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Gay sex due to convenience? Warning could be graphic

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by alan, May 28, 2014.

  1. Balderdash

    Balderdash Fapstronaut

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    Also though, this neglects the fact that it's normal for straight males (adolescents normally, but maybe some adults) to fantasise about being bottomed, and it's fairly common, reportedly, for totally straight boys to have (and possibly enjoy) fantasies of this kind. Doesn't make them gay.

    I think it only really becomes an issue when a straight guy acts on a fantasy, however enjoyable or erotic, that doesn't actually match his sexuality, rather than leaving it as a fantasy. This is what fantasies are for; trying out types of sex that we probably can't or won't do in our actual lives and letting it stay in our heads. After I'd been using porn for years I started fantasising sometimes about being bummed by boys my age. Some of the fantasies were fairly hot. Would I ever have done this? No! Because porn put this in my head as an idea, and I know that the reality, for me as a guy who knows he's straight, would be horrible by comparison. Since I've quit porn this sort of fantasy is really disappearing pretty much. This suggests pretty strongly, in my case at least, that the homosexuality/gay desires was/were NOT 'natural'.


    Anyway though, some of what I've written may or may not be helpful for Alan, but I get the feeling that the thread is meant to be more about allowing him space to work things out rather than starting an argument about homosexuality.


    Good luck Alan!
     
  2. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    No, they don't.

    You are conflating sexual orientation with gender identity. They are two separate things.

    Sexual orientation covers sexual desires, feelings, practices and identification.

    Gender identity refers to the complex relationship between sex and gender referring to a person’s experience of self expression in relation to social categories of masculinity or femininity (gender).

    Someones gender identity is the felt subjectivity and has bearing on how someone may express themselves. It has no bearing on their sex or physiology.

    And there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a disorder either.

    So, there's that.

    Citation needed.

    Citation needed.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    And for every one story of success, there are a hundred more that say it didn't do anything.

    So, there's that.

    Confirmation bias and selective reasoning alert!

    You have not defined what you mean by natural.

    But it does not matter that you can't agree because personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Thanks for playing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  3. BossTime

    BossTime Fapstronaut

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    You start by distinguishing between straights and gays, as they are from two separate sexual identities. And then you make the difference between straights having gay fantasies, and normal gays. But what I think is that everybody is born heterosexual, I'd rather say that this is nature, and then people might have gay fantasies, and the difference is in fact between people who keep their fantasies in mind, and others who put them into practice (those are the same who we say they are natural gays). And the problem is that our modern societies who normalize homosexuality help people practice homosexual sex and push them into claiming themselves from the gays rather than helping them fight their mental illness/disorder.
     
    KeenEye likes this.
  4. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    No.

    They are two distinct orientations.

    If you want to go one step further, a scientist by the name of Alfred Kinsey hypothesized that orientation exists on a spectrum.

    No.

    If a heterosexual fantasizes about two people of the same-sex having sex, they are not heterosexual. If you identify as a heterosexual it means you are someone who has sexual desires, feelings or has sex with someone of the opposite sex.

    No.

    There is no such thing, in the context you are using, as a normal gay.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a disorder/mental illness.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    People not having sex or fantasizing does not change a persons orientation.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    Citation needed.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.

    No.

    Homosexuality is not a mental illness/disorder.

    Personal subjective experience is not substantiation. Assertion is not substantiation. Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.

    Asserting something does not make it so.
     
  5. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    Yes. And homosexuality exists in nature.

    Other species exhibit homosexual behavior as well as homosapiens.

    Yes. Male and female are both needed to physically reproduce. That does not mean a gay couple cannot reproduce.

    Yes. Male and female sexual organs are required to reproduce. Some organisms contain both.

    Are you sure?

    Except that it does.

    Perish the thought that people can be treated equally.[​IMG]

    No, you don't.

    Except weather or not it is a choice, scientifically speaking, is a topic of ongoing research.

    Asserting something does not make it so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  6. IGY

    IGY Guest

    I think Balderdash said something helpful...

    Anyway though, some of what I've written may or may not be helpful for Alan, but I get the feeling that the thread is meant to be more about allowing him space to work things out rather than starting an argument about homosexuality.

    So, if you want to have an argument about homosexuality perhaps you could start an off topic thread.
     
  7. BossTime

    BossTime Fapstronaut

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    To Shep : you too make assertions without arguments or proofs =) the final word is to each one's intuition =)

    You say: "People not having sex or fantasizing does not change a persons orientation." But the fact is that I don't consider that there are two different orientations: there is a certain sexual fantasy that can't either take form in sexual acts or not. And this fantasy is not natural, and that is what I consider being the mental disorder.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  8. Balderdash

    Balderdash Fapstronaut

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    Cheers.

    My own views on this are pretty traditional (read: unpopular at the moment!). But I'm not going to give them because they're irrelevant here. To Shep/BossTime/Sham/whoever else: There's a time and place for everything. Not here. Arguing with strangers on the internet can be done in practically any forum. Why here?

    Sorry if I've been a bit blunt or rude to anyone, it's just getting a bit too combative and hostile.

    Friends, everyone?
     
  9. alan

    alan Fapstronaut

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    Yeah I wasn't really looking for a homosexuality argument. So far doing the nofap I've fantasised less about gay sex but I still have something pushing me towards the act.
     
  10. freedomwarrior

    freedomwarrior Fapstronaut

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    Alan,

    I still have my thoughts to share with you when I am at my keyboard. They also may not be popular, so I may just PM you.

    FW
     
  11. alan

    alan Fapstronaut

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    Okay though feel free to just post it here
     
  12. BossTime

    BossTime Fapstronaut

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    If they aren't popular, that is not a reason for not expressing them publicly as long as they don't cause any disrespect, am I wrong?
     
  13. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    Please quote my assertions.

    Not when you make statements of truth regarding sexuality. You can use your intuition to form opinions and feelings about certain things (ie: that homosexuality is disgusting) but that does not hold any bearing on the validity of the truth on your statements nor does it hide the logic you used by which to arrive at such conclusions.

    Assertion is not substantiation. Asserting something to be true does not make it so.

    What you consider is irrelevant. Scientific consensus holds that there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a mental disorder. Scientific consensus holds that homosexuality is as valid an orientation as heterosexuality or any other sexuality someone may identify with.
     
  14. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    What you consider is irrelevant.

    And your fantasy is pure assertion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  15. BossTime

    BossTime Fapstronaut

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    I agree. However, don't I have the right to express my opinion and what I consider is the truth?? If I were agreeing with you, you wouldn't have answered me like you did. In fact your answers are useless.

    Is Pedophilia valid too? Because you are talking about any another sexuality, maybe you meant bisexuality? Because I think it should end here =)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  16. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    Except that if you are going to make assertions without any evidence, I am going to call you on it.

    I say so is not substantiation.
    I feel it is is not substantiation.
    Assertion is not substantiation.
    Naive physical intuition is not substantiation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  17. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    What do you agree on?

    Yes, but what you consider true in this particular case is not in synchronicity with fact or reality.

    I would have replied the same to whoever it was that made the assertions you have made.

    They are only useless to you because they do not fit with what you want to be true.

    The difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is that pedophilia is not consensual. Homosexuality is. Pedophilia is classified as a mental disorder, homosexuality is not.

    Pedophilia is not an orientation. It is the act of exclusive sexual attraction to children generally 11 years and younger.
     
  18. Shep

    Shep Fapstronaut

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    Because you cannot change your orientation. You are clearly attracted to guys as well as girls ... there aint nothing wrong with this. If you fall in love with a man you'd still be on a NoFap journey the same as you would with a girl, right?
     
  19. BossTime

    BossTime Fapstronaut

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    I agree that asserting something doesn't make it true.



    Why not?



    Why not ? Is it just because Pedophilia is not consensual? So a consensual act is necessarily not a mental disorder? Hence Homosexuality is an orientation? I don't see a logic here.
     
  20. Balderdash

    Balderdash Fapstronaut

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    You can't know whether he is or not. The whole point of my earlier post about where the fantasies came from and that sort of thing was an example of how in my case NoFap had started to get rid of fantasies THAT DIDN'T MATCH MY SEXUALITY. To a fairly large extent, porn had changed the way I was wired sexually (had altered my "orientation", if you must). It's perfectly possible that what's pushing him towards the act is the conditioned homosexual desires from porn and from doing gay sex. You can't possibly say he is "clearly attracted to" x y or z when he's still rebooting.

    Dogmatically labeling people who are still rebooting as something that may be for them just a porn induced set of desires is extremely unhelpful. Denying the existence of conditioned sexuality is also just a bit insulting for those of us who've suffered fairly drastic changes that we know don't match who we are or were to begin with just because of a porn addiction spiralling out of control. NoFap can cause our desires to revert to their natural (for each individual) tendencies. If someone is confused about his sexuality then labeling him in the middle of a NoFap streak is not going to be helpful for the brain's rewiring. I say stop trying to convince Alan (or anyone) to 'accept' homosexuality when for all you know these desires may have been conditioned (and it sounds like it to me) and be working their way out of the system.
     
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