The truth is that jerking myself off was infinitely more pleasurable than having sex with women

Discussion in 'Problematic Sexual Behavior' started by ultrafabber, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    I guess it took me very long to finally accept that, but really, that is the truth. I think this is something many more PMO addicts struggle with but they repress it because it's quite a shameful thing and honestly it makes you doubt your sexual attraction.

    Yes, i don't care how many would say it's ridiculous, it really isn't, it's just very difficult to accept. When you prefer STROKING dick to penetrating a woman, you can't really say you're straight. You're not technically gay either cause you're thinking of women, but then again, cognition only goes so far. That's like saying you are straight because you fantasize about women when having sex with a goat. I guess technically you're straight but you're also a zoophile.

    It's the same way with masturbation - you think about women but what you're really doing is stroking dick while sexually aroused. That's anything BUT straight.

    So yes, i was infinitely more aroused when watching porn and masturbating (stroking dick) than i was when i was with real women. I was infinitely more relaxed when i was stroking dick than i was with real women. With real women i felt strong anxiety, with stroking dick i felt no anxiety. I had infinitely better orgasms when i was stroking dick than i had with women. I didn't really feel an orgasm with women, more like a release like a sneeze. Ultimately, i felt infinitely more pleasure when i was stroking dick than i felt when i was with a woman.

    When i look at a real woman, i have no wiring that tells me "she gives you (sexual) pleasure". I do not associate any woman body part with "(sexual)pleasure". All my (sexual) pleasure wiring is "stroking dick"

    It is only fair to say i preferred stroking dick to being with a woman. That's why i'm saying that it is very uncomfortable to say i wasn't really straight to begin with but rather (at least partly) gay.

    What would be the primary characteristics of a gay person? Lack of attraction/pleasure when having sex with the opposite sex and no revulsion towards own sex. "No revulsion" that later transforms to pleasure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  2. Headspace

    Headspace Fapstronaut

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    This makes sense.
    Nevertheless, I feel this doesn't have to be the necessary conclusion.

    It could also be that you conditioned yourself to being isolated while sexually active. You, your body parts and your PC, alone in your little room. It could be that it is not so much about sexual orientation but about being with someone else in the first place.

    How straight or gay is masturbation? You are stroking dick, as you say, but you are still stroking your dick, not someone else's. This could make a difference.
    Isn't "lack of attraction/pleasure" and "no revulsion" pretty much the same thing? It looks like you are not feeling anything for anybody, except your own body parts. If this would be an actual sexual orientation you could call it 'autosexual' (from 'autoerotic'). But of course it is not really an orientation, but a symptom of your autoerotic behavior, stimulated by porn, coping by using PMO.

    In the end, you have to know for yourself. But to me it sounds like you are not really "feeling gay" so far. I hope I could give you a useful different perspective. In the beginning of my recovery, I questioned my sexual orientation as well, but no, a girl's body (and mind, of course) stayed what I desired.
     
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  3. thatsdeep

    thatsdeep Fapstronaut

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    I think your premise - or conclusion - that masturbating is more pleasurable than sex with a woman is an interesting introspection, and part of your self-awareness. But I would agree with the response above that you're taking a left turn to connect it with being gay. As stated above: "you are still stroking your dick, not someone else's." That's a big difference. If you have become excited at the idea or images/encounter of other guys stroking themselves, that may be borderline gay curious, but even then, unless you are thinking about stroking them, I wouldn't call it gay.

    Your basic premise, though, hits on somethinng I think is missing in this whole NoFap thesis: That what is getting you most excited isn't necessarily the stimuli of porn itself, but of the sexual act of pleasuring yourself, which you have concluded you do better than a woman, or better than any woman you have had so far.

    Some may challenge that that doesn't explain why so many in this group can get excited over porn images (or cams, which I maintain are different from porn because they involve a real person) yet suffer ED when looking at a vagina in real life, but bear with me.

    What I think is happening here is that with porn/cams, your penis has become programmed into expecting the pleasure of your hand, massaging it with the expertise only you have so far mastered, whereas that vagina in front of you happens to have a woman attached to it. She may or may not be expert at pleasing you, but even if she is, she isn't likely to provide the instant gratification that your hand can. Also, in most sexual encounters, you will have to work to please her, and your penis will have to be respectful of that. Again, with your hand, it doesn't have to wait.

    If you are truly open with your partner, enough to share your dilemma, she may work with you to solve it. Both of you can stroke your penis together, and I'm sure she can be inventive in other ways. There must be a thread on here somewhere of a female partner watching porn/cams with you - or watching homemade porn of yourselves. I would have to think that would be something of a cure, but more on that another time.

    As with everyone else, I say all this from experience. I am older and grew up in the Playboy-under-the-bed age and never imagined the online sex world of today. I am hooked on cams (There - an admission!) and do find it enjoyable. Because of meds I am taking, I began to experience ED with my wife a couple of years ago after a lifetime of being constantly hard and stimulated by women at the drop of a hat (or better, the drop of a bra strap). I read about PIED and immediately thought that's what happened to me. But in retrospect, I've been jerking off my entire life, pretty much at the same rate, through two marriages and every iteration of porn (with my limits being what I think is unnatural or not attractive to me). ED didn't enter into it until recently, and definitely after the medication.

    Again, I am more excited and get hard easier by cam girls (and really not regular porn) than by my wife's naked body in front of me. Part of this is the aspect of fresh new pussy versus the same old. But I think it's mostly the hand-control issue that's driving it. Around the time of my medication issue, my wife got mad about something (irrelevant to sex) and decided to go on a pussy strike. That's mostly over, but she prefers blowing me in the shower or twerking me there - fairly regularly, I would say - than vaginal sex. The shower play usually entails a stream of water hitting my dick directly, which my dick does not find pleasurable. So of course it prefers unencumbered auto-stimulation. We do still have sex play in bed, but it's a routine of first pleasing her, which I am happy to do, and takes time; again, not instant gratification for my dick.

    This is complicated stuff. I will add another post or add to this one later an idea I don't see discussed here, which is getting off to porn with your regular real-life partner, or indeed, camming with her. But again: I think your thesis is correct, and contrary to that of this entire site: That a guy can find stroking his penis, to porn or otherwise, more pleasurable than reacting to and dealing with a real-life vagina. It certainly has nothing to do with being gay.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  4. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    This is something i discussed here: https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.p...icially-endorse-auto-fellatio-as-well.242870/

    Masturbation is as gay as auto fellatio, they are both a form of masturbation. One is by hand, one is by mouth. Most people will agree that sucking your penis to completion is quite gay, so then so is stroking it to completion.

    No, revulsion implies aversion. Most of the sex stuff are not pleasurable at first and some imply aversion. In another topic i explained this. Revulsion kills pleasure, it snaps you out of it. So for example if you are sexually aroused and something happens that you find revulsive (let's say the toilet drainage busts and a horrible smell comes your way), you will lose sexual arousal and interest. But some people won't, and some will even enjoy it. They are called scatophiles.

    So the first step is to turn revulsion to indifference. Indifference happens when you're neither feeling disgust nor pleasure. This is where the second step begins to happen. Since you're not feeling disgust and keep doing that behavior that is also pleasurable, you will start feeling pleasure along with the behavior. This is called classical conditioning and it's a fundamental fact in biology. Classical conditioning also works on removing revulsion.

    For example, when i was a teenager i was very revulsed by my own semen. I would not even want to touch it. I'd ejaculate directly in the sink or in a tissue. Over time, with the descent into pmo addiction, there was a very slippery slope on what i was revulsed of. I first started ejaculating in my hand in the shower because of convenience (it would get too sticky otherwise). A few years down the line i'd cum in my foreskin, then i'd cum on my belly. At some point, very deep in my addiction, i'd say when i was at my worst, i came on my neck a couple of times. Then, a few months down the line, i came (involuntarily) on my face and on my mouth. The first time it was weird but then i wasn't THAT bothered with it. I didn't enjoy it, but i was like, meh. Had this happened a few years ago, i would've been completely disgusted. Had this happened when i was a teenager, i would've been mortified and close to throwing up.

    The term autoerotic makes no sense tbh, the object of arousal is still a penis or a vagina. The most straight forward argument is a realistic dildo... is that what would one call "autoerotic"? You can't say that because the "penis" is external.

    This is the discussion on having sex with a very realistic robot (like Arnold in Terminator I). Is stroking his dick not gay because it's a robot? No... it's gay. Is it autosexual because it's just yourself? No.. Then you can start breaking down this robot and repeat the two questions. If you remove the head, is it not gay? What if you remove the arms and legs too? What if you leave anything but the pelvis and the penis? What if you remove the pelvis too and there's only the penis left? In all situations, you can't argue it's not gay.

    The problem is that it goes both ways. It's not just a habituation of penis to hand, but also of hand to penis. This is something i want to write a different topic on but i'll describe it briefly here

    [​IMG]

    This weird image is a "sensory homunculus". It is a render of how sensitive your body parts are and how much % they contribute to the brain when it comes to environment interpretation and integration of the environment. The hands are, by far the most sensitive, and that's normal.

    The problem is that when you use your hand to masturbate, the overwhelming stimuli is of stroking dick, not dick getting stroked. Respecting proportions, it's almost a 10:1 ratio.

    I covered some of the other stuff you wrote in the answer to @Headspace

    While i understand some of the ideas presented here may seem unreasonable, i think that over time people will get to understand them.

    If anything, what i hope all people get from this topic is that it is indeed very possible and actually very likely that a pmo addict literally finds stroking dick much more pleasurable than real sex.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  5. Headspace

    Headspace Fapstronaut

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    First of all, I am not writing you to discuss principles of what is gay and what isn't, but to help you 'rewire' your sexuality. In the end, a gay person is a guy who will fall in love with another guy. I believe sexual orientation is less about the fantasies and fetishes in your mind but about love and affection, about the relationships you enter with actual people.

    I would still insist that there is a difference between touching your own dick, a dildo/robot and another human being's one.
    I would say that if you stroke your own dick, it is more the subject of arousal than the object. When I masturbate, I usually get aroused either by my fantasies or by looking at porn, but not by staring at my own dick in the mirror or by getting amazed how erected it is.

    If you masturbate, you have a feeling both in your hand and in your dick.
    If you stroke a dildo/robot, it is only you who feel the dildo/robot in your hand.
    If you stroke another guy's dick, it is you who feel the dick in your hand and the other guy who feels your hand around his dick. You are not only receiving, but also giving pleasure.

    These are differences which can't be ignored. Real sex involves (may be even is) a form of communication. Masturbation or using a dildo/robot always remains a monologue, in that sense.
    Again: stroking his own dick. And probably more because of the feeling in his dick than the feeling in his hand. In fact, however, he is used to always have both simultaneously; he is conditioned to associate the feeling in his dick with the feeling in his hand. During real sex, the feeling in his hand is lacking, which might feel weird at first and be one reason he won't enjoy it.
    But originally, it is the feeling in his dick which comes first. You wouldn't have started regular masturbation if you had only had a dildo or another guy's dick instead of your own one, would you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  6. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    We can't have a thorough conversation if that is not covered.

    Yes, but it's not "autosexual", even if by definition it would be. There's no such thing as autosexuality as far as the object is concerned. The arousal is directed to an organ - a penis or a vagina. On masturbation, the arousal is directed to a penis, even if cognitively it's directed to a vagina. It's the example with having sex with the goat.

    Well we all do that or like to think that. But if you look at the sensory homunculus, the hands provide much more stimuli than the penis. The ratio is severely skewed, i said it's something like 10:1. So while you like to think you're having sex with a vagina, your brain perceives it overwhelmingly as stroking a dick. What makes things even worse is that the hand is a very bad representation of a real vagina while your penis is a 100% accurate representation of real penis, so at the end of the line the signal of "stroking dick" is much, much more stronger AND accurate than "penetrating a woman" is.

    Well, yes, that's what makes it both gay and straight, but the ratio of gay:straight is very skewed, like i mentioned in the previous paragraph.

    Well, initially, yes. But more precisely it's that it's a feeling of pleasure. Yes, the pleasure happens because your dick is stroked, but the problem is that you're also doing an action that you associate with sexual pleasure and arousal - stroking dick. When we factor in the sensory input of the "sensory homunculus", it's stroking dick that is the primary input for sexual pleasure, not getting stroked.
     
  7. Headspace

    Headspace Fapstronaut

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    I mostly stay by what I just said, so I don't have much to add anymore. Just one thing.
    Regardless of what the homunculus tells you: During real sex (with penetration), hands do not play much of a role. At least you do not use them to stroke anything, but mostly to hold your partner, to caress at best. It could be that from masturbating a lot you condition yourself on receiving pleasure from stroking. We can definitely agree that stroking plays a role there. Its absence may feel like something is missing. But this just isn't the natural state. You really just starting masturbating because your partner always was missing. Your hand originally was a surrogate for a vagina.
     
  8. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Well, during sex hands do play a vital role - they let you know you're touching a woman/partner (and not yourself)

    Yes, that definitely. I always said that, to me, real sex felt "weird" and that masturbation felt more "real"

    Well yes, but the partner is actually a man in this case, even if one thinks of a woman, it's the goat sex case all over again. And you end up fulfilling the function of a woman... stroking or manipulating a dick.
     
  9. holding_energy

    holding_energy Fapstronaut

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    What makes things even worse is that the hand is a very bad representation of a real vagina while your penis is a 100% accurate representation of real penis, so at the end of the line the signal of "stroking dick" is much, much more stronger AND accurate than "penetrating a woman" is.

    So, uh, buy a Fleshlight and hands-free mount already?
     
  10. Davidphd1866

    Davidphd1866 Fapstronaut

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    @ultrafabber : I admire your ability to think deeply about these topics. I truly enjoy reading what you have to say. There is REAL philosophy behind the topic of masturbation, and you are helping to bring it to light. THANK YOU.
     
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  11. Trying358

    Trying358 Fapstronaut

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    I think this only tells you that there's a *possibility* that you're gay -- that would be one, but only one, reason for not being sexually attracted to real women. There are other possibilities as well, e.g., fetishes and other paraphilias. The only way to know for sure is to try, since as you're finding out porn isn't a reliable guide to real sex. So I would experiment -- it's important to your happiness.

    The other thing is that you may have a psychological issue that is making you uncomfortable with physical sex. This something you have to explore with a psychologist. You might for example have had a mother who didn't bond properly with you as an infant. Such issues can often be resolved in therapy.
     
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  12. Fitness1983

    Fitness1983 New Fapstronaut

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    Masturbation equals absolute control.

    Sex with a partner...not necessarily. But if even if you find a partner that will allow you absolute control, it still takes time to find that partner and building that relationship.

    Immediate gratification plays a central role here as well, obviously.

    The being gay conclusion is simply not a logical conclusion. Unless you are gay or think you might be for other reasons.
     
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  13. fapequalsdeath

    fapequalsdeath Fapstronaut

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    I find it hard to believe, but ok if yu say so. multiple women is more stimulating than one.
     
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  14. alexg1709

    alexg1709 Fapstronaut

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    I also am not buying this theory at all.

    To say that every PMO addict is gay?

    What about all the vets that recovered and now are married to women?
     
  15. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Gay is not something you "are", its a preference that comes and goes. For a pmo addict who does not have a gf/wife, so who has no real sex, but who masturbates regularly, especially to porn with both women AND men, the preference (or habituation) for gay stuff/ penis is accentuated. For such a person, sexual pleasure is associated more with stroking dick, as the hands have priority and higher dominance in the brain.

    Thank you, im glad to help at least some people, the ones that can keep an open mind about masturbation. I can understand though why so many are very defensive about it.
     
  16. Trying358

    Trying358 Fapstronaut

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    In some people it is, twin studies show that there's a strong genetic component. Coming and going sounds more like bi.
     
  17. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    No, there is no strong genetic component at all.
     
  18. Trying358

    Trying358 Fapstronaut

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    I'm afraid I have to disagree. Indeed, the first gay genes have been found:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/10/giant-study-links-dna-variants-same-sex-behavior
    https://www.newscientist.com/articl...w-gay-genes-tell-us-about-sexual-orientation/

    It is true that environmental factors play a role, though, some of them apparently in the womb (see 2D:4D ratio). It may be that it's genetic in some and not in others, or it could be that certain genes "set the stage" for homosexuality.

    Homosexuality and other sexual variations are also more common in autistic people, and autism is known to be largely genetic:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29159906
     
  19. phwrancesco

    phwrancesco Fapstronaut

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    So you know whats wrong
     
  20. Davidphd1866

    Davidphd1866 Fapstronaut

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    Unfortunately, I think these links show more that gayness is a "defect" rather than a "gay gene". Where are the "straight" genes? Where are the bisexual genese? Where are the lesbian genes?

    Mind you, it is not ME calling a gay person defective. Rather, I am simply evaluating what the so-called studies are really telling us.

    What I will offer as my opinion, and why I think Ultrafabber has some great points, is that soooooooo many of us masturbation addicts want to blame something besides ourselves for our nasty habit. Where is the "masturbator's gene"? There isn't one. And we know it.
     
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