Masterbating without porn!!

Discussion in 'Abstinence, Retention, and Sexual Transmutation' started by Captain A, Feb 16, 2019.

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  1. Agonist

    Agonist Fapstronaut

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    As I originally stated, whether it's natural or not is irrelevant. Getting sick and dying of horrible infectious disease is natural, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Even if I grant you that it's unnatural (it's not), it still doesn't lend any credence to the argument that it is an inherently bad thing. The only evidence you supplied for why you think it's unacceptable is that it made you feel guilty, which you took to be some sort of message from a supernatural being (presumably the christian god). Of course masturbation is going to make you feel guilty if you're religious. Sexual suppression is a cornerstone tenet of Abrahamic religions. If you're going to make a case for something, you need to use evidence that is universally applicable to those with differing beliefs. For example, you don't have to be a christian or a muslim to be convinced that smoking is harmful to your health.
     
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  2. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    This same excuse again, come on read the thread :(
     
  3. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    Blah blah blah, "masterbate is natural" boi hahahaha!! Excuses! giving in to urge :) and relapse a vicious cycle hahaha!! Its not natural, you have a choice to masterbate on yourself. Whats natural? Have sex with someone or just wait for nocturnal emmission. Its just an excuse plain and simple, come on wake up, the urge is making excuses for you to masterbate man. You have some reason and excuses again? Then go on and indulge, then when you feel something is wrong, there is some pattern arising, bodily process deteriorating or effects. Then read your comments again and find answers that deep inside you, you want to know, is masterbation really a natural thing or an excuse for my indulgence, does it affect my health, my psyche, why some people regardless of religion, choose to not indulge and cope up, and this habit did not bother them again rather cultivate their mind in clarity, not be overcome by sexual desire but the other way around.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  4. Ra's Al Ghul

    Ra's Al Ghul Fapstronaut

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    I agree with you OP. M is way too addictive and rarely can anyone keep it at a "moderate" level. Before you know it you're jacking off all day in your room.
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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  6. Agonist

    Agonist Fapstronaut

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    I know English isn't your first language, but I suggest you reread my posts. I have explicitly stated that masturbation is too dangerous for porn addicts, and since I am a porn addict, I do not masturbate. Also, if you're going to challenge my point of view, you should address my actual arguments. Making assumptions about me and my psyche and using those as the bread and butter of your counter-argument just makes your perspective seem even weaker. If I'm as wrong as you say I am, it should be easy to dismantle my arguments without resorting to ad hominem.
     
  7. fire.bird

    fire.bird Fapstronaut

    I also have to respectfully disagree with the idea that you can't masturbate in a healthy way (as a recovering porn addict). I think this will always be highly dependent on the person, not something that you can say one way applies to everyone. For some, total abstinence from all forms of masturbation for the rest of their life is the way to go. For others, it might not be. It will very much depend on the persons addiction history as well as their goals.

    I think it's important to remember that not everybody here has the same goals for their sexuality. I, for example, strive to minimize the harms of my sexuality while maximizing its benefits. Yes, sexuality is not to be taken lightly, it has some serious risk of causing harm (I think we can all agree), but I also believe that it has potential for wonderful things (in particular, sex as a means of expressing and deepening love and connection with another person in your life).

    So, in line with my personal goals, I alternate between one month no PMO (to break down old unhealthy habits and restore the brain's reward system) and one month where I fap every three days without porn, striving to fantasize about intimacy rather than the female body (to rewire my sexuality towards what I consider to be the "good"/"healthy" aspects of sexuality). If I had a gf I would practice this with her, but unfortunately I don't so fapping is the only way to do this. Of course the fantasies often slip towards more "tits and ass". This is where I have to be vigilant not to fall into just completely indulging in my old porn-like fantasies. Then I would be deluding myself if I called this "healthy fapping". What I do is I make a strong intention to watch out if this happens, and to then (often with much effort) shift my focus away from tits and ass and towards intimacy. I do this over and over again when a voluptuous ass pops up in my mind. This is great practice for me. Sometimes, I dwell a little too long on dat ass. But each time I succeed in shifting my focus, it is a win. For so many years sex has just been a carnal thing for me - only about the body, but I am now making an effort to rewire this in line with my values. For me, this is working quite well.

    Man I always end up writing such long essays. Oh well!
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
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  8. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    Just an advice, for those whose urges are really high, and masterbation compulses is on its way and yet don't want this to take control over their mind and body and really have a strong conviction about the harm of those harmlessness theories of masterbation, just read my content or read my comments in this thread, and also, read this link its helpful in staying clean. For those who are new in rebooting and for those that are going to finish the 90 days hard mode this will help a lot. https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/6-years-clean-rebooting-as-the-best-remedy.135983/
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  9. Jefe Rojo

    Jefe Rojo Fapstronaut

    You’re right, I shouldn’t have brought my personal beliefs into it. I was more just stating my point of view. You bring up some good points.

    So to be fair, let’s look at it from a non religious perspective so we are all collectively on the same playing field. We can look at the pros and cons of masturbating without porn. The following are based off my own experience so I’m not saying that the following things happen to everyone:

    Pros:
    1. Amazing feeling of sexual release (for about 5 seconds)
    2. We don’t have to rely on anyone to help us achieve an O as we can do it whenever we want.
    3. It helps us escape our reality and relax.
    4. We can fantasize while masturbating instead of having to work for real sexual experiences. It’s much easier and less work on our part.

    Cons:
    1. We feel a sense of depression after (after we come down from the dopamine high).
    2. We have to do it in secret so no one sees us. We have to clean up the evidence to avoid people discovering our secret activities.
    3. There is a post-masturbation haze that lasts a few days. Can’t focus very well.
    4. It makes us socially awkward and we can’t look other people in the eyes afterward.
    5. We feel a lack of motivation to do anything afterwards. We may fall behind in our responsibilities.
    6. Some people feel guilt.
    7. It makes us more self-centered and selfish.
    8. It robs us of our emotions. It’s hard to feel anything afterwards.
    9. It gives us no incentive to go out and make real friends or have healthy relationships.
    10. It’s addicting. Those of us who are no longer looking at porn have the hardest time not MO-ing. Our bodies crave that dopamine.
    11. It eats away our self esteem and confidence.

    Again, these facts are based off my own experience and experimenting. I would be interested to hear what everyone else thinks about the list of pros and cons and whether they can relate. Also, feel free to add your own pros and cons list. I would be very interested to see if any atheists experience these same side effects (as I am a Christian and perhaps some of my symptoms result from my own beliefs).

    So for me the cons outweigh the pros and therefore I want to eliminate MO from my life so I can preserve my confidence and self esteem.
     
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  10. Agonist

    Agonist Fapstronaut

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    The cons you listed only exist for the vast majority of men when paired with pornography. I am probably a lot older than many of the guys here (29), so when I first started masturbating, porn wasn't as intense as it is now. It existed, but a lot of websites were dangerous for your computer and there just weren't that many free videos out there in general. Consequently, I spent most of my youth (ages 13-18) masturbating using my imagination. Never once did I experience ANY of the side effects you listed above. In fact, during those years I was the most social and outgoing I've ever been in my life, and I had no problem talking to people or girls. If anything, I had supreme confidence and great social skills. Masturbation never once held me back from being able to date real girls. It wasn't until I started pairing masturbation with pornography over the course of several years in college that I started to develop the side effects you listed.

    Masturbation with pornography causes you to surpass your natural sexual satiety, much in the same way that eating junk food causes you to surpass your natural appetite. If all anyone ate was vegetables and lean cuts of meat, no one would be fat, even if they had a large appetite. The same is true of masturbation without pornography. Assuming you've never seen pornography (let's just imagine a scenario in which it doesn't exist), you might masturbate to release tension and then not masturbate again for a while because you feel satisfied. With porn, you're going to masturbate again much sooner because of the plethora of content and novelty available to you. The cycle repeats, and you over-masturbate because of the virtually limitless supply of stimulating material, much in the same way that unhealthy foods cause sugar/dopamine spikes that keep you coming back for more, leading to eventual obesity.

    As far as having to "hide" it, I don't think this is a problem for most people. You masturbate in the privacy of your own room, bathroom, etc and no one bothers you. Even when I was a teen living under the watchful eyes of my parents, privacy was never an issue for me. That's besides the point.

    I'm not using my own experiences with masturbation as evidence against the argument that it's inherently bad, because my experience doesn't define reality. However, the simple fact is that masturbation is ubiquitous in human history (across all cultures everywhere), and has never resulted in the sorts of problems that it does now UNTIL the advent of high-speed internet pornography.

    Think about it. For most guys, getting laid a lot is the ultimate goal in life. I'm not saying this is RIGHT or VALIDATING this "goal," but you have to acknowledge how common it is. When you watch pornography, your primal brain does not make a distinction between computer screen and real partner. It reacts in the same manner as if you were having a real partner. Therefore, if you look at 100 women in a single porn viewing, you have just accomplished what your brain perceives as the "ultimate goal" (getting laid) 100 times. The amount of pleasure and neurochemical gratification this results in simply cannot be reproduced in real life. This is why you are depressed and anxious, because real life sucks compared to the feeling of sleeping with a hundred women. So whenever you are doing anything besides watching porn, you are subjecting your brain to a stimulus that is orders of magnitude weaker than pornography, resulting in countless negative emotions and lethargy. Masturbation alone can NEVER reproduce this effect.
     
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  11. Jefe Rojo

    Jefe Rojo Fapstronaut

    Thanks for sharing your own experience. You definitely bring up some good points. I guess I was over generalizing the issue based of my first hand experience. Sounds like your experience was completely different than mine. It’s been 74 days since I’ve masturbated and I’ve definitely seen positive results as well. It all comes down to what we want for ourselves. For me M eventually leads to PMO. Maybe if I had never looked at porn (which is pretty much impossible these days) I could have masturbated with the negative side effects. So my goal for the rest of my life is no P or M. I appreciate your thoughts and enjoy reading and conversing about topics such as these. I try to keep an open mind and then decide what is best for me in my own situation. I wish you the best in accomplishing your goals!
     
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  12. Agonist

    Agonist Fapstronaut

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    I agree with you wholeheartedly about masturbation leading to full-blown PMO if you are an addict. That was actually the very first point a made a while back on this thread, and why I argued that masturbation is okay for those who aren't addicted but a really bad idea for those who are. Some people can look at porn occasionally and not develop an addiction, in the same way some people can have a drink or two every weekend and not become an alcoholic. The moment pornography becomes an addiction (really difficult to tell and that's part of what makes it so dangerous), I think masturbation becomes a danger. That's why I don't masturbate while abstaining from porn, and also because it's too easy to fantasize about porn while masturbating. I also wish you the best in accomplishing your goals. Glad we could have a civil discussion without name-calling or hostility.
     
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  13. Jefe Rojo

    Jefe Rojo Fapstronaut

    Thanks, the NoFap community has made a big difference for me this time around. I feel like I’m making actual progress now instead of spinning my wheels.

    I’m glad we could have this discussion too. I think some people allow their own personal beliefs, convictions, and emotions get in the way of engaging in meaningful conversation and being able to look at, and consider, both sides of an issue.
     
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  14. u376

    u376 Fapstronaut

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    I am happy to see this thread
    Fact that I am masturbation free.....is making me feel good
    But f*ck porn.....i am still addicted to that shit
     
  15. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    Yeah our mind do some rationalization, and there are many harmlessness theories of masterbation spreaded around our generation so don't be fooled stay clean read @HMHU article it helps alot.
     
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  16. bakes

    bakes Fapstronaut

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    @Captain A whatever struggles we go through, even though there are many similarities in our addictions (which is why we get to come to this forum by the way: the fact that I can relate to others, and vice-versa), it is still an individual thing. Saying masturbation without porn is bad or not bad, that's not a good idea. It's more complicated than that. Every one has a pattern of addiction, habits he's been using to get the quick fix over and over again. So I like people who have shared about their own experiences and leave it to that. Because in my opinion, I should know my own limits, my own patterns, my own bad habits and try to avoid them to the best of my abilities. It may be quick, it may be slow, but I will get there. If I fool myself into masturbating without porn I will soon realise that it doesn't work. Some people may avoid even trying. It doens't mean it's good or bad. It is just their journey. Maybe you've come to this conclusion and you think it's bad. For you. It's your journey. I may relate. I may not. All is fine. But people who are still in this mindset should discover this for themselves. It is not as black and white as it seems. Otherwise nobody would be here.
     
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  17. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    Yea man you may relate and you may not. But we cannot deny the truth for those who masterbate themselves with or without porn continue this it will harm them (especially internal organs such as kidney) some years from now, other people will try to bash as for our path but sooner or later there are no medicine that will cure bodily illness induced by masterbation whether moderate or not, it will all come down to discipline and this is not just a belief, its health cultivation, there are no black or white on this, no complicated stuff or many explanation or etc.. its just "masterbate" yeah "masterbate" or return life where that thing does not exist, 118 clean days I'm alive no harm, its just some people makes excuses.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  18. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    Some people MASTERBATE.

    But not us..

    Not us..
     
  19. Capt. U

    Capt. U Fapstronaut

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    I agree with you. I support masterbation in terms that you don't do it compuslivley. Our ancestors have been wanking it, respectively for years. Lol
     
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  20. Captain A

    Captain A Fapstronaut

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    You support fapping? You're in nofap right? Your reason is "its in moderation"? Ah so you're another product of harmlessness theory of masterbation. So what is your degree of moderation?
    https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.p...n-rebooting-as-the-best-remedy.135983/page-22
     

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