Do We Have Free Will?

Did he really?

He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. - Ephesians 1:4-5

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. - John 6:44

There doesn't seem to be much free will going on in the verses above.

 

If we go even further back why did God create Lucifer if God knew he would become the devil and bring sin into the world. In my view there are three option: 1) God wanted there to be sin, 2) God doesn't have or has limited foreknowledge or 3) All the parts in the Bible where God shows foreknowledge didn't actually happen.

 

I don't think you understand what the verses are saying.

He chose us

Who made the choice here? He did. Who is he? God

In love he predestined

Predestined - (Of an outcome or course of events) determined in advance by divine will or fate.

It seems to me the verse is saying God chooses who he chooses, those he chooses have no choice.

No one can come to me

Who can come? No one.

unless the Father... draws them

To draw - Pull or move (something) in a specified direction.

What is this direction? Becoming a Christian.
Who is pulling or moving? God.

I could of gotten this wrong but it seems very clear to me that these verses are saying you have no choice in becoming a Christian. There are other verses that say it's a choice but it seems to me the writers of scripture could make up their own minds on this subject. That's one reason why I think the Bible is a complicated book that was written by men that for the most part were just expressing their opinions about God.

I think it's more empowering to believe you have a free will, believing you don't can lead to a destructive lifestyle. It's better to believe things are going to be better even they won't be better. I think we have a limited free will within our determinism.

Maybe you're right. It's always been my assumption that God was the most powerful and knew everything. But maybe I was wrong. But surely a God can't be a God if he has limited power and knowledge?

 

I don’t see how them knowing “why” is a big deal or how their lack of knowing “why” exempts them from being guilty of committing a moral wrong. They walked with God and were given clear instructions from God their creator on what was and wasn’t allowed. Morality isn’t something that exists outside of God since God is Goodness itself. This means anything opposed to His will is bad aka morally wrong. If God said “don’t eat that” then that means to eat would be to oppose His will and to oppose Goodness itself. They didn’t have to know “why” they would die to understand they were doing something wrong.

They didn’t need such experience in order to make the right choice. A doctor doesn’t need to get him/herself sick in order to be a better doctor. Their ignorance of sin, disease, self-loathing, etc didn’t handicap them from making the right decision. In face people burden by those things usually make the wrong decision!

Not all knowledge is considered a gain. Take for example the useless knowledge we “gained” by watching porn. Something is a gain if it contributes to the good of a person. Since they had complete perfection they gained nothing from eating the fruit. The moral of the story is there is nothing good that comes from doing the opposite of what God wills for you since His will has your ultimate good in mind.

There was a difference but it wasn’t a good deference or a beneficial one. Before they ate they were in complete control of their bodily faculties because their body was subjected to the spirit. This is why they felt no shame being naked because they had control over their passions and appetites. After they ate they lost that control which came from grace. This is why it’s called the fall and it’s why St. Paul talks about the flesh which now wars against the spirit. Man is considered fallen now because the order has been reversed where now the body has a greater influence on the spirit which is also why Paul says “the good that I will, I do not do, but the evil that I don’t will that is what I do.” He’s referring to the fallen condition of man. This condition is also why Baptism is necessary, because Baptism restores the soul to being able to receive the graces necessary to bring the body back into subjection by the spirit. That is why it’s called being “born again”. Through baptism we’re born again into the life of grace which was lost by the fall.

The point was LOVE. Love requires trust. This goes back to your “why” question. If they loved God they would have trusted Him,therefore not caring or questioning the “why” of God’s will. There was no reason for them to not trust God either since He hadn’t shown Himself to be untrustworthy. Yet what’s the first thing Satan does? He asks “why”, then he temps them by having them doubt the consequences of their actions, and finally He temps them with the idea of being like God. The same thing happens today when people say “why wouldn’t God want you to have this? ‘There is no hell’ and finally ‘there is no God.”

Furthermore the temptation also shows how a person sins; First comes the temptation, which isn’t a sin until you....entertain the temptation; meaning you take pleasure in thinking about it; and then the final step is where you consent to take the action and commit the act.

 

You might find this information interesting.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm

And this:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

And this:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1083.htm#article2

 

I've touched on this in the hell thread but I'm starting to think that no one will be lost forever since there may not be a hell. One question (or two) that caused me to change my mind is: How would those who loved ones are in hell feel? If someone you love is in hell for eternity will heaven turn into a never-ending living hell for you? But this doesn't make sense since Revelation says there will be no sadness or tears in heaven and it also says people will remember their life on earth so their memory isn't wiped out once in heaven. So maybe instead of hell, there's purgatory where people souls are purified until they're right for heaven. But I don't know. No one really knows what happens after death, we just have theories.

 

according to newtonian physics not only does free will does not exist but everything is completely deterministic and predictable ( if you know the exact position of all the particles in the universe at a particular time and know the laws governing their behavior, then you can exactly predict how they will behave in the future ).
but with quantum randomness the predictability goes out of the window...BUT it still does not give us free will because as far as we know, the quantum events are perfectly random and WE do not have any control over the quantum randomness in our brain... so that does not give free will either.
the only way free will can exist, is if the quantum randomness involved in decision making can be influenced by either the brain or some outside entity like a soul which itself is not bound by the laws of physics governing the universe.
and until now there is no evidence of any entity like a soul.
thats the reason why almost no philosophers and physicists believe in free will.
but then again, tycho brahe believed the earth was stationery ( and his absolutely logical argument was - wouldnt we feel the air move if earth was moving ? but had he known that the atmosphere moves with the earth, he wouldnt have said that ), and nobody before the michellson experiment would have said that the speed of light remains constant irrespective of the speed of the observer. that is just so against common sense and was against the laws of physics of that time.
so, you never know, these philosophers and physicists who don't believe in free will might be wrong too.

 

you should check out stuart hammeroff's ORCH OR model. it refutes the neurobiological experiments which deny free will.

 

so what kind of determinism are you advocating ?

 

the kind of hell you are describing is just a neurochemical imbalance.

 

It's more a weak deternism if that's a thing. The question should probably be more about how much control we have over our own actions. I believe in a mix of a weaker form of determinism and some degree of personal self control. I don't think anyone has total absolute free will over themself.

 

there is no scientific evidence for what you are saying. in your argument you are appealing to authority ( in this case - the bible ). that is considered a fallacious argument.

 

even if you are more than your neurotransmitters ( lets say you are a soul in human body). even then the kind of hell you described, is what the soul ( if it exists ) will experience through the neurochemical imbalances of the brain. it is not the hell most religions talk about ( a fiery pit where bad souls get burnt for eternity )

 

thats one of the biggest problems with the world - people believing without any evidence.
if a person says that fairies and unicorns are real then by your logic you wont be able to refute their claim because according to you no proof is required for believing.

 

you are wrong on the first point - Everything scientific IS logical. logic is the bedrock of the scientific method.
although i do agree that everything religious is not illogical. some religious customs do have good reasons behind them.
this is as much a philosophical argument as a scientific one.
and even philosophers take into account scientific knowledge when they argue
( that is the reason why almost no philosopher believes in free will ).
so saying that science has no role in this argument is not correct.

 

you would be hard pressed to find even ten sane educated people who would agree with that statement.