PA’s, help me understand

I think it's probably the chaser effect. This has happened to me as well. I can't speak for the other guy's relationship but in my situation it's pretty rare that my wife and I have relations on consecutive days. So I know that if we were intimate the night before the most realistic way to get a O (which my body seems to scream for the next day) would be for it to be self induced. It's frustrating as it seems like you should be satisfied, but you still want more of the "high" from another O. In my experience this crazed desire subsides the following day.

 

Chaser effect or not, addiction or not, it would tell me that what I just shared with my husband meant nothing to him. To have an incredibly intimate and bonding experience just to have him throw it all away hours later drives home the realization that he was in it for the O, not the intimacy. It would tell me I was used and that I couldn't trust my feelings.

Sorry, while I try to be supportive about most things, this is not something I am very understanding about.

 

I wasn't trying to imply that giving into the urges is acceptable. I agree that doing so would definitely devalue the true intimacy that had just been shared. Part of the healing process is to learn that resisting urges will not kill you. After a time its easier to "observe" the urges and be confident that they will pass.

 

I see your logic behind that statement and by no means am saying you are incorrect for feeling that way, this is my thought on it as an addict:

I really struggle with instant gratification. Before NoFap, I wanted it all the time. No matter what. If I was feeling good, I didn't have to face the shit in my reality that was bringing me down. PMO, drugs or daydreaming were much easier than dealing with my issues. Now on NoFap, and having completed a long streak to this point, I can say the urge to "feel good" is still there. I'm starting to realize that it will never completely go away. The biggest difference between me then and me now is the ability to recognize and refocus my attention away from those urges.

My point is that it isn't fair to say that the Hubby didn't enjoy the intimacy in that moment. He very well may have. As an addict though, his need for more is unbalanced and his binge behavior just suggests that he is still early in the process of recognition and awareness. Addicts in this stage need compassion and encouragement, not condemnation or guilt, which I'm sure he experienced plenty of after going on a PMO spree.

To the OP: It takes a long time to change a systemic destructive behavior, sometimes an entire lifetime, and choosing to be with an addict means that you are in it for the long haul, which will include ups and downs. He definitely experienced the Chaser Effect, but at least you are open and discussing what happened. Let him know you understand but really want him to stick by the goals he sets for himself!

 

BBWolf000 is spot on with his reply. As a PA I would pretty consistently use PMO after having sex with my SO. I was frightened I would relapse from the chaser effect the first few times we were intimate together once I started my reboot.

For me the PA manifested as a lot of shame, and many times after having sex, I would still be turned on, and rather than ask my wife for seconds or feel like I was forcing myself on her, I would turn to PMO. It really boiled down to lack of communication and honesty with my sexuality with her. It always seemed easier to pull out the phone or sneak away to the computer to get one more fap in. Other times, while and when the sex was amazing, being an addict, the dopamine hit from O with my SO just wasn’t satisfying to my addiction riddled brain, and the call of the novelty of P and another dopamine hit was too easy to come by through continued abuse of PMO.

Yourbrainonporn.com gets into the science and affects of addiction on our brains and could be a good resource to educate yourself on them for the PA in your life. PA is definitely a disease of disconnection, the shame and guilt from it can create a feedback loop of progressively dishonest behavior, and cause us PAs to push away those closest to us, shun their affections or compliments, and consistently demoralize our self esteem which forces us to turn to more PMO to feel better just for a little bit.

 

I get that it is the addiction. I really do. I just don't understand how a person can so deeply connect and bond intimately with someone and then within hours PMO to images of anyone but the one they just connected with. There is just no way to reconcile that. Obviously it meant more to one person than it did the other.

IN THAT MOMENT. Exactly. It means something in the moment and then when it's over it means nothing. Or at least he thinks it means something. Often times it's just another way to get a fix. I get that it's addict behavior, but that doesn't make it any less painful for the spouse. In fact, it makes it more painful, because for her it means true intimacy for a lifetime. It means they are joined together as one flesh. But the addict takes his part back and divides it among the hundreds of images he lusts after, mere hours, sometimes minutes after claiming to join as one with his spouse.

Until a full reboot happens and the addict fog is lifted, there is no possible way he can truly be bonding and connecting with his spouse. That is what I'm getting at.

I just have to call this the way I see it. No kid gloves here. I'm getting really tired of reading this same type of thing over and over and over again. Addicts need people to be nice to them. Addicts can't have their feelings hurt. Addicts need cheerleaders. Etc. It's all about you addicts, isn't it? Because you sure as hell didn't give a shit about anyone else's feelings while you were busy lying, gas lighting, stealing, losing jobs, objectifying, neglecting your families, and making your wives feel like they are worthless. And that's the short list. Yet, now the secrets are out and everyone is supposed to put their pain aside and make you feel better about yourselves or else you'll keep doing it. It's their responsibility to make you better. Don't worry, you have no responsibility to help them heal from the damage you have caused in their lives. (Not you, specifically, @BBWolf000 , addicts in general).

I know that sounds a bit angry and harsh, but I think that I speak for a lot of SOs that feel like they can't express their true feelings because they have to support their PA unconditionally or they might relapse and it's not right. PAs cause a lot of damage to other people and they don't get a free pass by claiming a fragile ego. It doesn't work like that.

 

I totally agree with you, and I am (trying my best to say "I was") a PA. That is a very realistic approach! A straight to the pain point speech! I know exactly how we make you feel, and that is my greatest motivation to stop. And I will stop! This is my first time attempt to stop PM and The Last One, The One that will bring back to my wife her husband and the life she missed for so long! I am deeply repentant about that! I cannot do anything about the times I hurt her, but I certainly can for the rest of my life! And it's upon her, if she still wants to stay with me, or leave me. I will still stay loyal to her and PM free, whichever decision she make! That chapter of my life is over! Period.

 

Hi @Torn,

I may very well get lambasted by other PA's for what follows, but so be it...

To be painfully honest, and confirming what so many other SO's have said, as much as anyone wishes it to be, no living, breathing REAL life person can match the porn show. Reality cannot match the variety, nor the (weak) acting, nor the kinks or fake "enjoyment" we see in porn.

Then, even more, combine that with our male insecurities that are created comparing our "performance" to the ever virile, permanently erect and hugely endowed men in porn, where the mere sighting of their manhood causes women to totally lose their minds with desire, and you have a mix that is lethal to normal human sexuality, intimicy and interaction. The final nail in the coffin is that in almost all movies, virtually zero effort is required from either party to get straight into "bumping uglies".

There are no headaches, crying children, blocked sinks, sick pets or other stresses of everyday life (unless the blocked sink results in the plumber arriving to assist the damsel in distress and then the P scenes begins at once! )

Sad as it may seem, but compared to a porn scene, getting intimate in real life is HARD WORK and takes TIME. I have purposely capitalised the parts that PMO NEVER needs. There are just so many external factors in real life that porn doesn't have. The only distraction is our phone ringing, or something else interrupting us, and we can always pause the show, rewind and carry on where we left off. Sadly, real life doesn't have a pause or rewind button, and we can't simply start over as if nothing happened, and worst of all there is no erase button t o edit out or remove the bad parts of life.

The other unfortunate side of most of this is that (unlike the SO and PA) the porn star/s doesnt know about my addiction, hasn't been negatively affected by my attitudes, behaviours and PIED or the multitude of negative side effects that porn causes. The result of all this is that real life will never compare to the PMO addicts drug warped mind.

The good news is that there is ALWAYS hope, and the fact that you are here asking these difficult questions shows your desire for a better life/love. Remember that no matter how much we PA's try and shift the blame onto you, gaslight and more, THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT! It is 100% our fault, and no amount of excuses, bad childhood, ignorance or anything we experienced can make it your fault.

Many PA's have realised the terrible effects of our addiction and have stopped. We are actively rebuilding the trust we destroyed, rekindling the love we killed and restoring the unity we broke. Yes, at times it is really hard work, and sometimes seems to need far more effort than PMO asks for, but real life with a living breathing person is far more satisfying.

There can be no disputing that SO's are justifiably angry, hurt, disgusted, shocked and every other negative by what we allowed into our relationships, and... even though we seldom admit it, most PA's feel the same about ourselves as you do. Once we own our wrongs, admit the hurt and start recovery, we just need a little affirmation that our "efforts" to recover are not in vain.

For myself, and many others our PMO free life is so much better than what we fantasized about that the movie in our head can be stopped, erased, removed and replaced with LOVE and every good thing that real life can offer.

I wish you strength, fortitude, understanding and compassion as you get through this unasked for challenge.

Waz.

 

I'd agree with that. As a sex addict when I get that O I want more more more. So the chaser effect kicks in and I find myself PMoing to get it instead of patiently awaiting our next romantic interlude. The problem with being an addict--you don't care where you get your fix as long as you get it.

 

I totally understand your message there. It absolutely isn’t fair to anyone involved, especially a SO who didn’t sign up to be a therapist or shoulder this kind of burden. I know you won’t want to hear this but...

It also isn’t fair to the PA/SA to have to deal with this. They have a chemical imbalance, a disorder really, that produces so much guilt and self hatred it (clearly) creates a massive path of destruction in their life. Just like an alcoholic. Just like a heroin addict. Just like a bottom dollar gambler. Porn and sex are a carrot dangled in front of a mans face from early adolescence all the way through adulthood. Culturally we are desensitized to it and the important parts of it like intimacy and real connection are never taught to us. With this kind of upbringing it really isn’t shocking that so many adult men struggle to know how to view and treat women. How to Love whole heartedly or how to be a great partner.

Instead of seeing it as “Oh Poor Addicts...” or “Oh Poor SO’s” maybe it would be best to see it as “Poor Culture” “Poor World” “Poor All of Us”

While it took only the actions of the addict to get couples into this situation, it will take the commitment of both parties to get out. Resentment has to go.

Yes, this isn’t fair and once again I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with these issues, but if there is any hope for any of our future relationships, we have to really accept, forgive and move forward, which might include moving on.

 

Can totally understand. At that moment your PA/SO may have very well been connecting with you and in the moment. But his dopamine-addicted brain requires huge amounts that may not be achievable IRL.

If your SO was an alcoholic and you had a great weekend where he stayed sober, only to hit the bottle on Monday, would you say the same thing?

 

I don't think it's a fair comparison because what we are talking about is sexual intimacy. The kind of deep intimacy where when you reach the deepest point, you literally feel for those moments that a part of you has become a part of your partner and your partner has become part of you. Where you can't pull yourselves close enough to each other, where you feel your souls touch.

If your partner is sober and then goes out drinking hours after, it won't cause the same devastation as it does if he binges on porn hours after. Drinking isn't sharing his intimacy with others. Porn is. Drinking isn't sending the message to his SO that what he just shared with his SO meant so little that he is willing to give the same to every naked woman he can watch on a screen. There is a big difference.

 

I partially agree with you. It may or may not be fair for the addict. That is an individual thing, wholly dependent on each situation. But the fact of the matter is that the addict has the tools to get help. The addict may not be able to stop on his own, but he knows there are avenues to get help he needs. Many aren't sure where to go. Many are scared. Many don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. Many don't want help because, let's face it, there is a payoff. Even with the self loathing that inevitably comes later, there is a pleasurable experience for him, too. There are choices to be made, even in the midst of addiction.

My question is, why is it "poor" anyone? Addicts become addicts because they view themselves as victims of their past and try to hide from it. SOs have a hard time forgiving because they view themselves as victims of their PAs addiction. When we view the world with a "poor all of us" attitude, even in a broad view such as you mentioned, it keeps us all in the past and does not allow us to grow and move forward.

My point in my little rant is that addicts seem to think it is a requirement that their SOs support them unconditionally during their recovery and I simply don't agree. Now, let me explain. I am not speaking for myself, I am speaking on behalf of spouses and SOs who may not have the courage to speak for themselves. It is a SOs choice to support the PA, but it isn't mandatory for the PA to get well. It is highly unfair and part of the continued cycle of abuse for the PA to expect it from their SO. Sure, it absolutely helps for the SO to be supportive and a part of it, but that is their choice and needs to be done in their time when they are ready. If they are ready. And it doesn't have to be out of resentment that they don't want to participate. It could be very triggering and too much for them. It could be that it is just something they want the PA to do on their own. It could be for any number of reasons. But even if it is resentment, after all the PA has put the SO through, especially if it has been years and years, the PA needs to be the one who is understanding that it may take a lot of time to work through the issues that he caused. And he needs to be prepared that he may need to work through them alone.

I support my husband, but he never made the assumption that I had to. I want to, because of course I love him and want to help him, even when I'm upset with him. But he doesn't have the expectation that this is what I need to do to keep our family together. His only expectation is what he needs to do to keep our family together. He has said that he wants my support and wants to do this together but he won't stop his recovery efforts even if I didn't want to because he wants to get well for himself and for our family.

 

*nodding* . 100% true.

 

Thank you for sharing this message! I think its normal for PAs to hope that their SOs will support them but it's not fair for them to feel entitled to support (for the reasons you captures so well).

 

You're absolutely right. It's the problem with this addiction--it causes as much damage to one's partner as it does to the addict. Sometimes even more.

My point as that just b/c a PA may go on a binge or Relaspe after sharing intimacy doesn't always mean that he/she did not connect or feel close during that intimate time.

However--I can see how that is completely fucked up as well. Your partner is burner able, open and accepting of you with intimacy and then to turn around and start jerking off to superficial videos of unreal people fucking?

 

You are absolutely right!

 

Just trying to convey that we are all in this shitty, sexually unhealthy culture boat together.

Absolutely agree.