Is fantasising a sin

I don't understand why that distinction matters though.... The Ten Commandments aren't the only sins that exist. I don't know if you would call a single person looking at someone with lust "adultery," but I'm not sure why it matters. They're both wrong.

 

I don't believe in that either, but I don't really see how that applies to a discussion about lustful fantasizing.

 

What I'm saying is the definition of adultery is as follows: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse

Now I'm not trying to challenge the bible here (I'm really not) but I suspect the word had different meaning back then, perhaps. So that's most likely the confusion.

I wouldn't say looking at people lustfully adultery, but you showed the reading from Matthew so that's the Vatican's thoughts and I respect that.

What I'm saying is that by current definition, I consider adultery worse than looking at somebody lustfully. Bc I'm going by the current defintion. They are both wrong! Dont get me wrong. I just thought adultery was an intense thing to say.

This is similar to my commandments post, if you remember? You explained it really well. They all fill the glass equally. But I'm going off of which is worse.

Let's say you are married. And your husband cheats on you (adultery) by defintion above vs looking at a girl walking down the street in a lustful manner. Which one do you get mad at more?

 

That was a thought when I was baked. It makes sense in a weird way. So I was curious on the pope and gods viewpoint on wether there's true love or not. It was a question. And if it was yes that they do believe in it, then if a single dude had a true love that was a single girl, and they lustfully looked at eachother, and most likely married later in life. Would that be a sin?

It didn't have anything to do w it directly, but it's important questions. If true love exists in the bible, that is. & I still don't know

 

There is this thing in scripture that many get caught on. It’s called truth. It is a profound thing that is much bigger than true/false statements. So with that in mind...

“The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.” - Psalm 119:160​

Many people will take just one or two true things and think that is truth and miss the bigger picture. It’s kind of like this picture:



Except the truth we are talking about is waaaay bigger than that shape above. It encompasses everything, from the way planets move to strange behaviour of electrons to our thoughts and really, everything.

So in that reference to Jesus, He is talking about the importance of purity of mind. The deeper truth of this goes far beyond things I can explain here on NoFap, but the shallower part is effectively saying that the thoughts which inspire the actions can leave us in a place of guilt.

Put this another way, Jesus didn’t mention anything about envious thoughts...but would it be no less true that would make me guilty of theft by that same logic? So the distinction of adultery isn’t a big issue because fornication is held in a similar light in regards to sinfulness.

Hope this helps you understand this thing a little better

 

I understand what you're saying. I guess I just don't understand what point you're trying to make, because the question was "is fantasizing a sin," not "is it worse for a married person to lust than for a single person to lust." I'm not even sure I agree with your conclusion either, honestly. Lust is lust, regardless of your relationship status. I dont think, in the eyes of God, either one is better or worse.

But again, I don't really see why it matters anyway. I could be misunderstanding you, but to me it just kind of sounds like you're trying to justify being lustful by saying "well at least I'm not as bad as that married guy over there who is doing the same thing I'm doing." And that's definitely not how God views it at all.

I would say yes, that is still a sin. Whether or not "soul mates" exist, which I don't think they do, God knew I was going to marry my husband. But if I had been checking out his body before we were married and thinking about all the ways I wanted to explore it, that would be list and it would be a sin.

I think it is actually possible to even lust after your spouse in a sinful way. But that's a trickier thing to explain, because it comes down to the heart, and I'm not sure I can put that into words.

 

You filed lustfullness under the commandment that is adultery. I was challenging that thought bc of everything i said above. That's all. I don't necessarily think that a single guy looking at a hot girl and a married guy doing the same, I don't think the married guy is worse. It's still lust.

I just don't think adultery and lust are the same thing, that's all. But you and the bible believe that it doesn't matter, Bc they're both sins. So it won't matter if I killed my mom or just didn't follow her directions to refill get prescription. They're both equally sins, so it doesn't matter to draw a distinction.

It doesn't matter in religious context, but I am of the opinion that there's other contexts out there (common decency and law). So if I didn't follow my mom's directions, that's a sin. But not legal ramifications will take place. My mom and family will forgive me relatively quickly. Now if I murdered my mom, I will likely to federal prison even on my 1st count and that I'm white. And morally, it's just more wrong.

I hope that cheats things up. But I'm under the impression you fully believe the readings from the bible and whatnot, which is cool!

And idk how to split up quotes like you, I've tried to figure it out but congrats. So your last 2 paragraphs, again, was responding to a slightly off topic bc interesting thought I had.

Did you say that God knew you were going to marry your husband before you married him? Like predetermination type stuff? How long ago did he know this? That really got me confused especially bc you said God doesn't believe in one true love or soul mates.

& your last paragraph I'm beyond confused but I won't ask for you to put it into words. Idk I think there was a massive confusion due to the definitions of some words

But I think we comprehend what each other are saying in a basic sense

 

Gotcha. Sorry, I don't remember where I said that, so I didn't understand what you were trying to get at.

Go back and read what I said on your other thread, because it seems like you still don't understand. You keep saying it "doesn't matter," but that's not exactly accurate. I'm not going to repeat everything I said there, because it's not even on topic and it took me a while to articulate it properly. Just go back and read it. It does "matter," just not in the sense of separating you from God.

Yeah... that's pretty much exactly the point I made in your other thread. We agree on that, so apparently you didn't understand what I said before.

Yes, I do. I also believe that human beings aren't the best at understanding it at times, and we can be wrong, which is why we need to study from people who know more than us. Like pastors who have studied the original language of the text, the context, the culture at the time, etc, to explain it to us. Or better yet, if one has the time, a study all that stuff yourself.

But I want to reiterate that what you just said is not at all contradictory to the Bible. So I don't want you to be thinking you disagree with God on that point or something. It sounds to me like you completely agree.

It took me a long time to figure that out too. Lol no worries. If you highlight the text you want to quote, it should pop up with a little thing that says "quote, reply." If you hit reply, it'll make a quote of just that highlighted portion. Hope that helps!

Knowing something will happen and making it happen are two different things. The concept of predetermination, honestly, I think is too complex for my brain to understand. I've always been a little confused about how that all works. But no, I don't think my husband was made specifically for me, and I don't think I would be miserable if I had chosen to marry one someone else instead. But God knows everything, from the beginning of time. So yes, He definitely knew, from before I was born, that I would choose, with my own free will, to marry my husband. And if I had chosen someone else, he would have known that too.

Also I want to be clear that I'm not claiming that God doesn't believe in soul mates. I honestly haven't done enough research to make that statement definitively, I'm just saying that from my understanding, I don't think soul mates are a thing. But I could be wrong.

Well, I can try, but just don't hold me too strongly to something I've said here if it comes out wrong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I were to be looking at my husband as if he is a tool for my sexual pleasure, thinking of all the ways I want to use his body to please my own, that would be wrong. That would be lust, but I don't think that type of lust is permissible even in a marriage.

But I would say there is another type of lust that is more infused with love, and that would be like what the book Song of Solomon is all about. Appreciating each others bodies for their beauty and also enjoying the physical pleasure, but also desiring to give pleasure to your spouse. That is permissible within a marriage.

It might just be an argument of semantics, though, because perhaps that latter example shouldnt even be called "lust." In which case, we could just comfortably say that all lust is bad, always. But then the issue is that the latter example of "lust" is still not permissible outside of marriage. So that type of "lust," if we want to call it that, is not always okay. Sometimes it's a sin, and sometimes it's not. At least that's my understanding, but on this particular issue I want to be clear that I'm not sure if I'm 100% right.

However, please also keep in mind that the reason I said that things are different in a marriage is because someone was trying to argue that fantasizing about someone isn't objectifying them because of the book of Song of Solomon, which is clearly ridiculous. That's not the same at all. And quite frankly, I didn't take that person seriously enough to bother giving a well-articulated description of what I meant by "that's different because they're married." Because it was pretty clear to me he didn't want to learn and have a conversation.

 

All good

I keep on thinking of it terms of right v wrong and not the separation from god. I forgot about your example but I understand it completely now and...

This summed it up really well.

Yes I didn't fully understand the whole concept but I have a better idea of it now, especially if you agreed w that. And you know o can see that as being real too. They sins both separate you from God, regardless of what they are. I can see it

*no comment*

It has and it's wonderful

I'm not an expert. But I believe the original meaning long long ago, was in a Christianity context (I believe, maybe just catholism), that predetermination was a theory that all humans are already destined of they would go to he'll or heaven when they die. So no matter how much good or bad they do, they're "predestined" to go there. I personally don't like this theory. Also important to note, this was not in religious texts or even a clergy member. It was a Catholic philosopher that thought of it. But now it may have a different meaning. It could be, for this context, predetermined for you and your husband to be predetermined to get married. And there's nothing you or him or anybody can do about it.

So who's decision (if you marry your husband or somebody else) would that have been? See this is where it gets messed up a bit. Bc if God knew before you guys both were born, that would marry, than he has that plan for other married couples. What about the people that die before getting married, and up not getting together w somebody, or develops a porn addiction & cant (like me lol). Just messing around. But God intended that plan for them as well and why would he do that?

Yes but if we're talking about God, him knowing something will happen means that it will happen. He's not making it happen lile messing w the factors but if he knew than it would happen

This is much better than the paragraph before this. I agree with this man Solomon.

I don't really agree but 100% understand it's in the bible and I respect that. I know the bible is strict on no sex before marriage, which is cool. My main thing would be I think you can love somebody outside of marriage. Mainly bc marriage is a manmade construct but this is getting off topic so I cant get into that.

Yeah people be like that sometimes

 

Good! Sounds like we cleared that up

I mean yeah, I understand all of that. I know what predetermination is, I just meant that I haven't actually studied it enough to comment on whether or not that theory is correct. I think it's a slight misunderstanding of the power of God, because our brains can't really comprehend how He can know everything that's going to happen while still allowing free will and not *making* everything happen. It seems like a paradox to me, but I'm willing to accept that's just because my human brain I'd limited in my ability to understand God.

Like I said, this is the part I don't fully understand, because it seems paradoxical. We have free will, but that doesnt take away the fact that He knows all. God wasn't surprised when we got addicted to porn, and he wouldn't have been surprised if I didn't marry my husband and chose to marry someone else instead. That doesn't necessarily mean it's His "plan," it just means He knew it would happen.

I think you're maybe forgetting about the free will part. We both chose to get addicted to porn. That wasn't God's ideal path for our life, but He knew it would happen, and He did allow it to happen, because He allows us to have free will.

Yes... I don't really understand what your question is here. If someone is psychic, for example, they know what will happen in the future. That doesn't mean they made it happen, they just know it will happen. It's different with God, of course, because He has the ability to intervene, but sometimes He does and sometimes He doesnt. That's not really for me to judge why or why not God chooses to intervene in certain situations.

 

I see it alot more simpler. Keep in mind I'm not necessarily a believer of this theory. But if you do in fact believe God is all knowing and knows who you're going to marry and whatnot, then it doesn't matter what happens in our lives bc It's "pre determined". So we have free will and do what we want but God knows the outcome. So in a sense God does "have a plan for each and every one of us" as people say alot.

But how detailed of a plan does he have? Does he "know" what you're going to be eating for dinner tonight? Does he know what time you're going to yawn for the 1st time today? And I hope I'm not being rude but it raises questions. How much does God know? If he knows all of that specific stuff, do we actually have free will? If doesn't know that specific stuff, then what's the most specific thing he'll know; who you'll marry, how you'll die, when you retire, etc? Is it possible God created the universe and that in itself is his "plan"?

I'm not asking you to answer those but it's just to get people thinking. Perhaps this is a paradox

Yeah alright this is very confusing stuff. You right, I don't think the human mind can comprehend it fully. Maybe his plan is constantly changing, maybe he has no plan at all and he simply is aware of everything that happens in the future while we create that future events w the free willed actions we take. So as the events happen, he already knows theyre happening as theyre happening, without creating a plan for those events. Which is the most badass thing I've heard.

Concur

 

Yeah, I know this is how a lot of people see it, but I disagree. I don't see it that way.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but I just don't get what you don't understand about the difference between knowing something and causing it. It seems really simple to me. Like I said, if someone was psychic, they could see the future and know what I will have for dinner tonight. That doesn't mean they caused it to happen.

Well, God is pretty badass, so who knows.

I think when people say that God has a plan for your life, they don't mean every little tiny thing. I don't think God cares much about what you have for dinner tonight. But He might have a plan for where you choose to work or who you choose to marry. But the thing is, we can also go against His plans. That happens in the Bible all the time. God tells people what He wants them to do, and they just flat out don't do it. He knew they would choose to reject His plan, but that doesn't mean that the path they ultimately chose was His plan. His plan was something else, and they chose to reject it and do their own plan.

I actually don't think it's as complicated as some people make it out to be. God has some plans for your life, but He also gives you the freedom to choose whether or not you will partake in those plans. And He also knows what plan you will choose before you choose it. Those things don't contradict each other.

I gotta say, this has been a really captivating and respectful conversation. I appreciate it! These are the kinds of "debates" (if you can even call it that) that I really enjoy. Thanks for being level headed and respectful

 

Regarding the Jesus quote, doesn't Jesus say right after that if your hand causes you to sin, then cut it off? Nobody does that, yet if you take Jesus literally, then there should be a whole lot of handless, eyeless people running around. You're taking Jesus too literally. An unmarried man cannot commit adultery - period.

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming that everything Jesus has ever said should be taken literally.