Hi everyone, I'm curious, what roles have self-forgiveness and self-compassion (not to be confused with pity or rationalizing) played in your NoFap Challenges and moments of relapse? What has your challenge shown you about how you relate to these two aspects in your respective journeys? (NOTE: I know that these two terms often have spiritual connotations for some people, but this question is really open to everyone, regardless of belief system.)
I've never thought about self-forgiveness or self-compassion, because they seem kinda selfish to me. I'm too busy thinking about other people -- or at least that's what I try to do every day. I think navel-gazing is unhealthy...the best way for one to grow is to look outward. Forgive those who do wrong to you, beg forgiveness from God and those you've hurt in your life, and have compassion on those you come in contact with. Notice that there's no me-focused "self-" anything there. Just my opinions.
I guess firstly I would suggest that the 'ego' is the part of us that believes it is seperate from everything and everyone else. The part that the governments, advertising, and all other 'organised' institutions go out of their way to re-enforce/pander to because it is the ultimate form of divide and conquer because once you have seperated/isolated/created the 'idea' of an individual the rest is a walk in the park and you just sit back and watch them 'squabble' amongst themselves whilst you and your fellow 'ego-maniacs' find ever increasing ways to tighten your grip and increase your own status, clique, institution etc (all manifestations of 'ego') I believe Krishnamurti was being particularly astute when he observed that, "The people who come together on the basis of political or religious authority, or to practice certain ideals, are all concerned with social reform, which is merely the decorating of the prison walls. Only the person who searches for truth is revolutionary", He also suggested that 'truth is a pathless land' and I guess, to me at least, to do anything but search for 'truth' is to pander to the 'self'-serving conditioning we have allowed ourselves to be subjected to via the 'ego' created institutions that tell us how to think form all angles and at every given opportunity. Truth, to me at least(), might look something like this, "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves." ~ Bill Hicks So, the 'self' might be viewed in three ways: 1. The 'self' that manifest as 'Me, Me, Me!' mentality (as described earlier) 2. The 'self' that should be subjugated for fear of being 'self'-ish (and both 1 & 2 are very easy to manipulate, 'educate', and 'guide') 3. The 'self' that is 'one consciousness experiencing it'self' subjectively'- the definition most 'organised' institutions are petrified of us becoming fully aware of as it would significantly loosen their 'grip' as their particular brand of 'psychological fascism' becomes increasingly exposed. (We live I'm a world of dualities, good versus evil, dark and light etc when there are SO many shades of grey but duality is always encouraged because it is the PERFECT foundation for divide and conquer) Having read your post I know it is the latter idea of 'self' you are referring to and something I've been doing (or more accurately 'practicing') every day is the Buddhist practice of Metta Bhavana which roughly translates as 'the cultivation of loving kindness' and it has helped (or is helping me) to get over certain issues with my'self' and others and is having a profound influence on me since I added it to my regular meditation practice several weeks ago. You don't have to be a Buddhist to practice it (I'm not a Buddhist per se, just interested in anything that makes sense etc) and it is fairly simple, just needs regular practice. If you wanted to try it I suggest you research it online and you can also get loads of guided MP3 recordings which are good to help you establish a practice but here's a rough outline of what you do. First you find a quiet place where you won't be disturbed for about 30 mins.The practice is split into 5 stages but before you start them you get comfortable (find appropriate posture) open your heart, become present/aware of your breathing etc. During the 5 stages you say variations of the following to various people, 'May you be well, may you be happy, may you be free from from suffering etc' (I have my own which I have tailored to suit my own requirements etc but would be happy to share them). In stage one you wish the above for your-'self'. Stage two for somebody you love or are friends with etc. Stage three for somebody 'neutral', somebody you don't really know Stage four for somebody you have difficulty with etc. Stage five for all the above and then for all beings etc. This is a very brief overview/appetiser and this practice is helping me enormously in all areas of my life and I can't recommended it enough as it balances forgiveness and compassion for yourself (and why should you deny your-'self' loving kindness- isn't the lack of that one of the ROOT causes of most of our problems?!) with the same for all other beings (aspects of 'consciousness experiencing itself subjectively') Chuang Tsu said over two thousand years ago, "Those who take delight in success are not wise. Those who show affection to some, and contempt towards others, are not benevolent. Those who are constantly anxious about the future are not serene. Those who strive to profit from every situation, and to avoid loss are not gentle. Those who seek the praise of others and conduct themselves in order to win it, are not honourable. Those who do not understand their true selves are not fit to lead others." And just look at the world we live in. The 'leaders' of the 'organised' institutions we are told to put our 'faith' in... "Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom." ~ Michael Ellner And of course, once you come to understand your true 'self' how can you fail to practice 'self' compassion and forgiveness because charity most certainly does begin at 'home'...
Hi WalshKid. Thanks for posting. Reading posts and replying are part of my recovery. Thank you. The answer for me is 0. I am not part of the challenge and I never relapse. I don't care if we go 100 years, I will not relapse. I am never going back. For me, personally, quitting PMO was almost mechanical. It was quitting a bad habit. Well, that is how I ultimately quit it. I say it like I just made a decision, but I did not. I struggled with it, like we all do. I do not wish to imply I did not struggle; I did. I had many starts and stops, like many of us do, but ultimately I made a decision, a choice, and kept it. I quit debating whether or why I was quitting, and I just quit. For me the "why" of it had to become unimportant. I do have a "why", but quitting had to become everything, regardless of why I was quitting. I see a lot of guys in here looking for a reason to quit, and having one helps. But, ultimately, there is no reason to quit that will make you quit unless you make the decision to quit. I had to stop weighing the decision, I had to stop asking whether it was right or wrong; it simply became a thing I refused to do anymore. Of course, before I got to quit, I debated quitting a lot. I attached moral and philosophical weight to the event and quitting it which I now understand was unhelpful and unreal. I speak for myself, there are others here, whom I respect, who have different approaches. For me, there was a very simple and unromantic answer to the problem for me: I am addicted, I had to quit. I had to understand that quitting was not going to somehow elevate me; it was just going to make me clean. A human being on the planet, among others, who was not addicted, or at least not using. I am not lauded for having quit and never will be. Porn abusers do not get medals for having quit. What we do get is the knowledge we have overcome a thing. It's a small consolation, but I will take it. Though I do consider quitting to be a victory, it is a victory that did not make me a hero. Initially I am sure I did have some philosophical struggle with quitting. But, eventually, when I put quitting in the category of refusing to do a thing, then not doing the thing was no longer a philosophical event. It just became a thing I was never going to do again. I experienced it, then I went to the place where I would never experience it again. At the end of the day PMOing is a thing you will either elect to do, or elect not to do. I have elected not to do it and I will never elect to do it again. For me, PMO is strictly a biological reaction to high speed internet porn. It is a button I am not pushing anymore, ever. I think before I understood the science behind it I did attach some moral or philosophical weight to the question. Now, understanding the science, it is about refusing that dopamine rush. Porn has no value, so giving it up costs us nothing. Giving up a valueless thing requires no moral or philosophical struggle. Get clean. Stay clean. Good luck on your journey.
No worries tiltedjohn! In fact, I was wondering if you were going to bring up Metta, haha, which is a practice that I also used before my PMO challenge and it may have led me to do it. I've thought about this a lot in making any change, where the discourses of guilt/blame/shame, which for me I see as another kind of poison, always lead me back to where I started, so I realized for me, that couldn't be an effective way. (And my suspicion for myself is that if I did quit using guilt/blame/shame, I would simply replace PMO with another dangerous habit but one that just might be socially-condoned and doesn't quite fall under the discourse of 'addictions' because it is so normative in society.) So for me I realized I needed a mental strategy replacement for my thoughts. I'm thinking of calling it "Proactive Compassion versus Reactive Guilt." In regards to forgiveness, that too is not so much about blame/guilt/shame, but just about learning to forgive myself for habitually engaging in unskillful behavior that caused harm to myself and others, as well as something that prevented me from fully attaining the vision for the kind of life I wish to have. This is something I sometimes recite daily before the cravings even start. (For me, this was interesting because I also read, at some point, about the harm that P not only caused my relationship but also to many of the entertainers on so many levels and realized that they would have no industry if they had no customers. Not to say that my not watching P would change all that, but it would be one less customer.) So it became less about guilt/blame/shame and just more about responsibility and accountability to the new vision for myself and how I want it to align with the ones I have my relationships and communities. I also see the 'self' similar to the way that others see it, as you stated, that the self is always interdependent, and so anything internally done for restoring balance to the self is indeed an act that will benefit others. I guess my motto has become I can't give to others without first extending the same 'loving kindness' to myself, and so this journey, for me, really is about that. It's not necessarily philosophical or moral (in the realm of right and wrong). It's about the personal revolution to replacing old, unskillful definitions of loving-kindness with new ones and giving them permission to spread outward. Not spiritual or philosophical, just experiential
Experiental. Precisely. I very rarely use the terms 'spiritual' or 'philosophical' as they are too 'loaded' for me and I do believe, as Krishnamurti observed, that 'truth is a pathless land' (or the pathless path as I like to think of it!) I don't even use the term 'experiental' to be honest but I totally hear and respect where you are coming from etc. I like the way we all come together on this site, sharing ideas, swapping perspectives, helping and gently influencing each other to move forward and its really good to be part of and like you mention in your reply to the above post we are all saying roughly the same things but in slightly different ways, balancing all the various elements to form a really holistic view between us, which is great I've used these two quotes together on here before because I think they increasingly sum up the general vibe of this 'movement' nicely so thanks to all of you “If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. I will pick out the good points of the one and imitate them, and the bad points of the other and correct them in myself.” ~Confucious "We are all like the fingers of a hand; none of us are the same but we are united." ~Noble Warrior That Gives Life. ...and nope I have no idea who the Noble Warrior That Gives Life is but I sure like what he/she said
Tilted! I think I actually prefer that!! Just a quickie I remember hearing that when Thoreau suggested that we 'Simplify, simplify, simplify', Emerson was said to have responded, 'One simplify would have sufficed', (I LOVE that!!) and in the same friendly spirit I would suggest "Proactive Compassion" has a much more direct ring to it minus the 'versus' part. Just a suggestion mate
Haha, agreed! My apologies for misspelling, jiltedjohn. I'll do my best to get it right from now on And I think you're right, "Proactive Compassion" is a good title, and it might be good to even think of how, as men, we are often times not taught to see compassion as something we should extend to ourselves. (For many groups, compassion tends to be associated with 'softness' and femininity.) I think that, in many ways, makes it harder for a lot of us to approach this process of transition with more of a "soft assertiveness." Just my two cents (I'm also using the term transition now, rather than quitting, to describe this experience for me because quitting seems to ring of finality, which can also breed fear of the unknown, whereas transitioning makes me think of intentional growth/rebirth and organic continuity. So I've decided to say I don't 'quit' anything but I transition into new seasons in the life journey. I've discovered there are many ways to transition, and for me it's just easier to do so from a place of confident loving-kindness rather than scolding overtones in my self-talk, which meditation has really made me aware of. But then again, maybe this is what I get for reading 'The Four Agreements' too much, haha.)
Yes so don't take things personally (especially your own self talk!) and keep doing your best!! I like transition and from here on I'm going to quit using the word quit...DOH!!
