Why doesn't Nofap(or anyone) take a clear stand on possible dangers of masturbation?

Discussion in 'NoFap Technical Support' started by Ray Breslin, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Ray Breslin

    Ray Breslin Guest

    First of all, let me make it clear. Nofap.com is probably the best forum i have ever been on and Mr.Alexander Rhodes has done great work by making it. Of all the forums i have ever been on, nowhere have i seen more empathy and understanding of one other. I hope that never changes.

    My question, is an honest question and in no way meant to be accusatory or blaming to anyone,esecially not Nofap.com/Mr.Rhodes.

    Over and over again i and am sure many others, have come across hundreds (or thousands) of guys suffering from severe effects due to overmasturbation. This issue is related to porn but is way bigger then porn. The effects of overmasturbation are so severe and so so physical,they cannot be all logically related to porn at all. I don't know if my story matters, but i personally started suffering from overmasturbation effects way before i got into porn.

    I use the term overmasturbation repeatedly because there is no clear distinction when you start feeling physical impacts,commonly called sexual exhaustion (probably after a lot of fapping(2-3 times a day) for 2-3 years commonly) and as with a lot of people,not at all. This does not mean that they are invulnerable to its effects though.

    Anyway getting back to the topic,
    My point is that over and over again there are doctors,psychologists,peers encouraging us to fap without feeling guilty and state that it has no bad effects, on the contrary is healthy and beneficial. This is how most guys, who just hit puberty and discovered masturbation are told and consequently, some of them end up sexually exhausting themselves, before even they have really been with a real person and ventured out into the real world.


    I am aware that masturbation is a part of growing up, for a person to discover their sexuality in a healthy manner. All i am saying is that shouldn't the notion "Masturbation is completely healthy and beneficial to health" be changed and a more realistic "Masturbation is healthy within certain limits" and making aware that there is a certain limit after which it can debilitating and seriously impact one's health be there?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2016
  2. Chef Boy

    Chef Boy Fapstronaut

    I completely agree and anyone who reads my posts will know I've been preaching this for a long time. I'd take it a step further and say masturbation is never healthy, even in moderation. It's had a far bigger negative impact on me than pornography alone and I'm thankful that I've sussed this while I'm still young.

    The question you pose is a good one and only Alex can answer it. I think anti-masturbation has been avoided due to the lack of clarity on the subject. It's something of a grey area.

    Anyway, great post.
     
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  3. Brooklyn Jerry69

    Brooklyn Jerry69 Fapstronaut

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    I guess it not PC to tell us not to JO anymore. I am sure years ago when we were told it would cause us to go blind or give us hairy palms it was meant to warn the dangers of excessive masturbation. Sort of like when they told us smoking would stunt our growth. Now most are told if it feels good do it, and not to deny ourselves of pleasure. I say to much of anything is not good .
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  4. Ray Breslin

    Ray Breslin Guest

    In my opinion,its bigger than "too much of anything is not good". Saying that seems dismissive. The effects of overmasturbation can last for months or years and are really severe. Its not anything that can be fixed in a day or a week. Also, how can one realize they have been masturbating too much until its already happened? The problem at hand is not that "anything in excess is bad", its that everywhere everyone is saying that "masturbation is completely healthy" as if it cannot ever be harmful . No one says "Alcohol is completely healthy" or "Smoking is completely healthy". All i am talking about is awareness. Also each day a dozen studies come out a day claiming how a wank a day keeps the doctor away.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016
  5. KSharp

    KSharp Fapstronaut

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    I like the distinction about over-masturbation vs. regular masturbation. I think that tells a third of the story right there. Another third is the question of how much is over-masturbation. The answer is usually based on whether there are detrimental affects on ones life (problems with work, sexual performance, emotional withdrawal, losing interest in real relationships -- especially romantic ones with real people).

    The last third, though, has to do with porn, especially Internet porn and all the weird behavior that creates. That's a huge basket of funky, insane and surprising behavior. Internet porn is what pushed me into over-masturbation for sure. Before 1995, a "normal" jerk off session lasted 5 - 10 minutes. But with online porn you learn you can sustain yourself for hours.

    I don't think a lot of "sex experts" and psychologists realize yet the extent of behavioral change we're talking about. What we're doing here at NoFap and other places is basically opening up the conversation. It will take some time though because they're supposedly experts.

    That said, i think NoFap could step up and talk definitively about over-masturbation along with the problem of pornography in general. And, truth be told, it's probably true that we should all ponder the question of masturbation and porn when you're in a relationship. My answer after fucking up for 25+ years is I gotta stop. I love my wife too much. ED sucks. But so does letting my lust wander.
     
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  6. Ikindaknew

    Ikindaknew Fapstronaut

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    I think that the "no masturbation" position is a little restrictive and has a religious flavor FOR SOME PEOPLE. So i you adopt that stance, its an endless fight to justify why. Its would be a pain I guess. "Fapping is ok" was just to remove the feeling of guild/sin from people. Making people feeling normal.

    Masturbation was bad for me. It started as soon as I managed to ejac and I binged on it. Then PMO came up when the high speed internet became available. I overdid it. I developed PIED.

    Masturbation is bad for me, getting me tired all the time and such. I now keep my seeds for real sex with the wife. I have better energy now. Better sex life.

    I agree that a reboot should include no masturbation for people with a sexual partner. For singles, well I don't want to talk for them, they are in a different situation then me.
    And if the singles want to stop fapping too, on top of quitting porn, they are possibly doing the best move.
     
  7. Golgo 13

    Golgo 13 Fapstronaut

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    Masturbation is not worse then pornography. Porn is responsible for PIED, Social Anxiety, and BRAIN FOG.
    Over-Masturbation will lead to desensitization.
    Pornography is fundamentally different then masturbation.
     
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  8. EarthDragon

    EarthDragon Fapstronaut

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    And is that a bad thing inherently? It really seems like you either abstain altogether, or you're back at full blown PMO in a short amount of time. Also, hopefully no one ditches out commands against murder just because "Thou shall not kill." is in the Bible and thus has religious flavor.

    If we conlcude that mastrubation is bad, and will always will be, we have to say it, religious tones or not.
     
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  9. Ikindaknew

    Ikindaknew Fapstronaut

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    True. But "command" against murder is universally recognized and accepted. The possible religious flavor about "don't touch yourself" is embraced by some and rejected by others, thus creating two separate crowd. If you look at the NoFap community, taking that stance on masturbation could possibly limit the amount of subscriber and/or give the community a "change of direction" one way of another.

    I guess that its all about the the original question about "why isn't there an clear stand against M on NoFap". The rest is just assumptions as to why there isn't such stand.

    I assume that the reason is simply to be welcoming both options.
    @alexander , what's your take reference the thread title?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
  10. Ray Breslin

    Ray Breslin Guest

    Ah, yes i have seen this before. I even talked about overmasturbation effects/sexual exhaustion on yourbrainrebalanced.com which is the forum for ybop. It was already being discussed before i got there and i presented my observations and opinions like everyone else. Gary Wilson disagreed. I and some others disagreed with him. I agree that he happens to be sort of the foremost authority on PORN but masturbation is an issue that is seperate and related to porn at the same time. I say this because i started suffering from overmasturbation effects and severely might i add ,an year before i even got into porn. I have come across hundreds of guys,if not thousands that are suffering from the same effects as me ,which i found out when i was trying to find out what was happening or had happened to me once i started feeling overmasturbation effects. I was thinking of compiling a long post with several guys testimonies on how overmasturbation/sexual exhaustion affects you but lack the time.

    I am not against masturbation,nor i have any religion related ideas to it. There is a distinction between masturbation and overmasturbation. As for the effects, it will surprise you what overmasturbation effects can do. I may be saying this since i have only some porn bad effects till now which are intense enough but i have received the full blast from overmasturbation and i must say overmasturbation effects are intensely physical and very tough to deal with . Weak memory,focus, feeling lazy and weak all the time,no strength,haggard face and poor skin, and it keeps getting worse if you dont stop masturbating like thinner and battered looking weiner, dandruffy,split ended-dry hair,possibly hair loss,back pain and poor posture. Not to mention the inner effects on one's mind.

    I dont have scientific evidence to support this but so didn't any guy complaining from PIED 20 years ago at the dawn of high speed internet porn. I can send you to links of a lot of guys telling about the same effects though.;)

    The problem is porn is plain ethically wrong and only now, has scientific backing so everyone is ready to discuss about its harmful effect and agrees on it, but if you open up debate that too much masturbation i.e overmasturbation can be harmful people are opposed to it because they think their favourite pastime just cannot be bad.

    Think about it, a guy who must be suffering from PIED in the late 1990's must be having a hard time trying to convince anyone that it is real,same thing is happening for overmasturbation now:rolleyes:.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2016
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  11. Celestine

    Celestine Fapstronaut

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    Depends on what you masturbate to as well, right?

    Let's say you've spent the last decade wanking to porn, and then you stop watching it. As you're so accustomed to masturbating over fetish X, you could carry this on into your fantasy, rather than masturbate to more vanilla and realistic stuff.

    I'll say that porn-fantasy is probably better for everyone than porn itself. For one, you just don't drown your brain in endless novelty in quite the same way. And secondly, you're not creating demand for a business that is essentially filmed prostitution. But perhaps by masturbating to porn-fantasy, you're not really healing your libido either. You're continuing to reinforce the association between orgasm and fetish X. So although you're not making things worse per se, you're not exactly breaking the conditioning that 10 years of porn instilled upon you.

    What I would therefore propose based on these assumptions is that anyone coming out of a porn addiction, who finds themselves masturbating to porn fantasy, should also take a break from masturbation too. See if the porn fantasy drops away, and see if you become more interested in real sex. It's an interesting exercise in willpower if nothing else.

    Really gents, that's mostly speculation based on some loose experiences I've had. My urges seem to become more vanilla the longer the streak, which is promising. The only way you'll have closure on this is to try a hardmode challenge and see for yourself. Perhaps there's just not enough data yet to conclude. You could exchange links between yourselves for days and days that argue the pros / cons of masturbating, and reach no resolution. Be a pioneer and search for yourself, that's my advice.

    I have no comments on erectile dysfunction + masturbation. :^)
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
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  12. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    My position is clear, No PMO, No MO, No P, No P-Subs, No Edging, No Fantasizing, No objectifying, No ogling
     
  13. Wilhelm II

    Wilhelm II Fapstronaut

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    I am a newcommer here, joined today and even discovered NoFap just a couple of days ago. It is possible I have misunderstood, but I must say I have some problems with understanding the question in the headline. I mean: Isn´t "NoFap" supposed to mean "No mastrubation"?

    And well, I hardly think it is possible to consider porn and mastrubation separatedly. Even though the one can exist without the other for a while, they are parts of a whole. To "enjoy" porn is to mastrubate to it, simultanously or afterwards. To mastrubate is to live out sexual imagination in one´s mind, and it is mainly fed by porn. Porn can even be defined as whatever fuels sexual imagination in one´s mind.
     
  14. Ikindaknew

    Ikindaknew Fapstronaut

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    Well, yes.
    But most are fighting the PMO Porn+masturbation until orgasm. Fap to porn. some people dont ejac, they are "edging". Edging to porn is like masturbating to porn, only there is not orgasm.

    Both porn and masturbation have negative side effects. People choose what they care to stop if they feel like getting better.
     
  15. Physicist

    Physicist Fapstronaut

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    Make love not masturbation.

    I will have to add to this thread later. Masturbation isn't necessary dangerous. Its always been practiced. In moderation it is dangerous, you have to do it once every 7 days or once every 14 days to actually make it mean something and you don't desensitise yourself.
     
  16. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    We actually don't know how long MO has been practiced. It could have just been created recently. Maybe last 80 years, imo
     
  17. Physicist

    Physicist Fapstronaut

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    That doesnt make sense.

    Given we have reproduced for millions of year, don't you think it took one caveman to touching his erect penis one morning to go "hmm this feels good".
     
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  18. JesusGreen

    JesusGreen Fapstronaut

    My personal take on it all, and before I start I'd like to add the disclaimer that this is only MY view and doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else - everyone's relationship with PMO is different. So, anyway, let's get to it.

    P, M, and O, all cause different problems, and create their hold on us in different ways. So let's look at them each individually.

    P
    P is one I think most of us can agree can rarely if ever have a positive side to it. It is purely there to fuel instant gratification. Now there might be a few exceptions to this rule - say for example your wife/husband or girlfriend/boyfriend and you were going to be separated by a long distance due to work or other circumstances, then self-made videos by either/both of you might help play a part in maintaining the intimacy between you, and I would argue that such videos are still "P", albeit a much less sinister form - but that's a very different kettle of fish to going on a P site and looking at paid (and often manipulated) actors.

    P, like any other form of visual media, involves a lot of acted scenes and as such is often lacking in the realism department, causing unrealistic expectations in people, and creating a need for more and more extreme kinks and fetishes because you're so used to seeing crazy out of the ordinary stuff that ordinary ceases to interest you any more. Yes there is also amateur P, and I'd argue that amateur P is by FAR the lesser of two evils, but even with amateur P it still has a whole host of its own problems.

    Perhaps the biggest threat of P to people these days is the fact that it is confusing our innate drive for sex. In the past, that drive would push us to seek partners, form relationships, and have genuine intercourse. Now that same drive has been rewired by the easy availability of P, to simply head to our favourite P site and get off. This forces us into isolation, and wires avoidance of socialising into us at a deep level. I suspect P played a bigger part in how many people are isolating themselves and suffering from social anxiety these days than the introduction of the internet itself did.

    We are like rats that have been trained to eat the poisonous pellets rather than the healthy edible ones, simply because they also came with that dopamine fix that wired it into our reward circuitry. Avoidance of P can allow your brain to reconstruct its natural sex drive and desire for partnership.

    M
    M is a weird one. I think M without O, in of itself, is probably innately the least harmful of the unholy trinity of PMO. The negative effects it has are more in the ability for it to be habit forming in of itself, but once the habit is built, it is usually the P or O surrounding it that then go on to cause the harmful effects.

    It would be unwise however to let us assume based on what I just said that M is fine as long as we avoid P and O. Why? Well, let's be honest with ourselves here. What do you want when you M? Simple, you want that eventual O. You might tell yourself "just a little M then I'll stop", but any activity that causes constant dopamine hits produces an effect of simply chasing and chasing, as more dopamine is released. Dopamine itself, then lowers your inhibitions, and eventually you reach a level of dopaminergic stimulation where your desire not to O has been outweighed by the desire for greater stimulation, and bam, you're now doing the full PMO shebang.

    Anyone here who has ever been unfortunate enough to have any sort of stimulant habit, will know just as I did, how those particular dopamine highs work. It's like running up a never-ending staircase, certain that the next step will be the top, only to see the staircase extend up by another step with each step you take. Deep down you know if you keep running you'll just eventually tire out and it'll have all been for nothing, but you crave the top of the staircase so deeply that you keep going anyway. With M, there's an interesting twist to this. Rather than running up the staircase indefinitely, eventually one of the steps gives out beneath you, and sends you hurtling down to the ground in a crash. That falling step, is our other little friend.. O.

    O
    Perhaps the least understood of the three is O. I mean, if O is bad, then why are we NoFap and not just a celibacy site? Is sex bad too? What is the deal with this enigma that we call O? Well, let's get down to that.

    If you're familiar with the film Trainspotting, you may recall the scene with Renton sinking into the floor after he overdoses on Heroin, while "Perfect Day" by Lou Reed plays. Some of you may have felt a familiar tingle, a recognition of sorts, you may have never taken heroin, but there's something oddly familiar about that collapse into warm bliss isn't there? Well you wouldn't be wrong. O, on it's completion, causes a release of beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin, like heroin, is an opiate, albeit one naturally produced inside the brain, rather than introduced externally as a drug.

    The fact that we can still feel that temporary moment of bliss from O, even after decades of PMO, is a testament to how strong an opiate it is too. I can tell you from past addiction to opiates, that getting that kind of level a hit normally requires significant and regular increases in dosage, and yet with PMO, it remains relatively steady even after a long habit. To top it off, not only is it strong, but it is fleeting. While someone may feel good for hours after certain opiate drugs, Beta-endorphin starts off giving you 5-10 minutes of bliss, and that time gradually decreases until it's a mere few seconds after your PMO habit becomes severe.

    Although many of us here, myself included, have also had drug issues in the past - I expect most people here on the other hand, would turn their noses up immediately at the idea of ever touching something like heroin. Yet, they're exposing themselves to a similar influence day by day with their PMO habits. Gets you thinking doesn't it? It all depends on how a particular fix or vice is packaged to whether we can convince ourselves it's okay to do - give something the right packaging, and we'll be at it all day every day.

    So perhaps we can learn something about O by looking at its exogenous (external, i.e. drug based) analogues in opiates. What is it that makes them so alluring and addictive? Well for me at the time, it was partly their effects profile. Both O, and opiates, are relatively harm free IF taken RARELY and at an appropriate measure for your individual body so as not to be in excess. As a result, after a few experiences, you begin to wonder what all the fuss is about, you see no negatives, and so that rarely suddenly becomes infrequently. Infrequently becomes 2-3 times a week, and then every day. Everything seems to go swimmingly at first and you laugh at all those people who warned you about how addictive it was.. then, one day, you run out, or perhaps you decide to take a break, and the cold sweats, flu like symptoms, nausea, pain.. they all hit, and suddenly you realise, the addiction isn't an overnight sensation, it's a slow burner.. but once it's there, getting out is going to be like escaping from maximum security prison - not easy.

    While withdrawal from O is not quite as physical or rough as withdrawal from opiate drugs, the psychological aspect of the habit is one that is tough to break, and it forms in a similar manner. You see that the occasional O isn't causing problems when you first begin to MO early in life - so you up the frequency gradually, and it's only once you've been doing it daily for a long time, that you suddenly realise the hold it has over you.

    Now does this mean we should never take opiates? Well recreationally, I'd argue yes - but, they also have their uses. If you break your leg, it makes sense to take an opiate based painkiller prescribed by your doctor for a short period. A similar principle applies here to O. O has it's place, in sex with a partner for the purpose of procreation. Aside from that, as I mentioned before, it is not one O that causes problems, it is frequent repetition of the O, so O in regular sex too is not out of place, so long as it is not to excess.

    O in moderation is fine, O to excess causes sexual exhaustion, and sexual exhaustion is a tough burden to carry, especially if you're a man, for the reasons I'll discuss below:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914589

    In the above linked study, you'll see that sexual exhaustion is causing decreased expression of androgen receptors in certain parts of the brain. Androgen receptors are where the male sex hormones, like testosterone (T), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), etc bind. These hormones are responsible for your libido, for your desire to socialise, for feeling dominant, energised, and strong, for building muscle and for your growth during puberty. For a man these hormones are a core part of your being, and by decreasing the expression of the receptors to which they can bind, frequent O is taking away your ability to truly be the best man you can be.

    -----

    So now that we've broken down all three parts of the unholy trinity. What do we actually do about them?

    The solution is education. Exposure to PMO is unavoidable in today's society and unless you're locked away somewhere with restricted access to computers and technology, you're going to come across it, try it, like it. So it is important to educate people in depth about it. It's ironic that in my own schooling, sex education was part of the same class as our education surrounding drugs and their dangers. In the same class that we were told how evil and dangerous all these drugs were, we were told that masturbation is healthy and something we should all be doing regularly. Double standards much?

    It is understandable where such advice comes from. We're still only at the beginning of discovering the negative effects that P and sexual exhaustion from frequent MO have on us. We've also seen things like MO reducing blood pressure and such, which have been more well established for a longer time, and so it's only natural that a lot of people are still stuck in the belief that it's healthy and good for you. Furthermore, I think a large part of it comes from the idea that by exploring MO, and exploring P, teens are now able to learn about sex with a few less "awkward talks". This allows the teachers and parents a more hands off approach, and so the potential implications are just swept under the rug.

    What we need is for teens to be taught about addiction not just from a standpoint of "x and y drugs are addictive", but as the entire dopamine based reward system and how ANY activity, when indulged in too frequently, wires itself into a habit, and those seemingly innocent things can suddenly become afflictions.

    There needs to be education about pleasure, and how pleasure in itself is a delicate balance. Not enough pleasure, and one will find themselves not enjoying their life to the fullest. Just the right amount, and life continues smoothly. Too much, and those pleasurable stimuli suddenly become more important to you than the other areas of your life, causing an imbalance, and making you suddenly veer into obsession over particular activities.

    I don't think we should tell kids it's wrong to PMO, just as I don't think we should tell people not to drink. If someone can maintain themselves in moderation, then they should be free to - but, we do need to give them all the available information, and let them make that decision for themselves. If I'd known about all the issues of PMO as a teen, I perhaps wouldn't have made it a part of my daily life.

    Hell, perhaps the easiest thing to do, for guys in particular, would just be to remind them that frequent O will affect their androgen system. As a male teen going through puberty, you want the broad shoulders, the deep voice, the height - and testosterone plays its part in all of those, so by indulging in O too frequently, you could be lowering your growth potential.. and everyone only goes through puberty once, so you never get that chance again. I know if I'd been told my voice would be deeper, my shoulders would be broader, and I'd perhaps be a couple inches taller if I avoided PMO until I was an adult, I'd have avoided it without a second thought.

    Just some food for thought. Hope y'all don't mind the wall of text ;)
     
  19. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    No, I simply do not agree that it has always been practiced. If it has, I believe it to be the behavior of such a underdeveloped individual and as with slaughtering animals, racism, etc. we should have evolved past it by now.

    You can say that you asume cavemen did this and that all you want, but we have no proof because none of us were there. I just simply stated my opinion. If you disagree, that is fine, but don't immediately jump to the conclusion that masturbation has always been practiced just because someone told you that or you read it somewhere.

    We simply do not know.
     
  20. Physicist

    Physicist Fapstronaut

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    Not sure why you don't think that. This simple wikipedia article should open you up to the idea and far back about how far back masturbation existed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_masturbation

    Even applies to females in the early 1800s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoridectomy

    Just because none of us were "there", doesn't mean there isn't evidence to indicate that it has been practiced. There is no assuming here. That 80 year number was assuming.

    For one thing, masturbation has existed far more than 80 years ago. Did you know that Kelloggs cereal was originally invented to "cure" masturbation and that the earliest psychiatric diagnostic and statistical manual considered masturbation to be a mental disorder? This is just around the 1940s too.

    As for slaughtering animals (I presume you mean for food), it has happened for more than 10,000 years before the introduction of agriculture. Ancestors lived off hunting.

    To say masturbation is a behaviour of an underdeveloped individual would be saying the same of sex. Then it would be saying we would have evolved past sex too. If that ever happened, we would have been extinct.

    I know we are pro NoFap but masturbation isn't necessarily a animalistic act. If it were only 80 years then I doubt it would have spread to 99% percentage of the male population and some 70% of the female population.
     

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