@hope4healing Just a little additional information: My boyfriend just told me that his mother asked him if I would still have access to his devices. He replied that I would definitely have access and he's happy to give it to me. She then asked, "How does she show that she trusts you?" My boyfriend responded, "She does trust me. We talked about it yesterday too." His mother said, "If you're so limited with social media, I'm afraid you won't get many clients." My boyfriend replied, "Mom, that's just temporary. My number one priority is my recovery. And social media doesn't really work. So actively expanding my network works best. It could be a LinkedIn network, but I'm not doing it right now because I can't handle it." Firstly, granting access and freedom on social media doesn't equate to showing trust. It's not just about letting someone have access; it goes much deeper. Otherwise, it would be too easy. The fact that despite all those moments of dishonesty, all those conversations, I'm there for him, I think with him, don't deceive him, don't manipulate him, always being honest even in unpleasant situations, and so on. I mean, the intensive time and effort I invest in it, his mother doesn't invest anything in it. Well, if she can't see that, I have no words... She could motivate him by saying how well he's doing and supporting us instead of suppressing him further. And my boyfriend shouldn't immediately get defensive, but ask her why she made that remark and how it affects him. And ask if she can take that into account in the future and provide support. His parents are concerned about his work/job. They really want him to get clients and ideally have a stable job. His parents, well, or I should say, parents, have a few more years to go, it could be over in a few years, and then what? But their child is left with problems, work and money come and go... But his reboot, his recovery, is about turning your life around, even if you have a job, and then what? But well, that's just me.
While I obviously can't read your mind, I actually have experienced many of the things you're currently experiencing, multiple times, unfortunately. I realize everyone's circumstances are unique, but, at the same time, there are many aspects of dealing with a partner's PA that are very much the same. And, betrayal trauma is betrayal trauma...although it can affect people differently or to varying degrees, again, there are many similarities because the fundamentals are the same. As for the occasional inability to accurately organize your thoughts and feelings into words, I think that goes with the territory. BT brings about such a wide range of emotions, and sometimes they're all hitting you at the same time so it's bound to be overwhelming at times. I don't think it's strange at all. For me, I didn't really understand there could be the 2 vastly different 'fully present' vs. 'not present' until I'd experienced both scenarios, but once I had, I became very aware of whether he is or not. He was never fully present until years into our marriage due to the addiction so all that time I knew something felt 'off' but had no idea it could be so different. (I don't know if that makes any sense or not...?) She clearly doesn't understand the detrimental effects of addiction on one's life. Recovery isn't trapping him. It's setting him free from the addiction...that is what trapped him. Who said he's not allowed to do "anything"? I'm sorry you have to contend with someone so unsupportive. I know it can be frustrating...my mother-in-law actually hired a stripper once for my husband on his birthday and thought it was the greatest gift ever. Umm...toodle-loo! Yay! This is great news! I really think it will be beneficial for him and will help his recovery go more smoothly.
So my opinion on this mother/mother in law thing is you need to take some time and think about some boundaries and establish them before you get married. This is somewhat of a red flag too me. Though it sounds like your bf has the right mindset. If you get married your new husband leaves his parents and clings to his wife. You two become the only decision makers for your new family and home. These can be tough situations because the "in-laws" can be very controlling on all sorts of things. Like what they want you to do for holidays, how you raise your kids, where you decide to live, etc. It can become a big problem. Talking about this before hand to ensure you and your bf are on the same page is very important. This can be very hurtful. I've lived some of it where I'm deliberately left out of the planning process and decisions are made between my wife and her family. It really sucks beleive me. You also mentioned how your bfs mother pushed the importance of a certain outward image on him. This again sounds like a cause of some toxic shame for him. He was told since a kid that the way others perceived him is most important. Which gives incentive for these little white lies that he's been telling you. Coming to terms with that and realizing that honesty with you is the solution will really help him I think.
Yes, she's written several books, and all those I've read are good. If you're looking for books to help understand the betrayed SO's side of things, 2 more that I think are among the top (out of the 30 or so I've read about this topic) are Your Sexually Addicted Spouse by Barbara Steffens and Marsha Means as well as Intimate Deception by Dr. Sheri Keffer . They are written for the SO's, but they can also be very informative and helpful for the partners, too. As for books written for the partners, there are many good ones, but Out of the Doghouse by Dr. Rob Weiss and Worthy of Her Trust by Jason Martinkus stand out, IMO.
Another terrible night. He is a member of an esoteric school, and yesterday he casually dropped a bomb on me while we were talking about various things, including his best friend who has been searching for a partner to share life with. So, my boyfriend mentioned that he also had a past relationship with someone from that school. Naturally, I asked if he had been involved with anyone else from there. He replied, "Yes," and mentioned the name of that person. When I heard who it was, I felt that disappointment once again because this has happened before. That school means a lot to him, and it took him a great deal of effort to open up to people there, including me. I was invited to attend a meeting with his group about a month ago, where his ex was also present. Throughout the almost two years we've known each other, he never told me about this, not even before I joined the meeting. He kept this information from me because he was afraid I would leave him. Now, for the past few weeks, he has been in a different group. So, we have another problem now. The fact that he goes there and interacts with his ex through activities feels strange to me. It's not really about the fact that they were once a couple, but rather the fact that he withheld this information and I only found out later, after attending the meeting. He didn't take the initiative himself and didn't provide me with the reassurance that there are other options. Last night, he drove over to talk to me, and we had a conversation until late in the night. At that moment, I was considering stepping away from the whole situation. We will see each other later, and we're going to discuss it. But I'm doubting if there aren't deeper underlying problems. It seems like he's a pathological liar, seriously. It's as if he doesn't even realize he has these problems himself. @hope4healing
One thing that we know...addicts are liars. They lie to themselves and others, and lying is a necessary part of maintaining an addiction. If they were already seasoned liars prior to their addiction, I'm sure it makes it easier for them. But, even if they were a fairly honest person before addiction, sometimes addicts get so used to lying about addiction-related things that they start lying about other things as well. Some people are good at it, and some aren't as skilled, but most who are addicts seem to really master it, and it becomes so engrained in their daily lives that it's difficult to change. Whether or not your bf is a pathological liar, I don't know. He could be, but he could also just be a habitual liar, too. In either case, it's a huge problem because it gives you every reason to doubt anything he says because if he can lie to you about one thing, he can lie about anything else, too. It puts you in a very difficult place because you want so badly to believe him, but you also know, for your own sake, it's not safe to do so, About having other underlying problems, I believe that's likely true. Unfortunately, it's common for an addict to have other significant issues that aren't realized until much further down the road because there's so much focus on the addiction itself. Addiction is generally a symptom of something else which is why having professional help is often necessary to get to the bottom of it. And, yes, you could be absolutely right that he doesn't even know what all his own issues are. But, that doesn't make it any better for you...he's still a grown-up who's responsible for himself and his actions and choices. He's also the one who has to take the initiative to get his stuff figured out and fix it. I think this is the perfect time for you to step back and just see what he does from here. Like the article talked about that I linked a few posts ago said, let this be your moment of truth. He clearly knows that it's time to take charge and either do the right thing to get himself straight so your relationship can be saved or let you go. You deserve to be with someone who cares enough about you to do their part...to put you as a top priority over everything else, not someone who's willing to bend any rules for selfishness or convenience and then lie to you about it instead of facing the truth. I'm really sorry all of this is happening because I know you love him deeply and want this to work out. But, you can't continue putting forth more effort than he does for a problem that isn't yours. It will never get better that way. I tried for over 20 years. It just doesn't work. If you look out for you, you're smart enough and strong enough to get through this and be ok regardless of what he chooses to do for himself. Hugs.
Your BF can't be honest with you until he's able to be honest with himself. There's all sorts of causes and reasons for actions, and they can be analyzed forever. But that's not the point I don't think. The point is for him to have the capacity to be honest with you about something like this ex thing he has to realize why it matters to be honest. Based on what you said about this last bomb, he didn't directly lie? But did withhold this information for 2 years? This could mean absolutely nothing and he never gave it a thought, he could have no interest in his ex, or there could be bad intentions behind this. Again the scenarios are vast. Don't beat yourself up over this. This reminds me somewhat of issues I've had with my wife and her ex. Looking back I see I set zero boundaries, but allowed lots of boundaries to be set on me. I strongly suggest taking some time to think through what these are for you, and clearly, plainly and calmly expressing them to your BF. What can be hard in those moments is realizing when the boundaries that are set are violated. Like @hope4healing said all you really can do is sit back and observe. To try to offer something for you to think about for your BF I can say that I haven't always been able to be truthful, and it wasn't just because of PMO or any other ill intent, much of it is due to toxic shame. Another way to put that might be fear. Fear of being told he can't go if he said his ex went to this meeting. Fear of your reaction to him not paying full attention on the phone. I'm not saying that you need to change anything or tip toe around this. Just expressing a feeling he may be having. If he's like me, he wants peoples approval, and wants people thinking they are "good". Sometimes those lies are all about getting that from others, because we can feel uncomfortable around admitting to something that causes us to feel disapproved or "bad". For me I've found it helps me a lot when I am free to say the truth and have someone accept it without that feeling, I also had to accept that I'm perfectly ok if I'm not always approved of. I was a middle child, in a busy home, There were older kids that could take care of themselves, and younger that needed my parents attention, I was asked to grow up fast, looking back I can see I was conditioned to suppress my needs, to say I was OK even when I wasn't just to keep the family unit functioning. I almost felt as though I was a hindrance if I cried out for something, because I was "waking my siblings" or "my parents were on the phone". Again, I'm not making any excuses, I'm just hoping to offer you something to think about that might offer you something to consider. Our exact life experiences are all different, but there are many similarities in how we cope and react with them. Maybe your bf is a compulsive liar, maybe he strongly struggles with shame. Unfortunately all you can do is offer support, he'll have to do the work to deal with it.
This is exactly what he told me. It had nothing to do with his ex, but rather the fact that if I knew about it, I wouldn't want him to go to the meeting anymore. He was afraid of my reaction, afraid of ruining our relationship and losing me, and feeling ashamed. Because we had some intense conversations and I reacted strongly, it made him feel like he couldn't be open about it and he became fearful. I recognize many things you mention in your message that you have in common with my BF. At the beginning of our relationship, he was really honest about everything. It was refreshing that he shared his porn addiction and answered all my questions. Many people don't talk about it and keep it hidden, and women often find out after years, which is terrible. I really appreciated that he had disclosed it even before we started dating. Before becoming intimate, I had made it clear that porn couldn't be a part of our relationship. At that time, he didn't fully grasp the seriousness of the problem, but he was trying to cut back and was open about how often he engaged in it. He believed he could resolve it and quit. It seemed like progress, but a few months later, I discovered that he had watched porn again, and I felt angry, betrayed, and unsure how to handle it. I confronted him strongly, and I even called him a loser and said other hurtful things. This happened three times, with the last incident being three months ago. Finally, he recognized the severity of the problem and sought help, which is how our journey towards recovery began. This provides some background information. Yesterday, we had conversations, and he revealed that he was afraid of losing me if he had told me about his relapses. I asked him, "But not telling me only makes it worse." He admitted that I was right, but in those moments, he didn't think of the consequences. He thought I would confront him again, have a negative view of him, and ultimately leave him. He has an autistic younger brother who requires a lot of attention. All the attention went to his brother, and my boyfriend never received the attention he should have from his parents. He also mentioned that his upbringing didn't teach him how to express emotions because the focus was on his brother. Whether he felt good or bad, it wasn't acknowledged. When he was 14, he stumbled upon porn, and it became his example. His mother was aware of it but believed it was something boys just did and that it was somewhat normal, so she didn't pay much attention to it. Essentially, it was justified. Over the years, this decision ruined his life. Whenever he felt down, he had an urge to turn to porn. It became his way of avoiding emotions and solving problems. Unfortunately, it spiraled out of control, and porn took over his life. During his childhood, it was determined that he had a fear of failure, although it has improved somewhat now. He also underwent therapy in the past. Additionally, he fell victim to a significant scam, where people took advantage of him, primarily for a passport. He was too naive to see it, as he confessed. He struggles with saying no because he's afraid people will have a negative opinion of him. Sometimes, he finds it difficult to set his own boundaries. Fortunately, he is making progress in this area and it's becoming easier for him step by step. And so on. Furthermore, my boyfriend is a person with a heart in the right place... maybe too good and too kind for the world. Seriously, just like my little brother and my best friend, I see certain similarities in people who have fear of failure, who strive for perfection in everything they do.
He loses you either way unless you decide to compromise your boundaries and let him get away with it which ultimately hurts you and the relationship That's the reality he needs to be honest with himself about. To me this all supports the fact that he has a nice guy worldview. That if he looks "nice" his needs will be met, and have a problem free life. This obviously is not a realistic view, but it's the one many like me grew up developing. The truth is, they are not reasons to behave as you've illustrated with deceit and acting out with PMO etc. And he needs to realize that and learn to accept himself, not fear rejection, be comfortable in times of confrontation, learn his needs are important, that he is not bad for expressing them, and most importantly do what's RIGHT. He has to start working on it, for me it has taken quite a bit of time practicing it. I struggle with it still. My wife will say something in a disappointing tone, and I instantly want to cover my tracks, even though I'm not doing anything wrong, it's just not what she would "prefer" I'm doing in that moment. Similar to your looking out the window lie he told. We just have to get over those issues and just be honest. It takes time to do and just isn't natural at least for me. But I think I'm getting better. Admitting that these "nice guy" issues exist are still not a good excuse for the lying. Once he fully sees that and realizes why his natural reaction is to do it. I expect things will get better. I think he'll feel more at peace about things. If not nothing probably will change, and I hope that's not the case. Again I highly suggest the book "No More Mr Nice Guy". It's quite direct and covers a lot of topics, and unless the reader is ready it might be hard to even process. But there is lots of good information, exercises, and real life examples that can really help work through toxic shame and fear. I listened to it on YouTube, the entire audio book is on there. I've listened to it about 10 times, and I still hear new parts that apply to me each time I listen that I missed the time before. The author also suggests the partner read it as well so it might be worth checking out for you too.
One lie that I repeatedly told myself during my addiction is that things would be different after... Fill in the blank. That I would no longer need PMO. Because the void it filled would be filled with something I thought was better. Like when I was in a serious relationship, when we got married, when we didn't live 2 hours away anymore. Each time though nothing really changed, I still used PMO to cope just in different ways than before. There's always tough parts of life, and that was a sure fire way to feel better. I seriously thought I could just turn the switch off. Because truly I am extremely attracted to my wife. What I didn't realize was the compulsive part of the addiction has so engrained that I started using it to cope with normal issues that people have while learning to live with a person all the time. There's all those natural growing pains of a relationship that I think I screwed up because of my issues. This is something maybe your bf has already lived and finally understands like I do. That this thing doesn't just go away on its own and there's more to it than just sexuality. Feel free to share all this with your bf, I hope it gives you some points worth talking through.
@Warfman & @YourLocalClown reading both of your posts it made me think of a book I read recently that I found helpful, at least from the perspective of having issues from childhood and emotional neglect. It's called Running on Empty by Jonice Webb. The book is not about pmo issues, I read it because in dealing with my betrayal trauma issues I really struggle with very negative self imposed thoughts. I stumbled across a blog or podcast or something that referenced the book and I found it really helpful to at least connect why I can't seem to undo some of the feelings I have. Both of what you shared about childhoods caused me to recall it.
@YourLocalClown I posted this on another thread and thought of you and your bf while I started listening to it again. Dr John has been a huge help for me. Even more than just PMO. If your bf felt like me this might be worth sharing with him.
And it's true, I really want him to get through this, not giving any room for PMO, reminding him of it. The reason I do this is that we're progressing further in the process, and I'm afraid he might have a relapse. At that moment, I get that terrible feeling again and lose all hope. To prevent that, I try to immerse myself completely, as if it seems like I want it more than he does. That's not healthy. today, he called me and told me that three months ago, before that unpleasant moment we had (refer to my first post in this thread) when we started the reboot, he agreed to do a favor for someone he knows. He was asked to take care of their cat while they are on vacation. He agreed to do it three months ago, and when I heard about it, I thought, "Not again." Just last week, we had a discussion where I asked him openly if there was anything else he could tell me about everything. He said there was nothing else he could recall. And yesterday he told me that he was asked by that guy if he could take care of his cat (but my BF had already said yes to that three months ago). So I spent almost three-quarters of an hour brainstorming with him that he should consider the example in March with that cat and the pet-sitting and whether it would be a good idea. Then he made a comment that he was getting a little frustrated because I tell him what he should do, which made him want to do even more, like taking care of the cat. But he had already made that choice three months ago. I felt a bit stupid because I had put in so much effort to think along with him when the decision had already been made. I realize that this behavior is not healthy, and it says more about him as a person.. Back in March earlier this year, he did the same favor, but it was too much for him to handle. My BF has his own cat that requires attention, and he had his work commitments and us, of course. As a result, I stayed at his place for a few days to take care of his cat while he stayed at the other person's house. The worst part was that he was overwhelmed and couldn't keep up with everything. He forgot to feed the cat, had to shuttle back and forth to give his own cat attention, and on the last day, he had to clean the house (kitchen, bedding, litter box, etc.) but forgot about it until the person was almost returning home. The man was surprised to find the house in a mess. We discussed it back then as well. He told me he didn't dare to tell me earlier because he thought I would get angry and tell him not to do it. Just now, he mustered up the courage to call and tell me that he will be taking care of the cat for nine days. A few days at that person's house and a few days of commuting (a 20-minute drive). I reacted in a certain way, reminding him of his previous struggles and how he's making things difficult for himself despite having that prior experience. I also mentioned that he had withheld information in the past few days, and now he's doing it again, saying one thing but doing another. As I said these things, he felt punished, and I could sense that he was internalizing the thought, "See, she's mad, just as I thought (etc.)," making him hesitant to be open with me. Also because he's caught up in a reboot and now adding an extra burden, turning someone else's problem into his own problem and even sacrificing his own side, it says something about his people-pleasing behavior. It's not smart to do so. He asked if I could brainstorm options with him so that he could discuss things with the man about the cat, but it was already too late because he had already said yes. When I heard about it, I felt disappointed, not taken seriously, and had an uncomfortable feeling in my throat. Then, during the conversation, many things were going through my mind, not emotions or anything like that, but rather the fact that I can't solve HIS problem. I already say so many things, help him literally get through it, try to think along with him, but it doesn't solve the problem. It keeps going in circles, the fact that I do and say all these things doesn't immediately bring about a change in things. Just like this example with the cat... It's actually so simple, yet it's being blown out of proportion. My boyfriend should prioritize it and work on resolving this problem from its roots, give it his all. It's his responsibility to provide me with safety in our relationship. He really needs to genuinely appreciate from the depths of his heart that I'm there for him and helping him, he needs to realize that. And the actions he takes to heal himself should come from within him, even without me having to push him towards it… @hope4healing
So do you think that this cat issue is "THE" issue? I take care of thousands of animals daily it's quite amazing how low maintenance they really can be. Your post has me thinking there's lots of anxiety and stress your bf is struggling through. But helping with the cat situation is getting all the blame for it. Something I find that's true for everyone really but especially me as a recovering p addict is that initially I didn't have much emotional energy for anything else that myself. Doing things for others made me feel that stress because in those moments it exposed that I was in survival mode with anxiety and stress. I actually had to deal with this before I was successful in abstaining from PMO for longer than a couple weeks. Slowly working through all that though and coming more at peace with it I found that I was able to extend my energy to others more and more, it was all the fact that anxiety can just cripple you emotionally and physically. Typically I think we spend zero time on p addiction and anxiety when that's where I had to start! And until those things were dealt with I had little energy to offer others. It can all come to a tipping point as soon as we melt down and then it's all the because of the neighbors Cat, and if it wasn't for that everything would be normal. I stumbled through that for quite a few years before I realized I was looking at symptoms of the problem and not the actual problem which was that I suffered from anxiety. I played a game of elimination trying to remove things that I thought were the problem, and that it would solve things. I finally realized that I needed to address anxiety in general because it is a natural part of life. "Redefining Anxiety" by John Delony really helped me. And there's lots of YouTube clips about anxiety from callers on his show. I like his take because he struggled with anxiety really bad and I related to him. Sorry if I'm off base there, but hopefully that is helpful.
I'm new here. What does PMO mean? Did you end up getting your act together for her? I'm curious because I kicked out my man 7 weeks ago, after 10 years sexless due to porn. It always felt like he cared more about porn than me, and I have kicked him out many times over the years, but this time is different. I don't respond to his texts.
I wouldn't be able to make such effort - as regards time and financially. I need to deal with my addiction on my own by using this forum, reading books on nofap and battling with it every day on my own.
Looks like @Warfman answered you about pmo so I’ll answer the rest. We haven’t ever had sexless marriage just emotionally disconnected. I have sex with her whenever she wants. But because I misused sex to soothe myself instead of connecting emotionally, I have decided to just do it on her terms. We have sex when she wants and I never say no. I don’t masturbate anymore. I haven’t had an orgasm without her in 8.5 yrs. I can easily go a month without sex if she hasn’t felt like initiating. She is ok with me indicating I’m interested, but doesn’t like it directly asked for. She prefers me to send a sexy pic or something. And if the answer is no, well part of recovery is managing rejection like an adult. I’ve learned to manage my own emotions. The biggest problem between us is that I want emotional connection and she doesn’t.
Meetings are free. Counseling can get quite expensive, but Dr. Skinner, Weiss, and Mays have tons of free counseling resources and classes.Recovery is a lot of work and very time consuming. But so is addiction , addicts always seem to find the time to act out. Until my husband got serious and started putting in the time and effort, he could only get a few months clean. If you can’t make the effort, then you won’t get into recovery.
I might not have minded the porn if he was satisfying my needs, but he won't. Imagine going around for all these years thinking you're not even worth a f*ck? He pays money to femdom whores who hate men. Actually I think he hates women, he only uses them, myself included. I've often yelled at him that I'm not his mother. I never wanted to have my needs met elsewhere, that would be disrespectful to myself, him, the other person, and all relationships. It would make him redundant. I have 4 more hours to wait for my counselor. I turned into a hoarder and that is what she is for. Funny, before he was in my life I'd spring and fall clean every year. Now I have to walk through mazes to get through my house. Kitchen and bathrooms are clean, but very cluttered and messy, there are even dead animals in here and I can't deal with it. Men should know how bad this disgusting habit can break a person.
