Intimacy vs Orgasm

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by anewhope, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:22 AM.

  1. anewhope

    anewhope Fapstronaut

    Not a landmark legal case, but a train of thought I've been having. Trigger warning


    To cut what otherwise would be a very long ramble short, for me, sex is about initimacy and orgasm is a frequent pleasant bi-product, not the end goal.

    Most men find it relatively easy to orgasm. We are designed to a fairly basic pattern - stimulation applied directly to our eager member and Bob's your uncle. Men expect to orgasm at the end of sexual encounters with a partner (or indeed without one); that's how they define 'the end'. Proud rigidity becomes sticky flacidity and that's it, show's over, move on, nothing to see. Mr Floppy is not much use for anything, so time to quit and do something else. It is a small step from there to the mindset that has the orgasm as the end-goal of sex. After all, orgasms are great and who doesn't like to cum?? Porn strips any intimacy out of the equation and reinforces this goal-oriented view of sex.

    I find my wife incredibly attractive. And one of the benefits of being together more than 30 years is that she knows my every like and dislike and can play my body like a skilled musician. To put it bluntly, she can bring me to orgasm as quickly or as slowly as she wants, whenever she wants. But for me, making love to her is not about 'getting off', it is about enjoying the journey every much as the final destination. It is the intimacy with her which simultaneously soothes my soul AND gets the pulse racing. It is the joy of the slow kiss, the skin on skin contact and appreciating every curve of her body, her taste, and her intoxicating aroma. I love stimulating her in as many ways as I can think of and helping her climb slowly up the plateau. I love the intimacy that comes from love and trust. I love the fact that she shares every part of her wonderful body with me as an act of love. And to me when she orgasms from my tongue, that is the most intimate, perfect act of all.

    And that is what led me to write this ramble. The last two times we made love were both wonderful experiences that I recall with great pleasure, and I didn't orgasm either time. Both finished in the same way. After half an hour of love making, my wife came with my face buried happily between her legs. Then we snuggled, a tangle of warm limbs wrapped around each other. She was totally relaxed and spent and I felt spiritually fulfilled and gloriously happy from the experience of being at the epicentre of her pleasure. Though she offered to reciprocate - to give me the expected 'happy ending' - I declined. Yes I was still horny and erect, but at that moment, I didn't want to break the spell and was just as happy to hold her and look at her as she closed her eyes and drifted into a contented sleep.

    So initmacy vs orgasm? Ideally both! But if I can only have one, I choose intimacy every time.
     
  2. noexcuses

    noexcuses Fapstronaut

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    In the scenario that you described it still seems like an orgasm signaled the end of the activity. If the encounter happened as described in the trigger section but no orgasm occurred for either party would you still have achieved the level of intimacy that you were seeking?
     
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  3. anewhope

    anewhope Fapstronaut

    Perhaps not. Sharing in my wife's climax was a big part of my feeling so fully connected. I guess what I am saying is that I disagree with the commonly held view that as a man, the only truly satisfying sexual experience I can have is one in which I get to orgasm.

    ANH
     
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  4. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    Brilliantly written. I have but one thing to say about the "happy ending" that I will get to in a moment.
    Please allow me to answer this. YES! Because intimacy is your goal and act. You're not seeking an orgasm for you or her. You follow your partner's ques and respond to what she wants and feels, and needs to feel fulfilled.

    ***TRIGGER WARNING***
    You could just as easily substitute performing oral sex on her with a head to toe warm oil full body massage without even so much as touching her genitals, and accomplish the same goal. The thing you have to remember though is that intimacy of this nature could easily lead to sexual foreplay and thus an orgasm because "sex" is a product of "intimacy".

    There is a difference between her "offering" a happy ending and her "wanting to deliver to you" a happy ending. If this is something she wants, don't deprive her of it. In as much as you enjoy giving over receiving pleasure in a state of intimacy, she too may enjoy that as well. In other words, in a state of intimacy between you, it may be just as important to her to pleasure you as it is you her. Make sense? Just don't deprive her of it if it is what she wants to do out of service to her partner and not out of obligation of reciprocity.
     
  5. anewhope

    anewhope Fapstronaut

    I completely agree that if she wants to give, then I should not deny her that and I should be ready to receive. And on many occasions our love-making is entirely reciprocal. My point is that it doesn't always have to be if you are both able to enjoy all the different physical, emotional and spiritual pleasures that come from true intimacy with someone you love.

    ANH
     
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  6. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    I get it. We're on the same page.
     
  7. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    I love the relationship you have with your wife. :emoji_heart:

    There are times my husband will do the same as you describe...please me without expecting anything in return. That was a difficult concept for me at first, because I was also under the impression that for guys the end goal was an O. He has learned a lot about intimacy since Dday and starting recovery and craves it now. Great post, ANH!
     
  8. Katrina Rose

    Katrina Rose Fapstronaut

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    Jesus. I wish my SO paid any attention to me at all like that.

    *Trigger*




    Our sex life is the same EVERY time. Go down on him til he's ready, and then he goes until he gets off. Always from behind. Never touches me anywhere matter of fact. Not even in the act unless it's to reposition me.
    Hmmm.
    Writing this, like saying it out loud, (I'm not exaggerating when I say I have no friends so I have no one to talk to about ANY of this but you all) I see now that this is really unhealthy.
    I've been thinking about making a T-shirt that says "In a relationship over a year and all I got is a lousy eating disorder, and this crummy T-shirt"
    The last time he gave me a compliment was LAST October. I think the last time he touched any part of my body, aside from my hand or during a hug, was LAST September. He never REALLY kisses me either. Just quick pecks here and there. Never any passion. He wonders why I feel like he thinks I'm disgusting and unattractive. He breaks his neck staring at every girl we see, mostly the teenagers and college girls. Which makes complete sense considering the fancy of his addiction.

    I'm so happy for your wife, and amazed by you!!!! Stories like this give me a little hope that intimacy isn't dead!
     
  9. anewhope

    anewhope Fapstronaut

    Katrina Rose, I am so sorry. That is not making love; it barely qualifies as having sex! That is just him using your body as a substitute for his right hand. For all the notice he is taking of your needs and desires, you might as well be a sex doll or a hole in the wall.

    He may have many good qualities but for him to think that this is an appropriate way to treat you shows just how far down the porn rabbit hole he has fallen. He has no chance of getting better and treating you with proper respect unless and until he quits porn. And he has no chance of doing that unless he really wants to. Quitting a porn habit is really difficult, even if you want to with all your heart. Without a really strong motivator, it just won't happen. Many of the PAs here will talk about having to hit rock-bottom first - to be face to face with some dire consequence if they don't stop. It sounds to me as if he is a long, long way from that.

    The current situation is making you deeply unhappy and threatening your mental and physical health, so I am afraid that you are going to have to make the decision that you have known was coming. Do you try to get him to change, get porn out of his life and be the man that you believe him to be, or do you split from him and look for a partner who is able to treat you with love and respect in every aspect of your life together?

    The decision has to be yours and I don't envy you that choice. You have been on NoFap long enough to know what a hellish rollercoaster journey it is, even for those SOs whose PAs are apparently fully committed to quitting. The stats are against you - a tiny percentage of PAs manage to stay clean forever and each relapse or D-day opens wounds that you hoped were starting to heal.

    Whatever you decide, I wish you all the luck in your world. The time has come for you to put your own wellbeing first.

    ANH
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018 at 12:14 PM
  10. DickMiller45

    DickMiller45 Fapstronaut

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    KR, My initial response to reading the first part of this description was about the same as ANH’s. As I read on, however, I saw something I didn’t quite expect, and I’ll put it out here for whatever it’s worth, if anything. Within my marriage, AFAIK, I am the one with the PA and accompanying intimacy issues, and my wife is the innocent victim. However, outside of the first few months of our 15-1/2 year relationship, it is SHE who doesn’t compliment me, nor touch my body (except my hand or during a hug), nor kiss me or otherwise show any passion.
     
  11. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Fapstronaut

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    Could this be a by-product of your PA and intimacy issues? Could it be that she feels all your attention is directed at other women and pixels and that there is a lack of intimacy from you? Could it be that she has withdrawn her affection from you to protect herself?
     
  12. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    I really like what Alice Eve says in the movie "Crossing Over" She says:
    The point here is, that's the way he is treating you just as @anewhope suggests; a rubber fuck doll.
    THIS! All of THIS! Pay close attention to it!

    I'm glad you're all here.
     
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  13. Katrina Rose

    Katrina Rose Fapstronaut

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    He's "clean". At least as far as Ever Accountable shows. I have noticed though that we'll have sex 3-4 times the week he works Mon to Fri (same as me) but the following week when he has 2 random days off while I'm working we don't have sex at all. Seems VERY suspicious to me. I could just be paranoid as hell too. Likely not.
    Thank you all for the insight. Like I said, writing it "out loud" really put it into perspective for me. And for the first time ever I was hoping he wouldn't touch me this morning. (I have never turned him down and am always more than willing, practically begging most times)
    He does have good qualities and I battle so much inside between saying "screw it I'm done" and recognizing that he IS trying, and that it's hard to erase a 35 year old bad habit. I try to be patient.
    I'm not religious but the family I care for with my job is. She prays every morning and I silently say the same prayer, "please let me be the woman I need to be for my family, whatever that may be" Sometimes it's hard to stay strong and keep my mind focused on my life, aside from his PA. It's all consuming most of the time.
    I know I have to make a final decision soon. Either be fully committed to standing by his side through all of this while taking care of myself, or just walk away. All I know is I don't want to be here on NoFap 5 years from now.
     
  14. GhostWriter

    GhostWriter Fapstronaut

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    RED, RED, RED ALERT! (think Star Trek!). Katrina, I don't know that I ever said this to you, but I say it all the time. "Beware of your "gut instincts", "women's intuition", "sixth sense", or whatever you wish to call it. It is almost always right! Individually, it is a coincidence. Collectively, it paints an easily recognized picture that this puzzle represents". That IS very highly suspicious.
    Yes, compiling a list of these things does work to help you see the overall picture of what's going on in your relationship. Keep on writing.
    Well, that has been my experience with almost all individuals committed to recovery. They were all so highly intelligent, and underneath it all, good people. I have developed some really great friendships in the midst of it. As for being patient, sometimes, we can't be patient enough. But I do know that going through this process, patience is something I learn intimately.
    Even if you aren't religious, you can still be spiritual which you are so demonstrating. Nothing wrong with this. This is good.
    Unfortunately, there is no crystal ball. You can only do what your conscious tells you to do. But as a general rule of thumb if you're interested in the general rule is this:
    • Don't make any major life decisions for a year after discovering the addiction. More recently, I've began to lean toward 1 year post delivery of your Boundaries & Consequences. Because at the end of the day, neither of you have been effectively working toward a solution to the problem, but throwing around bandages all over the place in hopes that some would stick.
    • Don't jump ship when there is an active sail going in the right direction. If he is putting forth the effort, and he slips her or there, try to see the prize, the light at the end of the tunnel, and ignore the obstacles to get there. Of course, if he isn't trying, then insure that is part of your boundaries and execute them accordingly.
    Either way, do this, and I think you can toss aside this NoFap 5 years from now because either A) It will be placed into remission or B) You will have moved on already. BTW 5 years NoFap? If you stick around for that long, I think it's time you give serious consideration to co-dependency.
     
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  15. Katrina Rose

    Katrina Rose Fapstronaut

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    Thank you for this. I often times feel like leaving in the midst of an issue, or when I really think about what we've been through. But I know he is trying, so I have stuck around. I don't want to give up on him. I've been more focused on myself the past few months and that has helped me to keep my footing. My gut tells me he's hiding videos in the garage (where the last box of crap I threw away was) and that on those days he's alone he's binging. I will never accuse him however. Without proof I give him the benefit of the doubt.
    I really wish he would come here. But he never would.
     

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