to help him emotionally when I feel like I can barely pull myself together because of what he did. So then I go in a little bit of a mean place until I remind myself that he needs help not only learning how to deal with strong emotions but also how to not stuff them down or hide them. I am acutely aware that he will not have long term success if he doesn't learn how sit with and deal with feelings. If he can't reach out and process then he'll go back to hiding. So it's hard and I'm trying. But it is definitely an adjustment and I will fully admit I struggle. I wonder if it would help her to know that you need her to be aware of what you are feeling because putting your feelings out there for her to be aware of and participate in could help you towards really making the changes you need to achieve lasting recovery.

 

I think all men generally have a desire to be known and understood emotionally.

I remember you telling me this about your husband before, and I have thought about it. There are things based on what you've said that I definitely relate to him, and others I don't think I do. For one, I have always been one who wore his heart on his sleeve. That doesn't mean I'm always good at expressing how I feel, but I don't repress it unless I get burned for the most part. So this is a little different for me maybe, as I can't think of many issues I didn't openly address in terms of my baggage. There also though was future baggage neither of us could have predicted, (I didn't know I'd have a heart attack months before our wedding and go into a depression for years for example). It wasn't my fault fully, but it's a huge part of where we are today.

I guess from dialogue here and other threads, I think it's important to remind myself that I married the person, not just the good stuff. As a catholic now, I do believe I have a duty to help my wife lead a Christian life and help her get to heaven. A large part of that for me I'm realizing is I can't hold this stuff against her anymore, whether it is disclosed or not. To SOs thinking I'm saying that means you married an addicted liar and need to accept that, I am not saying that. I don't think though it's right to put blame of all issues onto a P addiction, and assume that with the absence of it there would be no problems.

For your husband, others, and myself, I think a lot of misplaced blame gets put on P as being the sole reason for the big difference in emotions once starting to recover. This is of course true in many ways, but there are lots of things that I believe many men struggle with. For instance, being called a "p**sy" or a "wimp" in the playground as kids, being told to "Man Up" or "Be a man" in times of struggle. That being a "Nice Guy" is the ultimate goal and anything other is shameful. I remember guys who had girlfriends would get mocked in locker rooms for being "whipped". I remember being "emotional" with women I dated, they dumped me like a hot potato. I think this is a huge struggle for young men, as many of us are told our sexual interests are inherently bad. I'm not saying I'm an expert and probably am missing a lot of points here but I hope you get what I'm saying. Much of this is the kind of stuff your husband probably never felt he was able to express, and now that he feels he can, he wants to. Because he has a deep desire for you to understand him, it might be a guy thing, but we aren't very natural at expressing some of it either. If your husband feels that way even if he doesn't admit it completely, I have felt the same way. Maybe in some ways he still doesn't feel fully able to express it? If you feel that these emotional moments are almost like "outbursts" I could potentially see that as the case. As I sometimes have had those, typically when I am feeling neglected, rejected, or not understood.

I also struggled big time with Toxic Shame, and do feel it creep up every now and then, two books come to mind that I've been working through recently ("No More Mr. Nice Guy", by Robert Glover and "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge") I've gone through the audiobooks of these, and both refer the "Nice guy" and how that is the epitome of what is good about men. I found that actually was not true for me. I actually got resentful and bitter, because I thought that being "Nice" or a "Good Guy" is what people wanted. Not that I don't want to be nice or good, but that being nice often made me feel bulldozed by others. Or it might mean not going out to do things I like, like going to a game with friends, or taking a weekend hunting trip. Some of the stuff in these books I resonate in ways that I really struggle to put into words myself.

With P added into the equation, I totally get the frustration you are expressing, I don't know what to really say to do other than look at the glass half full maybe? That your husband has really changed. It seems you are in a very small group of SOs who have a husband with multiple years of recovery. And in a lot of ways, you both have the potential of being much closer than you ever were before. You've established firm reasonable boundaries and are working to take care of yourself through this process. I do think holding things against him (like this baggage topic we are discussing) hurts thing. As his feelings obviously need to matter to you and I know that they do based on how you express things. I'm not saying I know everything or that I have the solution, just speaking honestly from the other side of the betrayal, for the marriage to improve we need our feelings to matter too.

I think My wife and I just scratched the surface of this and I hope to follow in your footsteps. Actually yesterday, I said something to her that was quite crude. I meant it in a good way, but it didn't come out that way and she reacted very poorly too it. Though this did indicate to myself that I am changing. As in the past I probably would have just ended the conversation and put up walls. Eventually acting out to stop dwelling on it. But, this time I listened to her responses, took some time to process them, and reiterated what I truly meant, it ended very positively as she texted me later that day saying that she appreciated all I was doing. It was a sincere affirmation of my progress and felt good.

 

I am now a few years free of my marriage to an SA, but sometimes still check this site and usually find something thought-provoking here. This time, I found myself drawn to this post. I wondered if I was still carrying anger, and if so, at what? I found that I still harbored plenty of anger about one thing that is on the list and one that isn’t.

I am still very angry that he chose to lie about his activities and attitudes. Lying isn’t simply a defensive maneuver – it is an offensive one. One lies to gain an advantage – to prevent someone else from having information they need in order to protect their own interests, or the interests of others (children, etc). He prevented me from having information I needed to make vital decisions about my life. He lied about things he KNEW were wrong and would be deal-breakers for me. But this wasn’t actually the worst part. He lied and obfuscated in ways that harmed me. He made me doubt myself, shamed me for doubting him, gave me false hope, accused me of “not loving him enough”, etc. And here’s a big one – once his behaviors came to light, he re-directed every conversation I tried to have about his behavior and made it into a conversation about my response to his behavior. He only ever wanted to critique my response, tell me how my response hurt him, and give instruction on the way I needed to respond in order to not hurt him. Then he held these things over my head, telling me that if I “shamed him” (ie, told him that what he was doing was unhealthy and wrong), or “didn’t trust him” (ie, demanded accountability), or "made him feel guilty" (ie, pointed out how his behavior was hurting me and others) it might just drive him to act out. If I refused to get drawn into this and insisted we get back to the real subject, he would shut down completely. And by the way, these are patterns I see all over these boards.

The other thing I am still very angry about doesn’t appear on the list and extends beyond my own relationship. I am angry that he and so many others respond sexually (sometimes can ONLY respond sexually) to watching other humans being used, degraded, hurt, objectified, dehumanized, etc., knowing (if they stop to think about it at all) that the vast majority of the participants are either children; teenagers; very young adults driven by mental health issues, cultural pressures, or cynically responding to the demand for titillating material; trafficked humans; or people facing economic or mental health hardships, etc. My ex-husband did not invent this phenomenon. Men deriving sexual pleasure from the use, abuse, and exploitation of those weaker than themselves has always been with us and is heavily endorsed by our culture. But my husband overcame his entitled blindness and used his formidable intellect and moral compass to understand that all kinds of other things in the world were wrong, then abstained from them, and even worked to eradicate them. Why not this thing? He not only refused to critically examine his “tastes” and behaviors in this one, very specific area -he actually cultivated and reinforced those tastes for decades. And if at any point he had wanted to engage empathy, stimulate disgust, or clear up any confusion about whether what he was doing was morally wrong, all he had to do was the following: Imagine his own precious daughter as the “tiny teen” in “Tiny Teen Destroyed By BBC!” (Let’s not even get into the vile racism that is rampant in porn and that nobody seems to care about.) I am angry that he did not do this simple, common sense exercise. I am angry that we, collectively, will not do this. And I am angry at everyone who did do this and still did not stop.

 

“I sold you a house without disclosing it was built over 6 feet of buried plutonium. You now have cancer and all of your money is tied up in the property. This risk is an inescapable feature of home ownership and if you don’t like it, you can move any time.”

 

Exactly - And also legally actionable in most other areas of life.

 

Amen to this. He crafted my betrayal trauma with every lie. Every time he lied to let me believe he was some kind of saint of a man, he was just preparing my annihilation. His lies and the emotional manipulation even caused me to doubt my orientation because I couldn't figure out why I wasn't attracted to him anymore. He was treating me like crap, but he was perfect, right? Others even told me to cut him slack because he was working so hard. It's infuriating thinking about how he couldn't see that his lies were destroying me, instead it was my fault.

And yet they're told is totally healthy. Or that these are "working" women that they are supporting. Ugh! I'm so disgusted with society.

 

Thank you @Susannah for articulating this so clearly.
I completely agree with the anger about this whole area of p. My question to any users of p, past or present, is how do you 'justify' it? It's a question my partner has not been able to shed any light on. What kind of thoughts go through your head when reading what Susannah has written about "watching other humans being used, degraded, hurt, objectified, dehumanized, etc."? How do you relate to these words?