My wife and I are separated...our marriage has been effectively separated since June 1, 2017 (our Final DDay) -- we have been physically separated since November 3, 2018. My wife is hurt .. I have SERIOUSLY hurt her .. over the course of our 22.5 year marriage; over the course of this intense recovery journey. She is suffering from untold amounts of Betryal Trauma...all which I caused / I am responsible for. Since June 2017, my wife has put up a stone wall between us ... I have been unable to break through and connect ... worse, I have contributed to strengthening that wall between us by some of my bad actions, my bad choices. The question of this thread: how DO I best handle this stone wall of rejection and separation? Right now, I feel like shutting down ... I don't know how to hold on to hope for my marriage in the face of constant and continual rejection. Yet, I don't want to give up hope. Do I look for ways to detach my emotions? Do I learn how to suffer through the rejection? Do I do the next right thing in showing love towards my wife and damn the rejection..let it roll off my back like it doesn't hurt me? I hurt my wife SSSOOO much .. I really don't blame her for rejecting me.
I know she doesn't want to be pushed or put on the spot, but maybe she needs that a little bit. What would happen if you are honest with her but push her a little at the same time? Tell her you love her, you want to show her you love her, but you are feeling rejected and want to respect her boundaries but are really sure what they are anymore. Ask her where she is at and if she would be willing to discuss it further at a later time and set the time. Be bold and say it in person, not in writing. It just seems time to give things a little push. I say this because my husband pushed me when I DID NOT want to be pushed. I did not want him around me. I fought him. Had he allowed me the space I tried to force between us, we would be farther apart than ever. He pissed me off. I wanted to hang on to my hurt but he fought for me. He still is. He didnt give up. I softened and didn't make him. Push it. Ask her. At this point, she'll let you know.
I feel for you dude, I have a similar story to yours. My wife and I lived together for the first 8 months of my recovery and then I moved out and back in a couple times over the next year. After doing disclosure I moved back in and have been home since. It has been a messy rollercoaster and I don't have it figured out yet, but honesty changed everything for me. I asked my wife how she would respond to this post and she said to keep trying with her. She may not be able to handle the flood of anger, grief, shame, fear, hope, joy mixture of emotions that she gets when you are around, or when you do things for her. As for your feelings of rejection. This is from me. She cannot help you through any emotions right now. Someday she may be able to hear your feelings without being triggered, but right now you need to work on you. The best way to win her back is to work really hard on yourself. Who do you want to be? If this relationship doesn't work with your wife, who would you choose to be for you? Very rarely in life do you have such a clear choice with so much at stake. Do not detach from your emotions. That is what you have been doing your entire addiction. You need to learn how to walk through your emotions. And slowly over time it is possible to add lego blocks back on to the trust structure of your relationship. I have so much to say to this situation. Feel free to pm me. I'm hoping for you my friend. The only way through this is to face your emotions. No easy task for us. I certainly do not have it all firgured out and I have made so many mistakes in recovery that I wish I could take back, but I keep getting back up because I will never choose to live the lonely life of secrecy that I was choosing in addiction. Hang in there brother.
As a woman I have learned something about men. This took me years to understand because it is SO different from how I, as a woman operate. When a man withdraws and needs space I have learned that it is best to give him the space he needs and allow him to come back to me. It shows him that I trust him and respect him and he always comes back happy. Why was this so hard for me to understand? Because as a woman I am the opposite....if I push my man away and he gives me space I start to believe that he doesn’t care and I begin to get more angry at him. If he fights for me and comes closer I soften up and feel loved, cherished and respected. It isn’t about playing games it’s all subconscious. It’s great that you admit to being aware of her hurt caused by your addiction.... but it doesn’t mean that just because you have done the work to finally empathize with her that she will be ready. You said that since June of 2017 she’s put up a wall and you can’t break through. My suggestion would be to Tell her that because of that wall you finally understand the pain you put her through. You realize that you also put up a wall for 22 years she couldn’t get through when you chose p over her. Your lies put up that wall and you’re so thankful she stayed by your side trying to hammer through. She’s a remarkable woman for spending 22 years trying to break a wall (you’ve been trying for a year and a half and I’m sure it hasn’t been easy) One other thing about women... we generally give chance after chance and are our mans cheerleader silently rooting for him to win. Once we have been let down to our breaking point we generally don’t come back. When a woman is checked out emotionally and physically from an ex we almost NEVER go back because we remember all the lies, the pain, the hurt and anger and wake up and stop cheering. I don’t know if she is at this point or not but it is a possibility. Just keep in mind that pain you’re feeling about being rejected... that is something she has been forced to feel for 22 years because of an addicted spouse she didn’t sign up for. If she softens towards you and eventually opens up her heart again you better try your damn hardest to never betray that woman again... and if you slip up be 100% honest right away. All the best
Wonderfully put, thank you. You said this: "we generally give chance after chance and are our mans cheerleader silently rooting for him to win." I totally agree and understand this (to some degree)...but as a man walking through this for 20 months now: the silently rooting is brutal...I mean, really brutal. Walking through recovery, alone .. with no support from my wife, never once has she asked me how I was doing, never once has she encouraged me. The only positive thing I have going for me regarding our relationship is she has not filed for divorce. Now, I UNDERSTAND this is how it has to be...I am emotionally unsafe to my wife. And yes, your multiple reminders to me that my wife suffered through an emotionally-absent husband for 20 years ... I can suffer through it for 2 or 3 years, while I work on myself and my wife works on herself and her healing --- those were good reminders. (Thank you) .. You mentioned checking out emotionally -- my wife has told me that she emotionally detached from me 100% in August 2016...that was two DDay's ago...she gave me the ultimatum, "Fix your porn problem or I am leaving you." When she saw that I did NOT reach out for help, did NOT talk to anyone else but rather white-knuckled it and "fixed" the problem myself (I stayed sober from porn for 3 months!) -- it didn't matter...when my wife saw my lack of pursuing real recovery in August 2016, she checked out emotionally 100% from the marriage. (The sad thing is .. I didn't even notice -- that is how in the fog I was.) Anyway, that is more about my wife's perspective.
I am not trying to defend her or to make you feel worse but I just want to help you understand what this has been like from a woman’s perspective. Walking through recovery with no support from your wife is hard and you’d like to have her ask how you’re doing and to encourage you. I don’t think she is being silent to hurt you. I believe it is because she is sacred. A very difficult part for women when it comes to their SO addiction is that we have nobody to talk to. Usually when we’re upset or need relationship help we turn to our female friends for that support. When it comes to this addiction we can’t turn to anybody. We don’t want our friends to know because it makes us feel as if we have failed as a wife. So we don’t get that chance to heal through talking. That’s how the wall starts to build. You said that she told you to get over your addiction or she’s leaving. She let you know she’s had enough. In the past you tried to fix this by yourself. By white knuckling it. As you know, this didn’t work. You want her to ask how you’re doing, but maybe she doesn’t want to ask because she is scared. Afraid to find out you’re not “cured” afraid that asking you comes across as if she doesn’t trust you. Afraid to bring back some of the sadness and anger she’s tried to suppress. Perhaps you could change this by opening up to her and taking that fear away from her? Open up and let her know everything you have been doing to better yourself. Let her know that you want to talk to her about all of it.
Everything you said is spot on about how my wife feels .. Yes, she is scared; her distance and the walls she has out up since June 1, 2017 have been to protect herself .. I was / I am emotionally unsafe for her. .. This last part: "Perhaps you could change this by opening up to her and taking that fear away from her? Open up and let her know everything you have been doing to better yourself. Let her know that you want to talk to her about all of it." That does not apply to my wife .. My wife asked me to move out mid-August 2018 (we didn't pull the trigger on that until Nov 3, 2018) .... We are not talking about deep, connected things. I DESPERATELY want to! I tried and tried and tried to have deep conversations from Feb - Aug 2018. My wife wasn't ready for any of that...and I pushed for it -- and it was part of led to me being asked to move out. The example I think of the most was "The 4 Hour dinner" ... You can read my journal entry here: https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/realizing-the-new-me.171589/page-24#post-1606973 August 8, 2018 .. my wife invited me to go out for dinner (which was a BIG deal...because we had an established boundary where I wasn't allowed to ask my wife out to dinner or for coffee..because my wife didn't want me initiating deep conversations). We had a FOUR HOUR dinner! We talked the whole time..deep conversations...we talked about very difficult things...tears on both sides. It was hard..it was painful at times. But, we got through it; although it was painful, I felt it was a positive thing..a move in the right direction. (read the link above for how I felt at the time) Well...a handful of days later -- my wife and I were talking on the couch...it was another deep conversation, that was going in a bad direction. I brought up the "recent 4 hour dinner" that we had -- how I saw that as a milestone / a stepping stone that we were headed in the right direction. My wife looked at me .. and told me that that dinner was the worst night in her life. It was SSSOOO difficult and painful for her -- that one dinner put her into a deep depression for 2 straight days! She did NOT look at it like I saw it. (even though her closing words to me at the end of the evening were the exact opposite of that?!?) Anyway..my point is: my wife does NOT want me to open up to her..my wife doesn't want me to talk to her, certainly not about my recovery or how I'm doing or anything. We only see / communicate about the kids, logistics, etc. I was telling someone recently that I think on average .. my wife and I talk deeply, meaningfully about "us" -- about 1 - 2 hours per month..over the last 20 months. Like I said, I was pushing hard / pursuing my wife and quality time together..talks about us, connected talks about how we are doing --- I did that a lot from Feb 2018 and on (after I moved back from Europe..I was out there by myself for 3 months)....but my wife wasn't ready then -- and she is even less ready now with my recent failures and hurting her. So, no. There can be none of me opening up / talking to my wife --- she won't have any of that. All I can do is focus on my own recovery; be available to help out with her and the kids when needed; continue to pray for my wife; and practice infinite patience until my wife's heart is healed enough where she can open up to me or until she is able to be open to me being open to her.
By the way..I totally agree with all of this. When Final DDay hit in June 1, 2017 .. and we hit the pause button on our marriage .. my wife was very much alone -- both of us were. We had recently moved to Europe (Jan 2017); no friends, family, community; extremely isolating for both of us. She and the kids moved back to the States on Oct 25, 2017; I stayed in Europe until I was able to move home on Feb 2, 2018. I moved home..but we were in separate bedrooms. (That was the first time the little kids knew something was very wrong in our marriage.) Our friends and family still didn't fully know the severity of our marital problems..some did -- most did not. As spring and summer of 2018 approached, more and more people found out. Then mid-August 2018, I was asked to move out of the house. Everyone knows now. .. The wall between us..which began to be visible to me on June 1, 2017 -- our 20.5 year marriage up to that point...and my IA (Intimacy Anorexia) and all of my failings and how I emotionally hurt my wife through my PM'ing and my behavior.....I CAUSED that wall of division between my wife and I. I worked hard through my recovery, which really started in Nov 2017 when I found NoFap and realized/acknowledged that I was a porn addict (June - Nov 2017 was my pre-recovery). Anyway, I worked hard through my recovery in trying to drill through that wall and reach my wife. But looking back...I think I needed to NOT actively try and drill through the wall....rather, focus on myself and my recovery; be available to my wife if/when she reached out to me; and simply be patient...for 15 months or 30 months or however long it would take. (Or until one of us completely gave up on the marriage)
I'm hearing that feeling of being alone a lot. I have felt that too and often. My wife and I are both in recovery groups that meet weekly. She with other women who are in recovery (most of their SOs are still in denial) and me with a group lead by my counselor for sex addicts. This has helped with that feeling more than anything else I have tried. Picking up the phone and calling a guy from group who gets it. Or meeting for coffee or something has been immeasurably helpful for me and I know that it has helped her too, especially when we were separated. From my experience we both needed to travel our separate recovery routes for a while before we could actually work on our relationship.
Sorry for the late reply (out with my daughter) Your wife doesn’t want you to communicate more than likely because she is still scared. Right now you’re in a place where you want to do better for yourself and for her. So wanting her to open up may seem somewhat selfish ... hear me out I’m not trying to bust your balls... selfish because when you were heavy in her addiction you didn’t care about her feelings (just like every other addict) you continued to lie and to keep things hidden while she was probably desperately wanting you to change. Now you’ve hit rock bottom and the thought of losing her has caused you to man up and want to change. To her she is probably thinking “he’s going to tell me everything and anything I want to hear to win me back and then he’s just going to go back to the secrets and the lies” I know you’re saying to yourself “that won’t happen I am a changed man!” But she doesn’t know if she can believe that. Much like the boy who cried wolf. Could you try to court her and woo her and have her remember why she fell in love with you? Perhaps rent a hotel room for a weekend (not for sex unless that naturally happens) but to get her away from daily life and steesss. Write her a letter about how she has changed your life for the better let her know that you were not the best man for her but losing her has made you want to spend the rest of your life making it right? She hasn’t filed for divorce yet which is a very good sign she’s not done
Yes...but not right now. For Valentine's Day two days ago -- I got her a present + flowers (both delivered on Thu)...and Wed night, late at night after tucking in the kids, on my way out to leave to go to my temporary home...I left my wife a card in her car. (I found a blank Valentine's Day card..and wrote a TON in it / poured my heart out / etc.) Thursday, Valentine's Day came and went and I didn't hear anything from her. (Thursday's and Monday's are days that we don't see each other at all...but Friday morning, I go over to the house to pickup the kids.) Friday morning..I didn't see the flowers in the house. My wife told me Friday morning she would email me about Valentines. 10:00AM Friday, my wife emailed me and told me she received the gift, flowers and card. She did not open any of them. She would be returning the gift and flowers to me. Her email was compelling...and piercing...and she laid out very clearly why she was not accepting the gifts / it made me realize that so quickly after a major relapse, betrayal, and pain I caused her....that it was foolish of me to think she would/could accept it. I asked my wife if she opened the card...she said No. I replied to my wife's email and simply said: "I understand. Please hold on to the card...I hope and pray that at some point in the future--whenever you are ready--that you are able to read it." .. I tried very hard to court her and woo her from Feb - Aug 2018, after moving home from Europe (was there 3 months by myself). I failed..miserably..and all of that led to my wife asking me to move out. DON'T GET ME WRONG: I was not perfect in how I acted towards my wife...about 3 times over that timeframe, I reacted badly to my wife's triggers. I was 100% sober from PM'ing / heavily pursuing my recovery / etc. But what my wife needed was not me pursuing her ... but she needed / she aaked for time and space to heal. I gave her some of that...but not enough. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts...I hope one day she can read what I wrote to her on Thursday. And I hope that she is able to slowly open up her heart to me again and/or allow me to open my heart to her. (I can pour my heart out in a letter to her .. but she has to read it for it to ever matter.)
Hang in there...these days/months/(?years?) are long, lonely and hard. But we have to give our spouses the time and space to heal. Betrayal Trauma is real and it's a big deal. Hang in there.
And to you too...i never realized how much my secret behaviors reflected onto my moods in everyday life. Something as simple as picking up the flavored coffee from starbucks she liked would piss me off cause it took an extra minute to make. Or feeling uncomfortable situational anxiety and not manning up to the task like going to her cousins weddings (i took fishing trips). My emptiness further kept the circle going because to fill voids i would dive into hobbies and spend lots of money on objects and big boy toys and I couldnt even take her out to dinner once a month cause i was unmotivated to do so. She has had many health issues in our relationship and during these times i was selfish and not anywhere near as fully supportive as i could be. I was more worried about when was i gonna get laid again. Which didnt happen because i focused and obsessed over that $hi+ which probably subconscuously creeped her out. Why was sex was a thought for me when my wife needed 6 months to recover from surgery. I feel sometimes i was emotional unhuman though i never verbally abused her the passive aggressive secretuve behavior qas way worse. Calling her a name every day would have been better than the games i played. Maybe if i showed her i could have been the rock she needed i would have been rewarded with more sex and love. I remember fapping in the bathroom when she was watching tv on the couch on numerous occasions and i could have made a move or snuggled her. But i must accept and own these events because i have no choice but to change. I hope i can prove to her that ending this without marriage counselor is a mistake and that i will work on myself. I have my first therapy session tomorrow. I must release my hatred of myself and my shame and move on. I type this now as im home alone (a trigger) but im walking the steps to accept and share my emotions rather than going to bury them on the computer
Thanks for sharing...I relate to a lot of what you said -- I too was very passive aggressive / always looking forward to the next sexual encounter with my wife. I remember in March or April 2017 (our Final DDay was June 1, 2017--that is when we pushed the pause button On our marriage) -- in March or April, I asked my wife if sex to her felt like I was "raping" her...not in a violent way - but I felt the vibe (for the first time in our marriage) that my wife really, really didn't want to uave sex..but would go through with it. (she probably had those feelings for a while..and just hid it well) --- I asked that question to my wife very gently...she answered and said "No..not at all." But I still felt weird for feeling that way. Looking back -- I was always pursuing my wife sexually..always looking forward to it...even though we had little to no emotional connection, which is what she SSOOO desired to have with me. I failed my wife in so many ways....married for 22.5 years now -- our marriage on hold for 20 months now. Who knows is she can ever forgive me / open up her heart again to me / be vulnerable .... time will tell.
Though anonymous starting to share is helping me beyond belief. Focus on yourself and your new sense of self will vibrate on a higher level of energy and bring the changes. Accept them whatever they may be and allow yourself to be led into the light. Do not harbor shame guilt or despair which is what i am learning to do. Accept that. Whether it is with your wife of now or a future relationship you must be different. I must be different. So that it us bot repeated
