PAs: You Don't Deserve Abuse

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by Castielle, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Literally nobody is trying to censor you here. You're more than welcome to disagree, as I've already said multiple times.

    I dont think they are forced to do that either, clearly, which is why I'm telling them not to. I've seen many many of them respond that way, as if they deserve it, and I dont think they should resign themselves to that.

    I dont understand this at all. I feel like the precisely the opposite of what I'm doing. I'm telling PAs that they are allowed to take care of themselves.

    Sometimes people need help... that's what these forums are about. People should also be entirely capable of quitting porn on their own, or moving on from their spouse's infidelity on their own. And yet we are all here, seeking advice and support.

    No problem. I doubt that would go over well, though. Many people dont want to hear this, as is evidenced by the negative responses I've gotten. Which is totally fine, people are entitled to their opinion and welcome to share it. But hopefully this helps some people see that they are worthy of decency and dont need to resign themselves to being in an abusive relationship just because they've done things wrong and are trying to change.
     
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  2. SO companions manual? I'm curious @Max Fisher did you read the link that @Trappist posted on this thread, specifically the part regarding SO's actions toward their addict spouses? The expert in the field of SA recovery basically lays it out that it's not the SO's who need the manual, unless they are addicted too of course. I'm not trying to discount any experiences you may have had but in general it seems this is not a helpful direction, according to the experts. And let me pose this question also, how can someone avoid any resentment or anger towards someone who has cheated on them repeatedly and abused them and lied to them and in many cases actually ruined their entire life? I think the victims need to work through their anger and resentment and take control of their betrayal trauma recovery but to avoid it altogether from the onset is very unrealistic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2018
  3. Spouses do not need a manual on how to be better victims and accept abuse without anger or resentment.
     
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  4. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Oh, it goes on. Read more. It's obvious which PAs are bullied by their SOs because of past transgressions. SOs shouldn't get an automatic free pass to say and do whatever they want because they've been hurt. While journals are a very useful tool to help most SOs sort out their feelings and thoughts as they navigate and heal on this journey, I've also seen them used as weapons to tear down the PA and generate sympathy for themselves. It's just wrong.

    I'm reminded of the movie Animal House where the frat boys are forced to beg for more painful beatings with the paddle "Thank you, Sir, may I have another?"
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  5. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    You misunderstood, not a manual for SOs to read but a manual for PAs to read and understand the process SOs go through and what is healthy and not healthy behavior that they (the PAs) should accept or bring up as unfair to their spouse. Most "good guy" PAs are much more willing to error on the side of letting unhealthy abuse exist because of their past sins as a way of self punishment. It doesn't help anyone for PAs to not know what is healthy or not (most of the time they don't know, due to their addiction etc.), it's hurts their recovery and the couples recovering in general. I don't think victims need a manual, but two victims doesn't help anybody either. PAs just need clear "You should expect/accept this from your SO...but NOT this...etc". That's what I meant by manual. The resentment is not flowing from past behavior per se, but if things are unclear and expectations hazy in the recovery process on either side, NEW resentment is the result when expectations are not met. I'll default to the communication statements mentions above. I hope this clears it up. I don't intend on handing SOs who have been hurt by addiction a manual, but they (or you) could help create one to show what is healthy and what is not in the recovery process. I mean that is what this whole site is, but it's not all condensed nicely in a set of helpful threads.
     
  6. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Well then it's a good thing that's not at all what this thread is.
     
  7. Trappist

    Trappist Fapstronaut

    Haha! And not in the problematic sexual behavior section.

    I think this is why SAA and COSA are separate meetings. @AnonymousAnnaXOXO described below how the wisdom of Solomon might be needed to thread the PA/SO needle of understanding.

    A strength of NF is we have it all to sort through. Taking and giving what we need at the time.

    Nothing if not detailed.
     
  8. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I agree that people need advice and help to deal with certain things, which is why I said I see good intentions in your post. But your post was simply pointing out that PAs are victims to their SOs if SOs abuse addiction-related mistakes to constantly express resentment and expect special treatment. The better way to handle the issue would be to discuss how SOs should properly deal with feelings of resentment for having been emotionally hurt by the person they love, which is what a lot of threads on this section of the forum already deal with. Otherwise this just sounds like an appeal to PAs to not be victims and not let themselves get emotionally abused by their SOs' behavior which they are fully responsible for handling themselves and, if needed, get advised on how to handle it.
     
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  9. i_wanna_get_better1

    i_wanna_get_better1 Fapstronaut

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    Ok, I'm going to try to bring this around to the OP's initial comments...

    Both individuals in the relationship have a lot of things that need healing. Betrayal trauma varies from person to person, is very real, and can destroy a person and a relationship. Addiction is also an all-consuming disease and radical changes are necessary in order to escape that destructive pattern of behavior.

    At the beginning of my reboot, my wife and I had some very serious conversations. There was a lot of bitterness, anger, frustration, and even HATE. We both had the goal of fixing our relationship. After many discussions, I learned that, irrationally, my wife was was only going to forgive me after I had felt as much pain as I caused my wife. In her mind, that would balance the scales and there would be true justice.

    Unfortunately, the 'eye for an eye' approach does not work. That is not what true forgiveness means. We finally agreed that the goal is to redeem the addict and make him worthy of forgiveness and to help his partner heal. Sometimes that takes time. There are going to be good days and bad days. The old personality is going to sometimes rise to the surface and will need to be beaten down again. Old forgotten memories and injustices are going to be remembered and need to be discussed.

    The addict may have done horrible things, but the recovering addict cannot be forever labeled as a monster. It's one thing to accept responsibility... it's quite another to carry around and be reminded of all the shameful, embarrassing, and cruel things he might have done. It often has the opposite effect and they return to their harmful behavior to escape the pain that is right in front of them. No person can survive if he thinks he is unlovable, unworthy, and unredeemable.

    Each person has a right to their feelings. I think we need to take into account which folder these thoughts are being expressed. If it's in the main relationship folder then it's open to discussion, but I also believe that what is written in a journal is off-limits. Journals are supposed to be safe places to vent thoughts and feelings without fear of judgment and hopefully receive some comfort. It's an extremely effective therapeutic tool. But if others continue to criticize another member's thoughts and feelings then that will lead to self-censorship. Then the journal loses its effectiveness.

    No one here deserves to treated like crap. And if these things are happening then it's time to talk about what is going on below the surface. Please, go see a therapist if you need someone to mediate the conversation. Many of us are damaged more than we know I would hope that the goal of both partners would be to reconcile if possible. Forgiveness is very difficult to grant if trust has been shattered. It takes a tremendous amount of work to reestablish it. Often it takes a professional to help that process along.

    Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  10. Oh, ok, I see, I did misunderstand completely. Sorry bout that, I get what you're saying now.
     
    Max Fisher likes this.
  11. Sorry but I don't really understand what you mean by this comment.
     
  12. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    As you said, other threads already deal with this. I dont understand why people are so threatened by me addressing men for one second. You have plenty of threads discussing how SOs can handle their feelings. That's not what this thread is. There are plenty of other places to talk about that, and I would not say one is any "better" than the other. They're both important in their own way. What I'm saying here is very important. It might not be for you, but it is for others, and I have been told that on several occasions by several different people.

    That's exactly what this is, and there is nothing wrong with that. Do you have any experience with people who are emotionally or otherwise abused? They often convince themselves they deserve it. So how exactly are they to go about searching for help if they believe their situation is normal and they dont deserve help? Answer: they wouldnt. This thread isn't about telling people how to find help, its simply about telling they they deserve to search for it. And that's an important message. If you want to start your own thread about what you believe is important, do it. I believe this message is important, so I have brought it to the surface. Theres absolutely no need to say that this thread is dumb or useless or not good enough because it doesnt fit what you believe to be important. If it's not useful to you, then why dont you just move on and allow it to be useful for someone else? It's not hurting you or anybody else, and it is helping people.
     
  13. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Thank you for your thoughts. I completely agree with everything you've said!
     
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  14. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    Wow, now you are just unfairly putting words into my mouth. I never ever said even once what you're doing is unimportant or wrong or dumb or useless?! I specifically said you have good intentions. I'm simply expressing my opinion that PAs do not need to be told to not be helpless victims to their SOs behavior and you can feel free to disagree with that.

    Please read more carefully next time and don't accuse me of having said things I never said.
     
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  15. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood. I got the vibe that you were telling me I shouldnt have made this thread. If that's not the case, then I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

    I do absolutely disagree with that, and I find it strange that you can believe such a thing. If that were the case, abusive relationships would not exist. Clearly people need to be told they are worthy, sometimes.

    I know you didnt literally say those words, obviously. It was hyperbole, but I thought that was your basic message. Which it kind of is... your message is that you think I shouldnt have said any of this because people dont need to be told that. I respectfully disagree, and I dont really see the purpose in commenting that in the first place, honestly. I've already been told by several people that this is a really important thing to bring to light, so clearly people other than you do feel it was necessary to hear. If you dont, that's fine, but other people do.
     
  16. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Okay, heres the thing. I didnt make this post for drama. I didnt make this post to point fingers and air out peoples dirty laundry and gossip. I made it for one reason and one reason only, and that is for any man who is in the kind of relationship I described to hear (possibly for the first time) that the behavior they are dealing with from their spouse is not normal, healthy, appropriate, or justified, and for that man (or even woman as well, although I haven't really seen any examples of that around here) to know that he deserves better than that and that he shouldnt be viewed for the rest of his life as simply the sum of his past mistakes.

    If anybody disagrees with that message... well, I dont really have much to say to you. I've said everything I came here to say, and i truly do hope it helps people to see that their relationship is unhealthy and that they deserve to address that and not just sit back and "take it like a man" because they "deserve" it. If anyone else is offended, I've already apologized, but personally I think this message is important enough to be worth a little bit of offense.

    Also, this thread was not made in response to another thread or any particular event or person. Its something I've been frustrated about and thinking about for months, possibly longer even, and I finally had a bout of courage to say it.

    Idk if I will be responding much to these comments anymore, unless they are constructive to the conversation. I'm not going to go in circles.

    Anyway, hope this all helps somebody and isn't for nothing. I know if I were in that position and I finally heard someone say "hey, that's not okay, you deserve better than that," it would be incredibly reassuring and give me a lot of peace. I've been in those shoes, to a degree, and its extra painful to be suffering while also feeling like what you're experiencing is the norm, so you should just accept it and not rock the boat. I'm just here to say, if this is the position you're in, in my opinion, you are allowed to rock the boat, because that's not normal and it can be better than that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  17. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    What is your reasoning behind this? We tell SOs not to be helpless victims to their PAs behavior everyday on these forums. Why can't we do the same for PAs when we see that they are being abused, torn down, and made to feel like they deserve it?
     
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  18. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    Thank you for apologizing and apology accepted. I'm sorry as well if I offended you by voicing out my opinion.

    I just felt like the original post was addressing specific posts that were interpreted as a general reflection of mistreatment towards PAs by their SOs, and I just wanted to say that nobody on this forum can have such insight based on a few posts into people's personal relationships to need to tell them they are being mistreated, because if they are, they are mature enough to address it and communicate it in their own relationship. If this was simply a general appeal to all PAs to speak up for themselves if their SOs are treating them unfairly, then I fully support that and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
     
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  19. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    That's what it is. Although I do have a few specific relationships in mind, but if course I dont presume to know everything about their relationship from a few posts. I have some suspiscions though, and that's enough to warrant at least kindly telling them that IF this is their situation, they deserve to stand up for themselves. "If" being the key word. I have brought this up to someone personally as well, because I have a relationship with him and hes not just some random stranger, but I think its worth extending that message to everyone, just in case.
     
  20. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    My view on the OP was that it was a specific post that finally broke the camel's back. It's something that has been going on for a while in threads posts, journals... I've seen it. She's clearly seen it. A number of people have seen it. I felt like she said to herself that enough was enough and wanted to finally say something.
     
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