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This video is more dangerous than you think!

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by IamGold, Oct 27, 2018.

  1. IamGold

    IamGold Fapstronaut

    Of course.

    I guess it depends on from which perspective each of us is viewing the subject. For instance, the laws we have are humanity's attempt to socialize away certain behaviors, but on the other hand, media for a large part is enforcing them.

    It is driven by both sexes. Like I stated in my first post: "It’s not uncommon for especially young women to define their self-worth through their attractiveness."
    On your point on them loving it, to an extent, yes. We all want to be accepted, so dressing up sexy and getting a lot of male attention is an effective way for women to fool themselves. But at the end of the day, even those girls have a deeper desire to be accepted as a human being. Not only as a sexual object.

    The reasons behind objectification are: Social, biological and psychological.
    Please read my previous posts.

    I'm glad it works for you. I genuinely am.
    What works for me is to speak up about the things that are wrong in this world.
     
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  2. IamGold

    IamGold Fapstronaut

    To answer your question, I'm denying the POWER of the visual on men. The power.
    If you read what I wrote after the part you quoted: "I don’t deny that it’s a part of the whole, because it absolutely is. But not more powerful as the rest of the whole."
    My apologies, but I don't know how I could have said it more clearly.

    So no need to argue with 1,2, and 3. I haven't denied them.

    So we shouldn't link the biological reasons why men like to view naked women to the phenomenon of objectification of women? To you they are unrelated?

    I really want to understand. In your opinion, are the reasons for objectification solely social then? Or psychological? Or a combination of them?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  3. Pinetree

    Pinetree Fapstronaut

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    Objectification is a purely social construct.

    Or to put it differently it's a type of attitude and/or strategy of getting what you want from somebody. Here I'm generalizing up to the point of saying that objectification has nothing to do with sex or gender.

    So they are unrelated in the sense that, if we agree that there is a "biological reason" for getting money to survive, some people get money through working, or stealing or begging, or cheating, etc.

    And if we are going back to the video, I feel this is exactly its point. Desire has "power" over us, but we should control it, as matter of social behavior/interaction.

    And again, I am generalizing, all desire has "power". Now, if you don't like the word, it can be changed, but I think it brings an useful emphasis.

    And, of course, you could say there is a biological reason for everything or that there is a quantum physics reason for everything, but not sure this is a useful way to approach the topic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  4. IamGold

    IamGold Fapstronaut

    From what i understood, your original argument was that biological factors (the power of the visual) are not associated with objectification.
    My question was "in your opinion, what are the reasons behind this social phenomenon?"
    this doesn't really provide an answer.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be confusing the terms "social construct" and "the social factor" influencing human behavior.

    Social constructs, for instance, law, religion, etc, do not exist inherently but are outcomes of human thought.
    Human thought is an outcome of biological, psychological and social factors.

    The social factor influencing human behavior is one of the three factors that create our motives, feelings, and cognition. The other two being psychological and biological. All these three factors are combined to provide an interrelated whole, which we call a human.

    While objectification is a social construct, or actually a phenomenon, It's "made" by humans. In other words, it's a result of the thought processes of biopsychosocial beings.

    I'm glad that you see it that way.
    One of the reasons I started this discussion was that I'm concerned because the point of having to control oneself is not emphasized enough and that many men and boys may see it as a permission to act on their impulses.
    This is a point that has already been raised in this discussion. Please read the previous posts.

    True, it does.
    I do not like the word "power" (or it's synonyms) in this context. That's because Prager is insinuating that the power of the visual on men surpasses their cognitive abilities and other motives, which in truth, it necessarily doesn't.

    I can't say if there is a biological reason for everything.
    But I can say (as I have many times) that we should consider all three factors which determine human behavior.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  5. Pinetree

    Pinetree Fapstronaut

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    This isn't exactly your question, but my answer was something like: "bad manners" (in the context of getting what we want from other people).

    Now, why people have bad manners ? Because they can get away with it.

    My point was that tracking reasons or causes too deep (like down to the biological) may not be useful because probably you can't tackle the issue at that level.

    If I was to name a biological cause for objectification I might point to the instant gratification mechanism.

    From that I might derive a reason for a narcissistic predisposition of all humans.

    And if that is present at the individual level, we can assume we'll find it at work at the social level aswell.

    To return to the "bad manners" comment, many people have bad manners which are socially acceptable.

    And now that we are here, we must admit that we are in a judgemental position.

    And why are we in a judgemental position ? Maybe because other's people's manners bother us and our own narcissism is hurt by other people's bad manners. And we rely on social and moral values to nourish our narcissistic judgemental position.

    And now, the circle is closed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  6. IamGold

    IamGold Fapstronaut

    I'm sorry but I honestly do not understand where this conversation is going anymore.
    I have stated my arguments and explained myself when my points have been unclear to someone or someone has disagreed with them.
    Right now I genuinely have no idea what you're disagreeing on, or if you even are disagreeing with me.

    Arguing something just for the sake of arguing is not my cup of tea. However, I'm more than willing to discuss the topic of the video, what is said on it and what's said in between the lines.
     
  7. How can you say that sexual objectification is purely a social construct? Sexual objectification is hardwired into our biology. Men are hardwired to screen a female body for its ability to safely carry and deliver a child and react to it physically, it's the only way for our species to survive, just like eating food is the only way for our species to survive. But I completely agree that we have more than enough self-control and willpower to not act on our primitive instincts and that society/media unfortunately teaches us and makes us learn that it's okay to not act self-control when it comes to sexual objectification. I think food is a good analogy when it comes to acting self-control and using our 'thinking-brain' over our primitive brain. When we go to the supermarket for example, we are overwhelmed with all the foods that our primitive instincts may desire. But society teaches us that eating healthy and looking healthy is beneficial for us, so we learn early on that we have to or at least are able to act self-control and willpower and not buy and eat chips, cookies and other foods limitlessly just because they make our natural instincts feel triggered and would raise our dopamine-levels. Same with being on a diet or becoming a vegetarian. It's all a question of learning self-control through willpower and sooner or later adapting such conscious decision making-lifestyle .
     
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  8. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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    So I think it is natural for BOTH sexes to "screen bodies" which is different than objectification.

    I watched a documentary ages ago about sexual desire and visuals.... and the thing is your mind processes in microseconds if the person you saw is a "potential mate" because of factors such as facial alignment, for females the hip to waist ratio for bearing children, for men the physique of strenth, etc.

    Screening bodies/people takes not even a full second to determine viability in their potential to be a good partner to bear children with. No sexual fantasy/thoughts occur with that.

    Objectification is the act of turning a person into body parts, and checking out said body parts and fantasizing about body parts and sexual acts. It's turning a human into an object.

    I think both men and women are visual (and I don't want to get into who is more visual). It stems from reproduction. Reproduction back in the days was not about sexual gratification but rather continuing the human species.

    Sex has changed over the many many years.

    It once was an act to keep the species alive, and I doubt cave men and women were objectifying. They were assessing within a second of an individuals viability as a person to continue the lineage.

    These days, sex is about selfish gratification. It's about so much more. In fact, it's the opposite! It's not about having children anymore, more so, avoiding that!

    So truly, there is a difference between screening for potential mates to bear children and the objectification that society has created because of the change in the meaning of sex. (Thanks birth control!)
     
  9. I completely agree with you that there is a difference between using the image of a person's body for one's own mental porn and the momentary triggering of our biological instinct to 'screen' a body for reproduction value (although I would define both as objectification as the person is looked at as an object for sex/reproduction, but maybe one happens more consciously than the other?). That is what I was trying to say to act self-control with. Acknowledge that the primal instinct for reproduction feels triggered in those first few seconds, and then consciously divert attention from any emerging self-gratifying sexual thoughts/feelings by looking away.
     
  10. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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  11. Pinetree

    Pinetree Fapstronaut

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    Ok, so where exactly does the wrongness begin about the image of a woman ?

    Is it because it creates pleasure, or is it about the body parts, or something else ?

    Also, why liking a certain body part of a human turns the whole human into an object ? As opposed to turning the body part into an object.

    Also, talking about sexual acts, isn't it possible to have a sexual act with a human, and not a sex object ? And that would be possible only in reality or also in fantasy?

    I can think of more examples, but let's take this: a prostitute having sex with a client, is she having sex with a human or an object?
     
  12. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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    @Pinetree It's dehumanizing... it's seeing someone as an object, not a person. That's the "wrong" part. There is a difference between objectification and admiration.

    For instance, I have a thing for guys and hair. If I saw a guy with nice hair playing the guitar, I would be admiring the person for their skills and notice they are attractive. It ends there.

    If I was objectifying, I would start imaginging them naked, imagining sexual acts, I would be focusing soley on the hair, ignoring all other aspects of the person, etc.

    And for the prostitute example. The client is having sex with an object. She is commodifying sex. He is treating her like a "cum dumspter" by using her for sex.

    I say all this because I used to be the girl who valued myself on my looks alone and my ability in bed. I was just talking to my husband that i don't know how to have sex like a person. I perform in bed and don't know how to just be a person, I know how to be a "pleasure object" so to speak.
     
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  13. Pinetree

    Pinetree Fapstronaut

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    Isn't it possible to do both, as in multitask ?

    I get that the client is having sex with an object.

    But my question was:

    Is SHE having sex with an object or with a human?

    Ok, but why can't you perform and be a person at the same time ? Where is the difficulty here ?
     
  14. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

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    Multi-task? No, you're not understanding the difference that Objectification and screening for potential mates... two separate acts with different goals/processes

    She is having sex with a person who paid for sex, but given it's transactional, sure she could be viewing them as an object, depends on how she feels about the client and if she and the client have an emotional relationship or strictly detached fucking

    and because I learned early I am worth my looks and skill in bed. I have never had sex without knowing my role is to please the man... so I've been trying to work on that, allowing myself to have pleasure during sex and know that it's okay, and that sex is not about male pleasure. It's about two equals both giving and receiving, not one submitting and being a sex slave to the other.

    You're question to me is like me asking you why porn is hard to quit? You've been doing it for years and probably did it during formative years. Formative years are crucial to learning and development. Most addicts learned porn as a coping mechanism, I learned my value is my body/sex.
     
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  15. Numb

    Numb Fapstronaut

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    I'm just going to reply to this part. I've know quite a few prostitutes, they were very common where I use to live and I got to know a few of them. They did not like the men they slept with, some hated them. It was a job, a means to an end. Most did it to get money for their fix. Given how they felt I'd say they didn't see them as human. But that isn't going to be universal, each person is going to have their own thoughts and feelings about it.
     
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  16. Pinetree

    Pinetree Fapstronaut

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    This can be a definition of multitasking: performing at the same time more separate acts with different goals/processes.

    And, I mean multi-task, in the sense of doing both: seeing somebody as a person and finding pleasure in their looks, at the same time.

    Multitasking is possible, for other activities humans do, why not in this case ?

    I quite agree there.

    And going back to the movie, I'd say that the men who pay so much money for porn, are objectified themselves. And the object here is the money, like you said.

    Yes, but many men engage in sex with their main goal being to please the woman.

    And they never complain about being objects.

    Yes, but my question is different, because addiction is a different matter. To answer your question, it's hard to quit only because, at some level, we have faith in it as source of happiness.

    But yes, you can answer any question about changing a habit or getting a new one by saying things like: habits are difficult to break.

    But the question that should be asked is what is going on there, in your mind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  17. Fork2323

    Fork2323 Fapstronaut

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    I think this guy is total bull.. Women spend tons and tons of $$ looking at sexy photos too in women fashion magazines. They spend all day doing selfies and make-up and fashion and cloth shopping. They are obsessed with the visual too but of them selves and other women. They are spending millions on diets, exercise classes all to support the visula of themselves.. I think they are more obbsesed with the visual and looking at themselves and and looking at other women than men are.. Women spend way more time looking at fashion spreads on Instagram. A guy will do it to fap. Get done and move on. A women starts her own fashion blog to sell clicks to other women.. Look at how many followers and who they are on all the hot girls are on IG.. They have more female followers than men. Women are obsesssed with the visual. Why would they spend so much time and $ on their hair, clothes, and make-up if they didnt..
     
  18. PornSux2019

    PornSux2019 Fapstronaut

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    :rolleyes:
     

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