Semen Retention = Steroids

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by AChosenPeople, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. There are no science or studies to prove that PMO can lower testosterone, so NoFap should be increasing testosterone because of the absence of PMO, but maybe with a little logic, we can create theories that move us in the right direction.
    Prolactin is released upon orgasm and prolactin inhibits both dopamine and testosterone. Dopamine and testosterone both have a bidirectional relationship, if one goes down the other goes down and vice versa. So, if you are an addict and habitually PMO'ing without giving the body time to recover then your body is filled with prolactin which will inhibit testosterone which will inhibit dopamine, which will end up inhibiting each other which will cause who knows what because of the inhibition of testosterone which regulates a lot of things in the male body. This would probably throw the body out of whack with stress, then the vicious cycle continues. This is far as my research has brought me and the last part is a bit of conjecture, very simple probably, but perhaps there something about this and that we are abusing the male body by O'ing so often and frequently.
    Also, I've tested my free testosterone which has came back very low for my age, but I believe I am a severe case of this addiction, so there's that.
     
  2. Orlando Aponte

    Orlando Aponte Fapstronaut

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    I'm one of those guys who actually tested my testosterone on various occasions throughout the Nofap process. Masturbation/Nofap had no effect. You are correct in regards to the effects of elevated prolactin on those chemicals, however, only chronically elevated prolactin would result in a decrease of testosterone levels. You could argue that someone who masturbates chronically may have chronically elevated prolactin, but even then, the elevation is likely transient and inconsequential per ejaculation. Those with prolactinomas that acutely affect testosterone levels usually have prolactin levels several dozens or hundred times over the upper end of the normal range.
     
  3. Orlando Aponte

    Orlando Aponte Fapstronaut

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    That's interesting, however, transient spikes in growth hormones like that would not result in any sort of real benefits, and certainly not the benefits mentioned in OP. I actually did intermittent fasting for years. Started off with an 8 hour window, got it down to 6, and eventually started eating once a day (23-24 hour fasting). I did so for about 2-3 years, and experienced no subjective benefits other than appetite control. It also helps considerably with keeping down bloat and water retention. I certainly did not experience any sort of heightened energy/aggression. Growth hormone is not typically responsible for those effects anyway.
     
  4. Are you saying since its transient, it should be back to balance now since I've been rebooting, I've been only able to get 1-2 week streaks mainly

    Also, at the height of my addiction I did it 7-8 times a day for a couple of years, so my prolactin level may be different to what you had in mind perhaps? How are your test levels? Are they low? Mines low for my age so something is up, could be stress because during height of addiction it messed with my head and body in many ways, and we all know stress can be dangerous
     
  5. Crâ

    Crâ Fapstronaut

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    Sorry but testosterone has truly nothing to do with PMO... It's a myth.
    It’s known that short-term abstinence of 3 weeks can slightly increases testosterone levels in healthy human subjects, and one interesting study shows a significant 145% spike in T at the 7th day of abstinence (probably an evolutionary trigger to reproduce). However, long-term abstinence of 3 months has been shown to significantly reduce testosterone levels (note that this is only researched in men with erectile dysfunction, so the low T can be caused by something completely different).
    Source: https://www.anabolicmen.com/ejaculation-testosterone/
     
  6. I've read that in rat testing, it took prolactin a couple of weeks to come back down to normal levels, I know it's rats but they use rats cause they have similar genealogy or something as us, so maybe something along the lines, something must be true about prolactin affecting us long enough to affect our testosterone (also dopamine and testosterone have bidirectional relationship, which dopamine is affected in this addiction) so perhaps there's a relationship between pmo addicts and prolactin levels and testosterone levels, combined with host of other stressors, I'm assuming there is some stressed body part from too much O, on our body probably screws our body's ability to work at optimal levels

    Also, I agree with too long of an abstinence can hurt T levels, that's why I think we should keep our body in normal shape and O once a few weeks, kind of like weening off, in a sense
     
  7. That last bit is a little theory of mine ^_^
     
  8. According to the data growth hormone generally peaks at around 24 hours. Thus my fasts are about 32 hours (one day + two nights for sleep), as opposed to intermittent fasting. Growth hormone generally always works in 'spikes', it doesn't typically stay high for long lengths of time, so 'spikes' are the only way that growth hormone initiates any kind of effects.

    Fasting has also been shown repeatedly in the scientific literature to increase D2 receptors and have other beneficial effects on the brain, including provoking brain growth. However I wouldn't expect much from intermittent fasting. To me, fasting means not eating all day, if you eat a meal on the day you fast that sort of defeats the purpose.

    Wasn't expecting any such effects.
     
    Low likes this.
  9. Opportunity For Better

    Opportunity For Better Fapstronaut

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    Minor correction:

    The study shows that men with existing erectile dysfunction also presented with low testosterone. Then, three months after their ED was treated, their testosterone increased.

    The abstract doesn't say how long they had suffered from ED and (involuntarily) abstained from sex. There is also the confounding factor that ED is humiliating and feeling humiliated significantly reduces male testosterone levels. Conversely, feeling victorious significantly raises them and it's no great stretch to think that the guys would feel pretty good about themselves with a newly working penis.

    So it's possible that the testosterone boost related more to confidence rather than sexual activity. I'm not saying that's the case, but without a study that somehow parses those two factors, you can't say for sure.
     
  10. So, is it possible we have low testosterone because we are depressed and vigorless, resulting in a more "weak" body "frame"
     
  11. I have a naturally masculine body-shape and a low bass voice and I've been depressed and so on for the last four years.
     
  12. Are you saying you have high testosterone even though you're depressed, so no correlation?
     
  13. Opportunity For Better

    Opportunity For Better Fapstronaut

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    Absolutely!

    The body has a feedback loop, where your thoughts and behaviors affect your hormones and your hormones affect your thoughts and behaviors.There are a bunch of studies that show that depression is correlated with low testosterone.
     
  14. My understanding is that clinically low testosterone (emphasis on clinically low) can increase risk for depression but depression doesn't reduce testosterone.

    I think the studies on the relationship between testosterone and depression are focused on hypogonadal or very old men.
     
  15. Opportunity For Better

    Opportunity For Better Fapstronaut

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    Not all, but most are. The reason is because studies are conducted for two reasons:
    1. Potential profit;
    2. Researchers staying relevant ("publish or perish").
    So, studies are done where there is financial interest involved. Guys who are typically known to have low testosterone are the best market for TRT, so studies are done on them.

    It makes sense that it would. Winning increases testosterone and losing decreases it. Heck, even watching someone you like lose decreases testosterone.

    Of course, chronic stress decreases testosterone, as does chronic inflammation. Since chronic inflammation is strongly correlated with depression, there's another mechanic whereby depression could lower testosterone.

    Getting back to my previous post, it's well known that men in long-term relationships experience a decline in testosterone. Men in new relationships of a year or less have the same levels of testosterone as single men. Since men in long-term relationships have about as much sex as single men, it's not the amount of sex that's affecting their testosterone. So it's reasonable to think that the dudes in the ED study were experiencing levels of testosterone reflecting their new lease on life, rather than increased sex, per se.
     
  16. I understand what you mean Hannai. You have a picture of Bruce Lee, a fan of martial arts or some workouts? I used to do body weight work out for a class and noticed I was getting pretty cut and my body felt lean and tighter, do you have any programs or regime you can share with me? :)
    Hey opportunity for better, although the "science" isn't out on it, I do believe in what you say. One example is when we meditate, we can lower cortisol (stress hormone) and when we stress our selves out, we increase cortisol, in both these examples the mind controlled the hormone levels. but that's just for stress, I wonder if I can do something through the mind that will increase my testosterone or create a tougher bodily build, that would be awesome!
     
  17. Opportunity For Better

    Opportunity For Better Fapstronaut

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    Absolutely! ;)

    It should be obvious that our thoughts affect our body chemistry, even if only temporarily. Think sexual thoughts, experience physical arousal; think scary thoughts, get a flood of adrenaline; etc. But there's even more than that you can do with your mind.

    In this study, one group of people did physical exercise and another group of people just imagined themselves doing it. Each group trained, either physically or just by visualizing, for 15 minutes a day, 5 days a week. At the end of 12 weeks they measured the strength gains of both groups. The physical exercisers had increased their strength by 53%. But the people in the group who just thought about exercising increased in strength by 35%!

    Here's another study with a similar concept. At the end of this study, the group that had been exercising made gains of 30% and the all-in-the-head group gained by 22%. Not only that, but both groups gained strength in another measured area that they didn't train. The only way that could happen is by an increase of muscle-growth hormones circulating the body.

    BTW, the above is also an argument for undistracted training. Focus on what you're doing for potentially more gains.
     
  18. Wow that's powerful!! I'm going to visualize while I workout next time to increase the gains even further. Usually I just workout and think about finishing my workout. Now I'll be more mentally proactive

    Also I agree with you about adrenaline through fear and such, so imagining yourself stronger will make you feel stronger which in return your body conforms to that thought through some feed back loop by secrete some hormone, do you meditate or do affirmations?
     
  19. Orlando Aponte

    Orlando Aponte Fapstronaut

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    A lot of young guys in this generation have lowish testosterone levels. No one is really sure why, but testosterone levels have been gradually decreasing over the past century, and seem to have sharply dropped within the past couple of decades. It certainly has nothing to do with PMO. That said, you can get your testosterone/prolactin tested quite easily. Discounted Labs is a good place to start if you live in a state where you can order your own bloodwork. I have had my test levels checked on various occasions. I can tell you my results each time:

    10/7/16: total 284, free 15.4
    10/19/16: total 358, free 14.4
    12/31/16: (on 25mg clomid eod) total 1012, (not going to include the free test, because it was determined using Quest's methodology, which isn't interchangeable with Labcorp's).
    1/31/17: total 295, free 14.2
    2/4: total 308, free 15.3

    Incidentally, I have low SHBG which means that my free testosterone was always relatively high compared to my total, which was clinically low. Some argue that free testosterone is the only value that matters, others argue that it is only half the story. It is important to note that Labcorp recently lowered their reference ranges. All of these results flagged as low with the exception of the 10/19 draw (only by 9 or 10 ng if I recall). By today's reference ranges, I would have registered as "normal" every time, which is quite sad because all of these levels are abysmal. That said, clomid sucked, so I started pinning in March. I can honestly say that the symptoms of porn addiction did not get any better once my testosterone levels were optimized. Is my sex drive better? Yes, but not by more than 10-20%. The mechanism which kills your sex drive through porn addiction is totally unrelated to your sex hormones. Testosterone did not give me super powers or anything like you hear from Nofap. It did create overall improvement in my quality of life, but nothing drastic. The only thing that testosterone has markedly improved is my anxiety. I would say that within days of my first injection (hell, even on clomid), I experienced a 90% reduction in general anxiety. It is been the most powerful anxiolytic substance I have ever used (next to alcohol), making alprazolam seem like caffeine by comparison.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
    mgz069 likes this.
  20. Orlando Aponte

    Orlando Aponte Fapstronaut

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    No, growth hormone exhibits its well-known effects when it is chronically elevated via exogenous administration. That said, you don't have to fast for more than 24 hours to reap the benefits, but the benefits are mostly overstated and exaggerated.
     

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