No Proselytizing

This rule is interesting to me. I understand the need or desire to not want this forum to be completely overrun with religious stuff, and I have no issue with that at all. But what exactly should be considered proselytizing?

I've gotten in trouble before after someone reported me for this, a long time ago, and it honestly was ridiculous to me at the time, and I still don't see why certain things fall under that rule.

Here's the thing... If we strip aside all of the religious conflicts and disagreements and all of the emotions and heated arguments and negative connotations, yada yada... let's look at it....

If someone posts a thread asking for advice on how to eat healthier, and asks everyone what has worked for them, and people suggest various things that have helped them (i.e. veganism, keto, raw vegan diet, juicing, etc.) nobody gets mad about that. And they shouldn't, of course, even if they disagree with the advice, because all anyone is doing is saying "here's a recipe that has worked for me, here's why it worked for me, you can give it a try if you would like to see if it works for you too."

So what if someone asks about help with mental health, or emotional health, or self worth, etc? Why is it any different for me, or anyone else, to mention their religious beliefs and how those have helped them in those areas? It's literally the same exact thing. You're saying "this recipe has worked for me, you can try it out if you'd like to see if it works for you too." I'm not talking about the people who are pushy or rude or judgemental, but I know for a fact that the one time I got officially written up for "proselytizing" I was definitely not being pushy or rude in any way. I was simply providing another option to look into, just like everyone else here does all the time. But for some reason, when that option is God, people get antsy and certain people who have strong negative opinions on that subject decide to report it, and the forum doesn't allow that option to be shared.

This, to me, seems like actual censorship. I don't like when people toss that word around willy nilly, but it seems like it applied when someone has a solution that has helped them, but they aren't allowed to share that solution with others on the basis of... what? Atheists might be offended?

I just don't really get it. If it's done in s respectful manner, not being pushy or judgemental, I don't see what's wrong with offering the option and allowing someone to come to their own conclusion. As a Christian, if a Muslim person, in a kind manner, tried to help me out by offering me the option of coming to Muhammad or whatever, I wouldn't be offended and want their comment taken down. I would kindly say thank you for trying to help, but I am not going to do that.

To be fair, I don't think that rule is often enforced unless people go too far with it, which I agree with. But I do remember that rule being used against me when I definitely wasn't being disrespectful toward anyone else's beliefs, and the person who reported me wasn't even the OP of the thread I was replying to. I'm not like bitter or angry about this or anything, I'm just curious and wanted to start a conversation about why it's so much more controversial to suggest religion as a solution for certain problems than it is to suggest therapy or medication or a new diet, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

I don’t know why someone who doesn’t believe in god would be offended by the fact that someone else does.
I don’t believe the tooth fairy is real but I’m not offended if someone wants to think she does.
Even if they post advice about leaving a tooth under my pillow I’m not going to be offended.
I will just ignore the advice and move on.

 

I never understood why people get so butthurt when people of faith give their opinion or advice. When Jehovahs Witnesses come to my door I’m not rude to them. I thank them for thinking of me and let them have their moment. When it’s done they go on with their life and I go one with mine. I’ve done the same with the Mormons that bike around the neighborhood while I’m walking. When they leave I wish them a good day and safe travels since I know there are some real motherfuckers out there.

I will say if any of these Mormons ever come to my place dressed as Jake and Elwood Blues then I’ll probably consider converting.

When it comes to the forums I say have at it and share what has helped you.

 

I agree with your view that your comment shouldn't have been taken down.

I could see how people would get annoyed however. So a post about trying to find better eating habits or whatever, and the answers say try veganism. That is different in a way then "how to improve mental health?" "Turn to God." Veganism has physical results that are testable.

People like to answer alot of questions with "God." And yes, it is annoying to some, particularly atheists. Reason being you can't answer questions with "God." I'm not remotely atheist and its just a little strange to do that. A more preferred answer to that question would be a tested, scientific answer like "meditation."

Atheists don't believe in God, so a website of primarily God would annoy them when they're trying to find solutions. There's a reason why people don't really bring up politics or religion that much in real life.

Should your solution being "God" be taken down? Absolutely not, you're stating an opinion just like anybody else. It's not your responsibility if they get annoyed, it's what worked for you (as you stated).

**imagine this website being mainly Buddism. Catholics are in the minority. When you ask a question looking for results and you mainly get answers like "Pray to Buddha and he will guide you." Would this not annoy you a little? Especially bc it's not your belief and you want a real testable solution. Not angry, more annoyed. Not too much to report the comment, however.

 

Well, I don't agree with treating other people a certain way because of what someone else has done to you. I've never been rude or mean to anyone who simply doesn't believe in God and is minding their own business, and I've never forced anyone to read the Bible or rejected anyone. That's kind of the same thing as women who have had really bad experiences with men in the past being rude to or hating men today. It's not fair. I understand why they have that distaste in their mouth, but it's not fair to treat someone a certain way because of what someone else has done.

Freedom to not listen to what someone has to say is different than removing what they said so that nobody can ever see it, because you don't want to listen to it. I don't believe comments should be removed unless they are excessively rude or offensive (like misogynistic or misandric comments, hateful comments, racist comments, etc.) or, given the nature of the site, if they are too sexually triggering.

That's sort of what happened. The only "guideline" I broke was supposedly "no proselytizing." Which seems like a silly rule to me, when people can talk all they want about all kinds of different weird spiritual beliefs that I think are wrong, but as soon as we are talking about God or a specific religion, it's all of a sudden a completely different thing that isn't allowed. That just strikes me as odd if people are being respectful and not breaking any additional rules, like being mean to other users or whatever.

That's basically what I did in the thread I was reported for. And the OP didn't even have an issue with what I said, and he private messaged me and said he appreciated my comments and that the other guy (the guy who came in all triggered because someone said "God" and decided to report me) was being a jerk.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I don't bring God into many conversations here at all unless I know the person is religious, because it would often be unproductive. I'm just talking about the official rule of no proselytizing being strangely discriminatory, to me, specifically against religion, when everything else is fair game. People can talk about conspiracy theories that a minute fraction of the entire population even believes in, but we can't mention something that has changed millions of lives.

It just seems funny to me. Like I was just watching a documentary the other day about veganism, and it was showing how many people have had their lives and health totally changes by going vegan and how sad they were that they didn't hear about it sooner and that they want everyone to know about it, but people either don't want to hear it, or meat corporations are fighting to combat the message because they don't want things to change. That's kind of how I feel about God.

In general, I'm of the mind that if nobody is being disrespectful, why censor what they're saying, even if you completely disagree with it? We are all human, and there are plenty of things we could be wrong about. So maybe that person you think is crazy is actually spot on. If they're not harming anybody or being rude, then I don't see why there's a rule to keep them from talking about what they feel is important and has helped them and might help others.

 

I’ve met and used to be a very militant vegan so I’m going to have to disagree with you there. I’ve had friends banish me because I chose to eat meat again and I’ve also had plenty of vegan propaganda shoved down my throat by those who did not respect my decision. Some have even threatened to physically hurt me so I can know what animals feel like when they’re slaughtered. Now I’m not saying ALL vegans are like this but to say there aren’t dietary zealots out there would be to put your head in the sand Ethan.

Also vegetarianism, veganism, and other diets absolutely have dogmas; for example not eating meat is a dogma of vegetarianism/veganism. Dogmas are simply maxims and every belief system as them including atheism.

All in all Cas has used a good analogy for religion, unless you can think of a better one?

 

See, I just completely disagree. I don't understand why it's annoying. If you disagree with it, why not just ignore it? There's no reason to be annoyed at someone who is trying to help you, even if their advice is dumb. People have given me so much dumb advice here, and I don't get mad and try to get their come t's removed. I thank them, because they're trying to help and they have a kind heart.

And the thing is, God really is my answer to everything. In my opinion, he is THE answer to everything. I don't always bring that up, because I know it won't be well received, but just think from my perspective for a moment: I feel like I'm sitting on a gold mine. Like I have the secret answer to all of life's problems, and I'm not allowed to tell anyone about it. That's really frustrating sometimes. Sometimes people share experiences that I can directly remember experiencing myself, and literally the only thing that finally helped me after years of struggle was turning to God. So how can I just sit there and not offer that as an option when I know it's worked for me? It's just strange to me that some people have such a stigma about God that they get so upset over that, when it would be a completely different story if we were talking about anything else. In any other situation, if someone had a magic solution that could fix the problem you're having, it would be almost cruel to not tell people about it.

And I don't really even believe that meditation has as much power as people say it does. And I certainly don't believe in binaural beats, but people suggest that stuff all the time and nobody gets mad. I don't see why it can't be the same with God. You can take the advice or leave it, but there's no reason to get mad or annoyed when someone is being kind and trying to help you.

Yes, I agree. Which is why I've always been supportive of the fact that this is a secular site, not purely a religious one. There aren't a lot of sites out there like this that are largely secular, and I think that's a great thing. That's why we have groups where religious threads often get moved to, and that's fine. But I'm not talking about entire threads dedicated to talking about religion.

I don't think politics are the same. Nobody has ever dropped to their knees bawling their eyes out because their life has been changed by becoming a Republican.

But I think people should talk about religion more, and I think other people should be willing to listen. I've always had a fairly negative view of veganism, but I'm a reasonable person, and the more I've heard people telling their stories of how veganism has changed their life, I realized I need to open my mind a bit more and listen to what they're saying, because I could be wrong. And I now believe that I was wrong, and that if I can ever deal with the sacrifices I would have to make, I should become vegan because it seems to be what is healthiest for the body.

I think religion is a somewhat equivalent example, because it's something a lot of people have negative opinions about (a lot of people hate vegans and roll their eyes whenever anyone starts to talk about veganism). But I wish people would talk about it more and other people would be more respectful about someone trying to share something with them that has changed their life. Again, like I've said before, if I had a dear friend who loved me and wanted me to be as happy as they were, so they started talking to me about how they found the secrets to life through Islam or Buddhism, I wouldn't be annoyed. I would be grateful to have a friend who cares about me enough to try to help me find joy, and I would politely tell them that I disagree with their views and that I'm very happy with Jesus. I don't see why it needs to be more controversial and complicated than that.

That's really the heart of what I'm trying to get at here. I mean, it's interesting to have a conversation about people who get annoyed and how I wish that would change, but obviously that's just a conversation. I can't change how people feel.

But the main reason I posted this was to address the official NoFap rule that it's basically not allowed. You aren't allowed to even present God as an option. That rule isn't really enforced unless someone gets offended, but like you just said and seem to agree, it shouldn't matter if someone gets offended, unless I was being really rude or breaking an additional rule. I don't think there should be a no proselytizing rule, personally. That doesn't mean I would go around talking about God 24/7 to everyone if the rule wasn't there, because like I said in the comment above, I know that that's often not going to be well received and wouldn't be productive. But sometimes it might be, so I might as well toss it out there and see if the person wants to talk more. I don't see why there is an official rule against doing that, when it comes to religion and nothing else.

Well, there's a couple problems with that question. First of all, I'm not Catholic, so that's a little off. Lol but also, I'm not talking about making this site predominantly Christian and having everyone only giving religious advice. Yes, if this site was mostly Buddhism and those were the only responses I got, I would maybe be a little annoyed and I probably would just leave the site. But that's not what's going to happen to nofap if the no proselyzation rule was removed. There are plenty of Christians here already, and I think a lot of them, like me, recognize that "turn to God" isn't a productive answer most of the time. Sometimes it's an option worth throwing out there, but I usually give additional advice as well. Such as "well, for me, God has been really helpful with that. But if you're not willing to pursue that option, have you tried seeing a therapist?" That's essentially a piece of advice I just gave recently on another thread. I'm definitely not advocating for this to become a Christian site. There are already plenty of those.

And just to be clear, I'm not like super pissed off about this rule or trying to lead a crusade to take it down or something. I'm just interested in a conversation on the topic, and I personally think the rule is a bit discriminatory and unnecessary. Because the only times I can think of in which religious advice should be removed by moderators would be if the person is being really rude or something, in which case that post could just be removed for them being rude anyway.

But who knows, I could be wrong. Maybe things would get out of hand if that rule wasn't there. I don't really think it would, but I could be wrong.

 

Also, I do stand by the comparison between religion and different diets. I don't think veganism is as controversial, scientifically, but there are tons of nutritionists and doctors who disagree with a lot of these different types of diets, especially juicing, and say that they are unhealthy. So a lot of those diets are based on anecdotal success stories, not science.

 

Yea, Lance Armstrong got in all kinds of trouble because of juicing.

 

I have no issues with people avengelizing to me, but when I joined this forum I gotta say the rule definitely made sense

I grew up in a super religious family and I'm also the son of a pastor, so I got a lot of talks about porn and masturbation growing up. but these talks were never objective and not once were the legitamite side effects of porn mentioned. it was just religious pontificating and it ultimately did little to sway me from my habit.

I think a lot of people have had similar experiences with all of the misguided anti porn/masturbation sentiments out there. from Mark Driscoll claiming that mastubation can make you gay, to BYU's masturbation-as-war video, there's quite a bit of rhetoric out there when it comes to this topic.

and that's why this forum was a breath of fresh air. finally there was a place that was secular and objective with a very real issue in our society, all while fostering a science-backed community that appeals to all demographics suffering from porn addiction. but this is still a new movement, and there a lot of people that still discount the anti-porn movement as mere religious fanaticism, which it isn't

I think it's cool that this place has religious groups and discussions, but when those conversations start to bleed over into the temporal threads as they often do here, it's just a bad look, and I think it can be unsavory to members looking for an objective approach to a legitimate addiction. I know I was definitely put off by all of the religious discussions on this forum. it just reminded me of being lectured by my pastor dad again and that just wasn't what I was looking for

 

Well see, that's my point. It's technically NOT within the rules of the forums. There is a "no proselytizing" rule. That's what I have an issue with, depending on what they consider proselytizing.

Of course. I'm fully prepared for some people to not want to accept that advice, and I wouldnt push them on it.

I guess I mostly agree with this, but that's not exactly what I'm talking about. There are plenty of logical, scientific reasons and motivations for quitting PMO, so I generally would stick to those unless I'm talking to someone I know is religious.

I'm more referring to the people on here who start threads about being severely depressed and not having anything to live for, not knowing their purpose in life, feeling lost and hopeless, etc. At that point, in those conversations, I don't really feel right about just sitting back with the knowledge I have of Jesus and not saying anything because I don't want to break the rules. Again, I wouldn't be pushy about it, I would just merely speak of my own experience and let the person do with that whatever they choose. But it seems wrong to me to prohibit people from sharing that experience when it could potentially help someone a lot. There are certain subjects that come up in which I truly feel there is no good answer besides Jesus. People who feel they have tried everything the world has to offer and still feel like they don't have anything to live for or don't know why they're here. That seems like the right time to suggest to someone that they seek God, but that is technically against the rules of this forum. Which seems wrong to me.

 

I do remember this one guy who started a thread where he basically said it was impossible for anyone to stop looking at porn if they weren't a Christian. I think it got deleted very quickly and rightly so.

I think when it comes to anything we need to be a bit more humble and say I think or in my opinion - don't present something as complete facts. This can apply to religious, self-improvement or NoFap issues. It might work for you but it might not work for someone else. The only thing in the universe that presents us with undisputed actual facts is maths.
I think there should more consistency on the forum. People do seem to be proselytizing non-religious ideas like how to stop relapsing or how to have a great relationship, at times people can being very forceful in the way they say things. There seems to be a lack of realisation that people are different and different things work for different people. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it the actual truth and saviour. I suppose the trouble with religion is many of its institutions present themselves as being the only truth, but the end of the day you can't really know for sure.