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Why do so many heterosexual Men suffer from ''HOCD''

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Woodland-Soul, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Of course there are standard criterias to diagnose several forms and stages of alcoholism, especially because many alcoholics are in total denial of it, before they accept their problem finally. Same as there are criterias for any personality disorders or other mental illness. And people do not diagnose those on themselve by Dr. Google, like they also would not diagnose themselve or their family members cancer, migrane or diabetes. Or, well of course you can do that, but that´s rather like claiming being a doctor, while never having seen any university from the inside. There are self check lists, if you have any serious problem, like for example a depression, but that´s not a diagnosis, that´s just an important hint, you might have a serious problem and you should reach out for professional help. You cannot self diagnose yourself with HOCD, most people here seem not even to know about the correct definition of it. It does not mean: " Man, I get hard by watching big cocks, but I don´t like that idea, because I am not gay!" That is exactly one of the points, where the criticism starts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2019
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  2. ZenAF

    ZenAF Fapstronaut

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    I used to have HOCD for roughly two years and I disagree. I know to my core that I'm straight. I can still find a man visually good looking, but that doesn't make me bi, there's more to it ^^.

    This is how my HOCD manifested itself:
    About 12 years into my porn addiction I started to ask myself whether I could be bisexual. I was always into women, never wanted to be with any man that I've ever met in my life. And yet I wondered whether it was possible to have a repressed gay part. The reason for this curiosity was mostly because I've seen a lot of naked men in porn and I noticed that cocks together with women could aroused me. Porn made it one big association package. But even in my most drunk and high states I never felt like watching gay porn. However I did get into sissy/hypnosis porn, where you have a fast-paced mix between cocks and hot girls, and hot girls with cocks, etc. Knowing that it's wrong/fucked up turned me on, which comes from a lack of self-respect.

    So anwyay I asked myself. Am I gay? I had an instinctive answer which was no. But because I couldn't know for sure the thought became obsessive. Sometimes I had it every day, sometimes I had a few weeks break. At some point it started to decrease the quality of my life, at which point I decided it was no longer smart to ignore it.
    So I started to investigate whether I was gay on as many levels as possible. I reminded myself that in today's society it would be generally ok to be gay, I was sure I wouldn't lose any friends and my family would still love me. All I wanted was the genuine truth to who I am, so I can live out my full potential as a human being.

    I started by observing how I perceive men in my day to day life. And I compared it to how I perceive women. That constant undertone of desire that's present with every single interaction with every single woman who's good looking. Is it there with men or anything comparable? No.

    How do I see men in a crowd? Young women pop out to me, like they're highlighted by my brain, I instinctively focus on them. Do I do the same with young men? No.

    Were there ever any male friends in my childhood who I wanted to come close to? Wanted to touch, feel, experience? No.
    What about girls? Plenty. The older I got the more they filled my fantasies (long before porn, I remember the first fantasies when I was 3), they kept me awake for hours at night, made me cry, yearn, hope. My desire for women is a whole world in and off itself. Do I have that with men? No.

    Then I looked at my dreams. During the time when I had HOCD I had about four different dreams in which I had the opportunity to have sex with a man. I didn't. Now that was a strong indicator. Because usually I do anything in my dreams if it seems even just slightly fun. Any repressive agents are shut down while dreaming, it's the unconscious mind unhinged.

    Then I asked myself some questions: Could I imagine having a boyfriend? Because being in a relationship has obviously more to it than sex, so could I imagine cuddling with a guy, sharing my most secret feelings and dreams, holding hands and walk through a park, argue about what to get for dinner? Could I imagine moving in together, adopting a child, growing old togehter? Well that all seemed nothing but ridiculous to me. A feeling boiling down to "pointless and fake".

    The "curiosity" fog started to clear up. It's origins clearly in porn combined with the confusion of whether it should even be possible for a straight man to tell whether another men is good looking. After the intense investigation I was no longer confused. The HOCD thought popped up sporadically in my head for maybe another two weeks out of habit, but now I had a clear answer that I didn't have before. Then the HOCD left entirely 2 years ago and didn't bother me since.

    If someone would call me gay/bi in seriousness and/or homophobic today I could only smile about it. I know I'm neither of those things.


    I wanted to address the confusion that seems to be present in this thread about whether straight men are supposed to be afraid of homosexuality or not, and whether that indicates that they're actually gay.
    Definitely no to the ladder, I firmly believe that you don't suddenly become gay or bi in the middle of your life. Genuine gay's are "different" since childhood and are not interested in women. When it comes to bi's it seems like they don't grow old xD. Most of them swing to one side or the other eventually, so I think while they're bi they're rather confused and make the best of it.

    Regarding the fear, that's only natural. Sexual orientation is part of your identity, if you think that can change without you having any power over it, it makes you afraid. The point tho is, if you actually are gay, at least a part of you would welcome the change.
    There's a reason why straight men call each other "gay" as an insult. It wouldn't be an insult if it wouldn't hit the spot. Why does it hit the spot? Because most men are afraid to be gay. Are most men gay? No. So clearly, being afraid of being gay doesn't make you gay. (Obviously, smh)
    Why are most men afraid to be gay? Several reasons. The most important one tho is that it's a straight man's biological imperative to be sexually desirable to females. That entails fitting a certain profile. If you're seen as gay, you're categorically out of the mating game.
    Then come traits that are associated with homosexuality which are seen as weak by straight males. Instinctively seen as weak by the way, that's not trained through the parents. The most commonly associated trait, sensitivity, is simply not a trait which will get you move up the social hierarchy of young boys, and you need to climb the ladder in order to be sexually desirable to females. Anything that stops you from climbing, like being given a role which makes you less able (gay, coward, loser), are perceived as a thread by boys.
    The system in the brain which tracks social status, rewards climbing the ladder and pushes stress when falling down, is ancient. In fact at least 350 million years old. When someone calls you gay, that system gives off an alarm and tells you "hey, don't let him do that. that's bad news for your status". So when you say homophobia runs deep, you're quite right. But it's natural, not really culturally indoctrinated.

    Accepting gay people in society as you grow up is a different subject. The natural response is repulsion, because you don't want that for yourself. But you learn that there are differences in people and, if you're decent, you believe that everyone should have the freedom to live out their genuine nature on this earth.
    So I would reserve the word "homophobic" for people who have an actual phobia, like they can't take it! People who don't want gays to exist at all or want to restrict their freedom.

    However that most definitely only applies to a tiny minority of people who suffer from HOCD.

    Sorry for the long post and thanks if you read the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  3. bigboibez

    bigboibez Fapstronaut

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    I think zenAF is right.

    Throughout my 10 years of porn, i was strictly turned on by girls and it never escalated. Just before I quit, I watched one transwoman video (a girl with a dick and a girl) and couldn't really tell why i was so aroused at that. In general in porn films I hated when I could see the man so it was kinda new to see a completely feminine body with a dick, it was less repulsive. At the same time, I was very addicted and I needed more shocking material. However, when growing up all my fantasies were about girls and in reality I am repulsed by both gay porn and even the idea of having sex with another man. I definitely think porn twists it because it kills your libido in reality so you feel more like an asexual zombie and lose the desire for women you had when younger. I guess maybe some people who enjoy gay porn could be slightly gay but the easiest way to find out is to simply reboot and observe your thoughts in real life. Porn is terrible anyway so rebooting can only help your situation. Porn definitely does cause these thoughts to rise though. Completely clouds your libido.
     
  4. Woodland-Soul

    Woodland-Soul Fapstronaut

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  5. Because they are as "100% straight" as all the married men, who sneak out on the holidays to meet anonymously other guys somewhere secretly.

    I give you a list, there you can check up yourself:

    If you jerk off to female solo masturbating or lesbian couples= probably straight, maybe bisexual, 99% not gay
    If you jerk off to trans (MtF) porn: maybe straight, maybe bisexual, probably not gay
    Bisexual porn (MMF): rather not straight, probably bisexual, maybe gay
    Gay porn or male solo masturbation: 99% not straight, maybe bisexual, probably gay

    General rule: Gay men don´t enjoy women only, and straight men don´t get hard by other men only. Everyone else, meaning the far majority of people, has tendencies.
    You watch mostly that stuff, that correlates most with your own actual sexual preference. If you now watch mostly beastiality or BDSM, that´s your actual fetish.
    If you are most happy with vanilla and kissing, you are probably vanilla and enjoy that kind of sex most.
     
  6. Dagger323

    Dagger323 Fapstronaut

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    This is stemming simply from a lack of understanding about the effects of long-term porn abuse. Porn absolutely can cause an escalation of sexual fantasy/behavior that simply wasn’t present before the individual became heavily addicted. There are far too many accounts of this to deny it. This is evidenced by how many porn users end up seeking out increasingly more hardcore genres of porn because previous ones that got them off no longer do. New fresh unexplored genres trigger a stronger dopamine response because the brain is seeking the “rush” that it got when the user first looked at porn. If you do anything too much and too excessively you will become bored with it and seek out something different. It’s no different with PMO abuse. Also, I said porn can induce these effects because not everyone is necessarily going to experience the same things or be affected by porn in the same way. People’s situations all vary, the number of years they’re addicted, amount of times per day, their age, what age they began viewing porn, etc. Porn is in a very similar league to alcohol and drugs. And alcohol and drugs all affect people differently too. You cannot hold everyone to one strict standard and claim that just because Joe is a heavy porn user and has yet to be aroused by gay porn that Jack must have homosexual tendencies just because his addiction escalated to that point. Porn does indeed create this scenario of fetish escalation in many individuals, and it doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about their natural sexual orientation. Dozens of accounts I’ve read have even firmly stated that the absence of porn allowed them to revert back to their natural attractions and once that happened the thought of nude males repulsed them. I myself have been through a similar experience, although perhaps slightly less extreme than some. But I noticed a massive escalation of my own fetishes and fantasies that completely reverted back to normal once I had been on several long streaks. If you have never experienced this first-hand then you really have no way to rightly discuss it with those who have and know what it’s like...particularly those that have seen a complete recovery from it after abstinence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  7. Dagger323

    Dagger323 Fapstronaut

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    Complete straw man argument that I in absolutely no way asserted as an absolute. My point is that someone can be 100% straight and be negatively affected by porn to the point where they are experiencing fetishes that are beyond their normal attractions, and even their orientation. The bottom line is that someone’s escalated sexual behavior as a result of heavy PMO abuse does not necessarily indicate anything about their actual sexual orientation. For some it may, for others it doesn’t. I distinctly stated that porn affects people differently and not everyone’s case will be the same. If you bothered to read what I said I think you’ll find that clearly outlined in my comment...
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  8. Dagger323

    Dagger323 Fapstronaut

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    I’m afraid the implied statement underneath that sarcastic remark is far too anecdotal to actually be used as a valid argument. Only those who have actually experienced HOCD know what their orientation is and whether or not they are merely “covering up” because of some taboo surrounding homosexuality is not something you, I, nor anyone else but them can determine with certainty. All I’m going by is their direct statements, which match my own experience. If I was truly gay or bisexual I would not hide that. The last thing I’m interested in is living a life of dishonesty. However, my entire life I have only been attracted to women. It was only after my addiction to PMO reached its highest peak that I began to experience desires to watch transwoman and other escalated porn genres that I had never even had the slightest interest in previously. Since abstaining for multiple streaks these desires have completely vanished and my fetishes are as they always were before. You’ll find that this matches many of the testimonies of those who’ve gone through HOCD. To say that everyone that made a similar statement is lying and secretly still has these tendencies is certainly more than a bit far-fetched. Again, if you’ve never experienced first-hand the effects of HOCD or escalated fantasies/fetishes as a result of PMO addiction I really am unsure of how you expect to discuss it with people that have.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  9. Woodland-Soul

    Woodland-Soul Fapstronaut

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    Don't you think you also have an issue with nudity?

    I mean a image of a naked Women doesn't give me panic attacks.

    Sounds like anxiety disorder.
     
  10. The whole idea of NoFap forums is based mostly on a neverending serial of "anecdotal stories". There is no true science going on here (because that´s not the most important point in any self-help group) , it´s all about personal experience, the exchange about it, the community effect and the support to each other, by telling your own story or to give advice by own life experience.
    The whole HOCD idea and concept as it is often promoted and understood by many men here, who also self-diagnose and identify themselve with it, has no professional or studied psychological background. HOCD is a rare and seldom phenomenon, not a common symptom of porn addiction.

    That´s an interesting argument, considering a topic, where "100% straight" men regularly judge or offend homosexual/trans people, while having themselve no empathy for them, considering the harm or trauma induced by isolated discrimination in childhood or youth and the withgoing difficulties many of them had to endure during their puberty, because of an ignorant environment.

    You ask for empathy or understanding for your felt suffering by HOCD, but cannot even recognize, why homosexual or trans people might feel hurt and degraded by the wrong use of that concept.
    "Cmon bro, nobody wants to be a sissy! I have HOCD only because of that damn porn! That has nothing to do with my personality or me! I am perfectly healthy normal straight, not like you sick freak people!"

    Nobody wants to take that from you or is even questioning it. I don´t care, if you prefer Big Momma, asian teens or boy feet. It´s all fine to me, as long you don´t harm or force anyone else against their will. You are the ones, who make a huge problem out of it, when too much porn consumation over time brings up desires, that don´t go so well anymore with your personal self-picture. Suddenly there comes up a big question mark: "If I am so perfectly straight, why the hell do I have to jack off again and again to big cocks then?" And one of the easy answers seems to be:
    Well, because we have HOCD. Damn porn changed and twisted our sexuality, and the repentful abstinence of that filthy porn will cure it. (claims who? anecdotal stories...)
    Good luck, I really hope for you, that it will work.Because if it doesn´t, you might have a problem.

    No, that is not, what I have said. I say, there is an obvious reason, why people start to check out certain types of porn and then go deeper for them or stick with that type. Your actual most prefererred type of porn, that which excites you the easiest and most, is probably the closest to your actual sexual preference. That doesn´t mean, that it has to stay like that forever, it´s just a snapshort of the status quo. You don´t watch porn, that has no resonance to your sexual preferences. Like you normally don´t watch TV shows, that just bore you.

    That rather shows, that there has been built up an enormous inner resistance against any potential homosexual impulse inside you. I would suggest look out for an experienced professional sex therapist. He or she shall not assist you "getting out of the closet", but to establish a healthy, authentic and satisfying connection with your own sexuality, however this might look like. There is no healthy and natural reason to fear any naked body or even considering the idea repulsive. You have a male body yourself, I hope you don´t have to vomit, if you watch yourself naked in the mirror.

    A gay person in denial, who is totally terrified by the idea alone or who even has been exposed to some kind of conversion therapy, could indeed have issues like that.

    You write it yourself here, your fear of the possibility alone is even bigger than your wish to stay alive. Phobos is the greek word for fear. And fear is the mindkiller.
     
  11. bigboibez

    bigboibez Fapstronaut

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    This thread has spiralled out of control (much like my porn addiction had lol). The simple fact is this. If you stop PMO, you'll regain a normal libido, and if you're straight, this will be obvious to you. Porn clouds your vision and clearly is causing doubts about sexuality. just quit PMO and stop worrying.
     
  12. Dagger323

    Dagger323 Fapstronaut

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    I already clearly stated that after several long streaks my escalated fetishes have been returned to their original state. I don’t “have a problem,” as you put it, although it is interesting that you choose to word it like that, which would seem to indicate a negative connotation that you yourself associate with homosexual thoughts. This is ironic given your condemnation of others that you accuse of doing the same thing. It seems as though you’re the one with the problem. You misquote me by implying that I have something intrinsically against gays yet nothing I’ve said even remotely indicates such a thing. I’m really unsure of why you can’t wrap your head around the fact that porn can and does change people’s sexual fantasies and behavior. Those suffering from HOCD are not trying to put down gay people or anything like that. Someone else put it well several comments back: HOCD perhaps does stem from a fear, but in the majority of cases that fear is not rooted in homophobia, more so in the fear of having to rethink one’s sexual preferences and the obvious changes that occur in someone’s life because of it. It’s like having to abandon everything you once thought to be true about yourself sexually and accept the opposite, as well as accept different reactions from family/friends and situational changes, particularly in those that have a partner or are married (even though many times this is simply caused by too much porn consumption, which is evidenced by how these fetishes revert back once abstinence is achieved). How many gay people have gone through nearly the exact same fears/angsts when they discovered their true sexuality during puberty? Do you condemn them as well? And what about if the shoe was on the other foot and you discovered an intrinsically gay person with the same porn-induced issues? Would you also condemn him and claim that he is a bigot because he doesn’t want to accept the possibility that he has straight tendencies or perhaps is bisexual, and not homosexual as he’s always believed himself to be? Or is it only straight-identified people that experience this that you have a problem with? I’d suggest you stop with these knee-jerk reactions just because users are experiencing something you vaguely understand and for some reason are unwilling to accept. I’m done responding as this thread is clearly overrun with little more than immature banter and negativity, which is really helping no one on this site.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  13. aliceal

    aliceal Fapstronaut

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    Hello! I'm new to forúm. I'm going through something like that. I always had only desire for women, but with the excess of pornography, I began to feel desire for the semen itself, so far so good, I do not worry about it. But besides that, I started to assisiter cuckold and clenup, one thing connected with the other. I just do not think it's okay to want to share my wife with others just because I have a semen fetish. Today I start the first day away from pornography.
     
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  14. aliceal

    aliceal Fapstronaut

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    Hello! I'm new to forúm. I'm going through something like that. I always had only desire for women, but with the excess of pornography, I began to feel desire for the semen itself, so far so good, I do not worry about it. But besides that, I started to assisiter cuckold and clenup, one thing connected with the other. I just do not think it's okay to want to share my wife with others just because I have a semen fetish. Today I start the first day away from pornography.
     
  15. oneotwo

    oneotwo Fapstronaut

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    Good luck !
     
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  16. I do not condemn anyone or accuse people. That´s not my kind of terminology, I am not a religious zealot. I observe a lack of empathy/acknowledgement/sympathy for the situation of gay/trans people by many self declared "HOCD" men here. To phrase it in a cautious way.
     
  17. Though i know you understand that many porn addicts escalate to futanari porn or transwoman, and after a fap to that particular and rather distasteful category, most addicts feel like shit because they do not actually like transwoman or anything of the sort, it is just their porn addiction which has desensitized them to everything else "normal" so which they need more novelty and that is why Straight men turn to transwoman and end up getting HOCD. Perspective of a Straight teenage guy.
     
  18. I think there comes a lot of misunderstanding in this thread by the disagreement about the definition of HOCD. I can understand the feelings of shame, guilt and regret many men develop, when they have escalated their porn addiction to a point, where they are disgusted about themselve. With the uprising question: Do I really like that filth? Is this my true sexuality? The whole topic of a twisted/deformed sexuality by long time porn consumation is something completly different than diagnosed HOCD. People who suffer by it are straight men, often even in a heterosexual relationship, who are obsessed by the idea they might be secretly homosexuals, against all odds. They do not get excited by gay porn or seek it out again and again to jerk off on it, but because by the motivation to "check", if it might does anything to them. They had no homosexual impulses or experiences in their youth, they are not homosexual or even bisexual, but obsessed with the possibility to check and verify again and again.

    While in constrast the propagated idea of "HOCD" that is often presented here is rather induced by the attraction to transwoman porn. Gay men are normally not sexually attracted to She-males, there is a lot of transdiscrimination going on even in the male gayscene itself. Nevertheless I stay on my point, that people don´t watch or get excited by any porn, that has no connection with their sexual preferences and tendencies. If it excites you, there is something in the material that obviously attracts you. You may not like it or feel ashamed about it, but it´s still there. The thing with an escalated porn addiction is, you cannot go back to your once innocent child state of mind again, like a whore cannot become a virgin again or like a sober alcoholic will always be in danger to relapse, if he lets down his guard. You can only accept it as a part of your personal story and get out of the addiction, trying to deal with the following situation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2019
  19. I can agree with some of what you say but you make it more complicated than it needs to be. the truth is that as a male, a man, a guy i represent masculinity and being masculine means to have a pure attraction to women and women alone, and porn and masturbation shits on masculinity,porn will corrupt the mind, heart and soul and turn perfectly straight comfortable men into scared beta males. gay men and transwoman's ARE NOT MASCULINE, obviously. Watching porn, whatever porn it is, diminishes your masculinity, and if you enjoy porn then you are no better than a porn induced freak and you will be one for the rest of your life. as a man, male, guy whatever you people want to call it these day, i believe that "transdiscrimination" is right, if transgenders want to change the base of biology, change what god created through the snip of a scissors, why should i not be angry at them? When someone makes the argument that transwoman is not gay because gay men do not watch transwoman pornography and heterosexual men do, the people who actually enjoy watching transwoman are the gays, and the ones who have addictions and corrupted minds will feel like shit and not enjoy masturbating to that because they are not gay, and deep in their heart they know that they have a problem with their masculinity and their mind.
     

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