Some things about Christian culture confuse me

In most Christian churches there are regular church services for everyone as well. It's not about being secretive, it's about bringing like-minded people together who have similar life experiences and can help each other and relate to each other in unique ways. I don't really see what's confusing about that. I'm sure you can think about your own life and imagine the difference between having a deep conversation with your mother or sister, versus a male friend or a child. They're very different. Nobody is stopping women from speaking to men, but sometimes it's nice to have a group of other ladies to connect with.

Now, I will say, I don't like segregation in the church too much. I think some churches (Catholic churches included) go too far in this. I'm really grateful to have found a ministry in my church that understands the value of men and women together and not trying to separate us all the time. I love men and I get along well with them, and I don't like being forced to just be with women all the time. That being said, I don't feel that all Christian churches are like that all the time or anything. Most of them offer women's only bible studies, or men's only, or kids only, etc. But it's not like you HAVE to go to them. And there are also often other options as well that don't separate gender.

I'm really confused by this... I absolutely have access to all of the same help a man would have in my church congregation, for issues of sexual sin. In fact, I emailed my Young Adult Pastor (we have a few pastors at my church, because it's pretty big, but he's the one I feel closest to and most comfortable with) and he was kind and supportive and gave me resources, like the email address of the head Pastors wife, for me to get whatever help and accountability I would like.

I also talked to the youth Pastor about my issues with PMO, when I was considering joining the youth ministry team, and he was incredibly supportive as well. I do agree that most people tend to assume that porn and masturbation are typically male problems, but that's not unique to the church. That's a society issue. And if all the help you have is confession, then in my opinion, I feel like my church is more supportive and has more resources for me than that.

That's funny, I've always thought that was more of a Catholic thing... the public declarations. I think you're generalizing and perhaps haven't spent enough time in a Christian church, because I've never met anyone who had some public ceremony or declaration of their sexual purity, and I've been a Christian my whole life. I did have a purity ring, myself, and so did some of my friends, but it wasn't some big deal ritual or something. Its just a physical reminder, and a sign to the world that you are not available, just like a wedding ring is a sign to the world that you are not currently available. I know some people wear their purity rings until they're engaged, but I took mine off when I was old enough to be looking for a husband. I didn't want people to think I was married, and I also didn't see the need in having a ring to represent purity. I can be pure without a ring. I don't think the type of public declaration or importance of purity rings you're describing is as common as you think.

I hope I didn't come across as unkind at all. If I did, it wasn't my intention.

 

Also, when it comes to providing different ministries for kids or teenagers, I actually think that can be very valuable. At my church we have classes for kids, separated by grades (not sure exactly what the brackets are, because I don't have kids), then we have groups for junior high, high school, young adults (18-30), and then the main service where anyone is welcome. But remember, all of this is optional. It's not like parents aren't allowed to bring their kids into the main service. However, is a 5 year old kid really going to learn as much from a sermon that was written for adults as he would in a class tailored to his age group? Probably not. Same might be true for teenagers as well. I know I benefited a lot from having a group of teenagers who were all learning together, and a pastor who was specifically trained and educated to guide people my age, rather than just going to the "adult" service where I didn't feel like I could learn as much at that age.

It also makes a huge difference when you go to a big church. Having a smaller group that is more tailored to your needs is helpful for building community and for connecting with the pastor on a more personal level. I feel closest with our young adult pastor, who is the son of our head pastor, because I've been able to spend some good time with him, since he isn't "In charge" of ministering to the entire congregation and he has more time and energy to focus on the smaller group.

 

you dont need to use rings or public declaratioms (except marriage maybe)
i think the only reason people segregate is to get talked to exclusively

so usually men need to hear certain things
and women need to hear certain things

but yeah both need help being chaste despit common thought

 

I know plenty of people who feel the opposite and were bored out of their minds in the adult services and learned absolutely nothing, because they either didn't understand it or because they didn't care because it was so boring.

The message is the same in Christian services for kids. It's not the exact same words, and its presented differently, but they are still learning about the same things, but in a way that they can understand better. What's wrong with that? It's the difference between sending a 1st grader to 1st grade, or sending him to tag along with his mom in college. I don't see what's harmful about teaching a child something in a way they can understand better and get more out of.

Yes, of course. And that can happen at home all through the week. And when a parent gets to church, it's their choice how they want their kids to learn. I, personally, would choose to send them to a class they can understand better and get more value in.

I'm not trying to say you can't or shouldn't take your kids into the adult services with you. You can do whatever you want with your kids, and neither one is "wrong." I personally believe my way would be better for the kid, but either one is better than nothing. But I don't see the purpose in trying to tell people that it's harmful somehow to send their kids to classes they will understand better. I don't agree with that at all. You do your thing and let them do theirs. I went to Sunday school classes my whole life, and youth group as well, and I turned out just fine.

 

*DISCLAIMER* I just want to be clear that my tone here is not meant to be argumentative or angry. I'm simply giving my opinion in a form of debate. I'm not mad or annoyed or anything. Tone is hard to convey through text, especially when you say things bluntly and matter-of-fact, like I often do.

Okay, so here are the core issues put forth in that article.

1. Churches have a youth/young adult retention problem
2. We are not always transitioning children, teens or young adults well
3. Adults ignoring children, their doubts and concerns, increase the risk of drop-out
4. Intergenerational serving, mentoring and discipling mitigate drop-out
5. There’s a need for connection to adult church and to see adults practising their faith
6. There’s a need for intergenerational engagement outside church settings

None of those things necessitate getting rid of children's Sunday school or youth groups. This is a classic case of two people (you and me) recognizing the same problem, wanting the same result from a solution, but choosing different paths to get there. I personally don't believe just putting all the kids into the adult services is going to fix any of those problems. Furthermore, I think many other changes could fix those problems, while keeping the separate classes as an option.

1. Churches have a youth/young adult retention problem

Yes, many of them do. It seems like you think that's because they're separated from their parents, but I don't know how you've come to that conclusion of cause and effect. This is just a statement of a problem, there's nothing here that shows what causes it. We are all just speculating.

I would say that a lack of parental involvement in their child's life and faith would definitely encourage the child to not care about that faith later on. But that doesn't mean the solution is to get rid of youth group. That, alone, doesn't fix anything. A parent can still be completely uninvolved in a kids spiritual life, even if their kid is sitting next to them at church. That problem is likely going to be solved at home. The parents need to get involved more and ask their kids questions about what they just learned, and they can do that whether they went to the main service or youth group or Sunday school or whatever. My parents always asked me on the car ride home what I learned in class that day, and were very involved in my spiritual life on every other day of the week as well.

2. We are not always transitioning children, teens or young adults well

Okay, that might be true I suppose. But again, is the solution to that "just put them all in the same service so we don't have to worry about transition"? I don't think so. I think that's kind of lazy thinking. Essentially it's saying, we're bad at transition periods, so let's just get rid of them altogether so we don't have to figure out how to do them better. But then you would lose all of the benefits of your kids having spiritual fellowship with their peers, having more direct access to the pastor or teacher to ask questions when they don't understand something, and having a lesson that is tailored to their age and ability of comprehension. I believe those things are worth making an effort to fix the transition issue, if there is one.

3. Adults ignoring children, their doubts and concerns, increase the risk of drop-out

Again, this has nothing to do with where your kids are sitting in church. That's a home problem and can be fixed in the home.

4. Intergenerational serving, mentoring and discipling mitigate drop-out

Again, that problem wouldn't be automatically solved by just having your kids with you in the adult services. In fact, I think youth group and Sunday school are amazing opportunities for this. I was a youth leader for about 5 years, and I worked on a team of people whose ages spanned from 15 to 50 and were committed to attending youth services, mentoring the kids, leading small group discussions, going on fun retreats with everyone to build community and fellowship, and serving alongside the kids on mission trips, fundraisers, etc. These adults volunteered to be part of this because they felt it was where their heart was and where their gifting was, to work with that age group of people. I'm not convinced that just placing kids or teenagers in a room full of adults will somehow make them feel connected to the adults around them. But having a group of adults who have dedicated their time and attention and effort to building community with those teens and mentoring them and answering their questions and encouraging them along their spiritual walk absolutely will.

5. There’s a need for connection to adult church and to see adults practising their faith

I agree with the latter half of that statement, but I don't necessarily think the former half is the answer. Or at least, it's definitely not the only answer. Your children should be seeing you practice your faith every day. They don't need to go to church with you to see that. And again, there are generally adult volunteers in youth group, and the teenagers there can see the way those adults practice their faith as well.

6. There’s a need for intergenerational engagement outside church settings

Agreed. What does that have to do with kids being in Sunday school vs. being in adult services?



Again, to sum up, we both recognize issues in the church, we just have different ideas of how to solve them. Personally, I don't think just putting all the kids and teenagers in the same service as the adults is going to solve all, if any, of those problems, and I think that would probably make more problems come up. Problems like "kids don't want to go to church because they don't understand the lesson and are bored" and therefore "bored kids whining and complaining in the middle of church disrupts the adults around them, causing them to be unable to learn and grow as well." Those are just two examples, but the point is, we just have a difference in opinion. I don't think it's necessarily wrong of you to bring your kids into the main service with you, but I DO think it's wrong of you to imply that any church that isn't run that way is doing something wrong. I can see a plethora of benefits to having separate classes for kids and teens, and I've seen the results of that with my own eyes. And let's not forget that the article isn't a comparison of Christian and Catholic churches... If the article said they polled numbers from Christian churches with Sunday school and youth group classes and compared them to Catholic churches that just have one service, and the Catholic churches had a much higher retention rate among teenagers, then perhaps the solution you've suggested would hold some weight. But that's not the case, so I still completely disagree that making that change would fix any of these problems.

 

Evangelicals can be more extreme than Catholics on this.

But it does happen.



I have heard some Christians accuse churches of trying to break up families by having kids seperate from their parents during services. I disagree because it can bring a better understanding of Chtistianty if done well. Also nothing wrong with having men's and women's group as long as it isn't done too much.

In my view a church shouldn't allow itself to get too big. People can get really lost in these churches that have thousands and thousands of people. I don't like these megachurches because they're more like franchizes rather than churches. There's so many scandals coming out of so many of these churches... At times their pastors turn into celebrities. Mars Hill Church in Seattle is perfect example of a church getting far too big. I use to be a Mark Driscoll fan, and while at times he was a good bible teacher, how he treated members of his congurgation was disturbing.

I'm not a big fan of churches anyway... The last time I went to one was about 3 years ago, I might return some day but I'm in no rush to go back.

 

Ever think about maybe visiting a church that isn't a protestant church??? it might be an interesting experience for you. I think when I visited different a bunch of different catholic and orthodox churchs it made me have a profound love for my faith. You come to acknowledge that we truly are united.

 

I thought about going to a Catholic church near me but the thing with the Catholic church is their problem with child abuse. It might be fair to say that most priests don't abuse children but that will always be playing on my mind. If I were to meet a priest I'm pretty sure I'll be wondering if this priest is a child abuser. I also thought about going to a Quakers meeting and told someone in my old church and he freaked out. IDK...

Another thing I hate about church is that you have to talk to people after the service. It might be my social awkwardness or my introvertism but I would hate how after the service people would talk to each other. If I didn't talk to anyone I would feel guilty but at the same time, I didn't want to talk to anyone. Now that I am no longer going I'm glad I don't have to go through that. But at the same time, I feel isolated since I'm no longer seeing people. I can't make up my mind what I prefer, isolation or social awkwardness... I think if I have to choose one I would choose the former.

 

We grow most in close proximity to one another. That’s why we have smaller groups for people around our age and gender. You can’t get very close to someone else during the main church service of hundreds.

 

I wouldn't let a pre-conceived bias stop you from exploring what's out there. If your not too comfortable going to a Catholic church, then try visiting an English speaking orthodox church. They have very similar styles. I'm an introvert just like you are, but once I found a church that made me feel comfortable, I find myself needing to be around others. I've grown in the virtue of love due to the love I found in the people at my church. That being said, my church isn't perfect, but I have to remember that these are people who are trying to change themselves just as I am.

And we also have to remember that Christ didn't intend for salvation to be a personal thing. He intended it to be a communal thing. We are all members in the body of Christ, and only in a community would we reach salvation.

 

You should probably challenge that type of thinking since it's unhealthy on many different levels. People are not guilty until proven innocent, that wouldn't be fair for someone to do that to you so you shouldn't do that to others. Regardless, the above reasoning would be like saying you're going to cease to be Christian because of Judas' actions or because John was the only one out of the 12 who didn't betray, hide, or deny knowing Christ.

 

I think men and women need these segregated groups because they deal with a topic that is very difficult to address within a co-ed environment. Groups like this give each side a sense of solidarity that they're not alone in their struggles. While men and women are equally human that's usually where a lot of the equality ends. We are different in how we receive and express our daily struggles and so the support will be different. The segregation also takes into account our own weaknesses as human beings where shares from the opposite sex could lead to curiosity or even unwanted advances. These are things which happen even here on NoFap through PM's.

 

Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about the different denominations and what everyone believes and how they act and such. I'm just "doing me" as the youngsters say.

Yep, I never said it didn't happen. I just said I've never met anyone who has done anything even close to that, and I've been a Christian my whole life, living in Christian circles and having tons of Christian friends. My point wasn't to say that what she's saying doesn't exist, but that I don't think it's as commonplace as she may think, considering I've never met anyone like that, and I've met tons of Christians throughout my life, in all kinds of different denominations.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that either. I really like the pastor from the Villiage church, but I feel like it's kind of weird to have a church be so big and popular like that.

Unfortunately we have one of those big popular churches in my town, and it happens to be one I vehemently disagree with on just about everything, and many true believers in our town feel they are completely spreading false doctrine and on the verge of dabbling in what I would consider a form of witchcraft or Satantic or something to that effect. It's frustrating in my town to have the statement "I'm a Christian" be instantly met with "oh, do you go to (name of mega church)?" Sometimes I just want to say "No, I said I'm a Christian. Why would I go there?"

I can relate to this, however, I would say that problem is within yourself, not the church. I don't think you should feel guilty for not talking to people if you don't want to or don't feel comfortable. That's not the kind of thing God would want for you, and he certainly wouldn't condone anyone making you feel that way or shaming others for not chatting enough after church. So I hope you can embrace who you are in that respect, and realize that it's okay to be you. God loves you and made you who you are, social awkwardness and all. You can talk to people if you want, or don't if you don't want to. You don't need to feel guilty for being yourself.

Yes, exactly. I think that's one of the best benefits to small groups

Amen! That's very important. My church certainly isn't perfect either. There are things that annoy me about my pastors or about certain ways they do things, but that's okay. They can't please everybody, and they have good intentions, but they aren't perfect people.

I don't really understand how it does pertain to the issue, though. As I've explained very extentisively, the problems laid out in the article have nothing to do with different models of church, as you said. It's simply talking about issues within the church, as a whole. It's not comparing the two different models of church, so I don't really see how it supports your opinion. I'm not saying it refutes your opinion either, I'm just saying it seems kind of irrelevant to me on this topic.

Well, men and women have different life experiences. They have different biology, different tendencies due to their hormonal makeup... So it makes sense that they might sometimes benefit from different styles of teaching or subjects of teaching.

But I don't think it's really about the teaching itself, anyway. It's more about the discussion and community, I think, when people split groups up by gender. I think a group of women could probably do the same Bible study as a group of men, but they would probably get something different out of it and certain things might be more comfortable for women to open up about and discuss more deeply with just other women present. I don't think it's necessarily about the teaching, but about the discussion. Especially when it comes to sexual things. It's likely going to be more fruitful to split up into gendered groups, because a lot of women might not feel comfortable talking about their sexual habits in front of men, and vice versa.

But even if you are just listening to a teaching, there still might be a benefit to listening to a teaching tailored to you as a person rather than just a general lesson for everyone. The way a married woman, for example, is supposed to carry herself and live life and relate to God might look different than, say, the way a single man would, or even a single woman. It just seems logical to me that people would split into smaller, specific groups at times. Sometimes we want to ask the question "how am I supposed to love and serve my husband in the best way possible?" That's a different lesson than "how am I supposed to love and serve my wife in the best way possible."

 

Not sure there are any orthodox churches where I am and if there are they would be on the other side of my city. Another thing I struggle with is doubts so I don't know how I'd get on with going to church.

 

Some churches have sermons online, on their website. That might be an easy way to test out various ones without having to commit to actually going to them yet.

 

First, and i do not mean to offend any one. I do not consider the Catholic faith to be Christian. Yes, there are Catholics that are Christians. Take the very first commandment, Though shall have no other God but me. Then, what is all this on Mother Marry? Say 10 hail Marys and your are forgiven?
When Christ died on the cross, he became the bridge between God and us. His death, and our acceptance of what he did, gives us a direct link to Him. We do not need Marry to intercede for us.
The idea of saying X amount of hail Marrys to be forgiven is really salvation by works, not by faith. If you or any one else has questions about the Christian faith, feel free to DM Me.