1. Welcome to NoFap! We have disabled new forum accounts from being registered for the time being. In the meantime, you can join our weekly accountability groups.
    Dismiss Notice

Do We Have Free Will?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. I don't believe that we do. What do you think?
     
    Ra's Al Ghul likes this.
  2. We have free will in a very limited capacity. In most societies people have some degree of freedom but we are all bound by laws. Laws are good in some ways but it means you are only a free as your leaders feel you shoudl be.

    I live in the US which is supposed to be a free county. For all our comparitive freedoms, we are still forced to participate in a corrupt, oppressive economic system as my government would not allow me to live off of the vast unused land in my country. Unless I go off the grid or full gangster, I'm forced to participate in our labor / tax system on some level so my freedom of lifestyle is severely limited.

    Beyond the laws, most people dont exercise their freedom of action and expression because of Social pressure. This affects the careers people choose , the type of spouse they choose, they way they dress, their religious affiliations and the way they act in public . I saw some guys post on a feminism thread and he said he didnt support feminism personally but feels pressued to act as if he does in public because he fears dissaproval from women.

    If you can think for yourself and put up with negative criticism this allows you to be as free as you can but this is a far cry from actual free will.
     
  3. I dont think our lives are predetermined from start to end. If they are, its so hidden we will never know anyway. But I dont believe that.

    I believe that this reality and existence is constructed in a way that we have our individuality and free will to do everything we want. Its a cornerstone of universe.

    If u want deeper answers, maybe have a look at Budha or other spiritual leaders.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  4. We have free will but we are bound by need and confined by time. Not all possibilities are open to us and we are compelled to act in some capacity simply by existing. We are not truly free in a completely absolute definition of the word but we are free in that we can live above our instincts which is good and bad.
     
  5. I've always viewed freewill as having the ability to do what you ought. If I don't have that ability then how can I be in recovery or even recover?
     
  6. Good response.
     
  7. What's then the purpose of a conscience if such oughts do not exist? How could a conscience exist if oughts do not as well?
     
  8. Can you live and act according to your belief that there is no free will? I don't think you can. You'd have to excuse every behaviour because the offender obviously has no free will, for example. You'd feel confined to suffer through your life like a roller coaster that you cannot control.

    Even if there was no such thing as free will, human beings could not live not believing that they have free will.

    I believe that we are condemned to be free.
     
  9. No offense taken. It doesn't explain why we have a conscience though.
     
  10. No not necessarily. It could just mean ones conscience is poorly formed.

    Regardless, the universal fact that every human being has a conscience gives more weight to theory that there exists an objective moral law we are to answer to. If oughts were subjective then it wouldn't explain why we have a conscience.
     
  11. I agree with your post 100%, I'm in the US too. What about free will to be in control of our own behaviors?

    I don't believe that humans have the ability to just "will" themselves to do something, at any given moment. I think that things like addictions, or compulsions, are shining examples of where this is the case (and this obviously includes PMO addiction). These are times when our behavior is clearly out of our direct control. We cannot "will" ourselves to stop. Instead, the best way to stop an addiction, is to set up "conditions" so that you won't give in to the addiction. You eliminate triggers, environmental cues, etc., so that these things don't influence your behavior. You're kind of trying to "handicap" your chances for successfully abstaining from the behavior, and that's great. This is different from just "willing" not to do the behavior. That's kind of where I'm coming from with this

    I agree that we do appear to ourselves to be free, but that is not the same as actually being free. Whether or not one believes in free will, life will still go on as usual, the world will still operate the same way it usually does, because we can "do no other". As for criminal responsibility, I agree if there is no free will, then criminals are not responsible for their behaviors, but then neither are the behaviors of the judges? It simply works out as a matter of course that we punish and/or rehabilitate criminals, and potentially separate them from society, because that is most beneficial to society.... the responsibility thing is just a cover, in my opinion
     
  12. Absolutely we do.

    I agree with this, however I would also say that technically we all have the free will to do whatever we want, even if it's against the law. There will be punishment for us if we break the law, but they cant technically stop you from exercising your free will to do something that's illegal. I have the free will to murder somebody, technically. But I would be punished for it. So I guess it depends on how you define "free will."
     
  13. I think there are some things we dont have as much control over as others. We are conditioned greatly by our biology, genetics, society, parenting, etc. But I wouldnt say that means we don't have free will. Again, I suppose it depends on your definition of free will.

    Wouldn't you say that's an exception to the rule, though? In most situations in life, we have the ability to choose to do something, and there isnt generally something inside of us that literally stops us. And technically that's not true for addicts either. You absolutely can stop watching porn. There is no magical thing inside your body that's stopping you from making that choice. It's just hard, but it's not impossible. I think in order to argue that you dont have free will, it would have to be impossible.

    That's a dangerous mindset, and I dont believe it's true. I believe what you're really trying to say is that it's too hard to will yourself to stop. But its absolutely not impossible. You CAN do it.

    Arent all of those choices you make with your free will as well? Why is only the act of willing yourself to not do something when its really hard considered "using your free will"? You have to have free will to be able to choose to put boundaries in place and change your environment, as well.

    What would be the point of trying to rehabilitate someone who has no control over themselves? If they didnt choose to do the bad things they do, then what does rehabilitation matter? They could become a saint and it wouldnt matter, because they arent in control of what they do.
     
  14. You do not choose your genes nor the environment you are born into. You can do what you want, but you don't choose your wants. Free will is just an idea. No free will is also just an idea. This is all just the spontaneous flow of existence. Actually, "spontaneous flow of existence" is just an idea too.
    Try to find the moment when you make a choice. Can you find it? In realiy, we just do whatever we do and think up reasons after the fact. If you actually watch yourself instead of being lost in thought, you can learn a lot.
    Seriously. Stop thinking. Just watch your actions and see if you can find free will. You can't! You are being played by the universe. You are absolutely free because you are free from free will.
     
  15. Gotham Outlaw

    Gotham Outlaw Fapstronaut

    579
    3,902
    123
    I believe that we have free will to a certain extent.
     
  16. This would be a distinction between freewill and willpower. You were not born an addict. You became one through your choices which, through repeated acts, became habits which now have caused things like chemical imbalances to severely impact your willpower aka your ability to act freely. You still have freewill, despite your willpower being greatly reduced.

    For humans these times are childhood, emotional breakdowns, or when someone is mentally handicapped.

    Didn't you make the choice to setup such conditions that are conducive to your recovery? Aren't you the one who chooses to follow them every day in order to recover? In all of these things you're exercising your freewill. Just because your willpower isn't as strong to say no right now as it was years before you started your addiction does not mean you do not have freewill. Think of freewill as the brain and heart and willpower as the muscle. You will always have the ability to choose, but that ability is going to seem meaningless without the willpower to follow through. You've heard the phrase "where there is a will, there is a way", correct?

    I would say you're creating an environment which at first is conducive towards recovery for someone who has a dimished willpower. I say at first because I believe willpower can only increase in strength if it is met with resistance, however, like strength training you need to be prudent when increasing resistance or else you're going to severely hurt yourself.

    Have you heard the phrase "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a pigeon"? Probably not. Why? Because it would be ridiculous to walk away with that conclusion. You say this is how humanity acts because it could "do no other" as if there is another way that's going to work. What other way could ensure the dignity and humanity of other humans?

    Also to dismiss the fact that this way of living is universal amongst all humans is to ignore the evidence that it's natural to us. You say the responsibility thing is just a cover but a cover for what? If there is a cover-up then there has to be a motive and if a cover-up is to continue there has to exist the ability to create one and to choose to continue it. Let's also not forget how miraculous it would be for all of humanity to have the same idea for a cover-up; I mean the odds of that happening are impossible.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  17. We have free will, but, we also have consequences to acting or not acting on it.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  18. I'm not denying that we have the appearance of choice. We have the appearance of options. But for each choice that we ultimately make, there are causes (biological, psychological, social, physical, chemical, etc.) that actually determined that choice, in spite of us appearing to make that decision ourselves. I'm not saying that we can't quit addictions, or quit porn, just that there's more to it than using sheer willpower. I am saying that, yes, in all our actions and choices, there are forces that are pushing us to do one thing over another, choose one thing or another, despite the appearance of options. That includes the choice to set boundaries, and change the environment, etc. I'd say that if we get to the point where we are actually overcoming an addiction, then we should consider ourselves lucky that the chain of causes turned out that way. I suppose it depends on luck more than willpower. I am actually going to quote @Randy here because I think he sums things up pretty well and I like his last sentence. Good discussion!

     
  19. DucksInARow

    DucksInARow Fapstronaut

    122
    275
    63
    Choices happen but there is no chooser. The feeling of choice is not the same as the categorical truth of it.

    All phenomena is interrelated and interdependent - There is no separate person or entity who can 'choose' independently of other factors. It's not so much "do I have free will?", but "is there a separate "I" capable of acting independently?". I would say no, if it's dependent then it's not free.

    Choices still happen and the effects thereof. Its all just life playing out with illusory separate entities looking for happiness, ultimately finding it when the illusion of separation dissolves through apparent 'choices' 'willpower' and grace. As many spiritual guides advise us - use your illusion of will till its seen that there is no such thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  20. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I think believing we dont have free will and that it's mostly about luck is dangerous, and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy for you. If you think you cant do something or overcome something because of external forces or something, then you probably won't overcome anything, because you wont bother trying.

    And not only is it dangerous, but I just dont believe it's true. I think we absolutely have free will and can make our own choices in most situations.
     

Share This Page