Discussion on BDSM/kink forum (long & triggers)

Hi all, below is a discussion between myself and a woman on a bdsm/kink/fetish forum about the dangers of edging and the dangers of porn, both relating to porn induced erectile dysfunction (PIED). I want to know your thoughts on the points she makes.

The woman is 54 and identifies and a 'domme' (female dominant).

I'm not in an argument with her and seeking witty responses, I just want to gather a few views from our side of the spectrum.

My opening statement:
I've masturbated, usually to porn, since I was 16 or so. Most of the time I would edge myself- stopping just before cumming so I could make the experience last longer. However, as I grew up, I would often edge for longer periods of time. Sometimes 3-4 hours a night, every other night. It felt amazing and the rush I got was like no other.

However that became an issue about a year ago.

You see, having an orgasm releases a tonne of dopamine (pleasure chemical) in your brain. This release is completed in a few seconds as you orgasm. However, edging keeps you at a state of near-orgasm for hours and hours. The dopamine rush is constantly high and your neurons are going crazy. This is very unnatural. Over the years your brain becomes desensitised. One day I woke up to find I couldn't become aroused at all. When you can't get turned on to masturbate you know something's wrong. It's now taken me over a year of abstinence from porn and edging to start to get my libido back. Bear in mind I'm a young healthy man in good shape. A quick search on the internet reveals many others like me.

My advice if you're going to edge? Do it in moderation. Not every time you wank.

Her: Ah, but it can be done every time if pleasure is limited by a mistress/keyholder, and she commands complete control over the edge - including tying up the sub and edging him very close to the edge. The trick is that this isn't done extremely often, but can be done "every time". A chaste sub using this for a tease will most certainly be sensitized and aroused.

Me: You're missing my point. I edged too much that eventually I lost all libido and couldn't get an erection. Even to masturbate.

It's all harmless until something goes wrong.

many people can edge their life away happily without problems. But if I had these issues as a young, fit, tested, no-meds male then I worry for others in less good shape and who edge way way longer and more often. Just a heads up.

Her:
you may need to change things up some. Perhaps you just need a different sort of porn to get you interested.

Another thing is that while 27 year old men rarely have ED issues, especially those who are not taking meds, there are other general medical problems that can cause these sorts of issues, including diabetes, heart, circulation problems, and probably a whole host of others. It would probably be worthwhile to talk to the doctor about it.

Or, perhaps your brain needs something that would create more dopamine and oxytocin. Perhaps you'd be better off having someone edge you while you were suckling her.

May I ask if you are a religious person?

Me: Thanks but no not religious. Also doctor tests all came back fine. Testosterone and diabetes. I'm confident this is something neurological.
There are many others who have the same problems and who had to quit masturbation and porn until they fix them selves:
http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?board=2…
https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?forums/porn-i…
http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/forum/forums/ere…
And a good summary, worth a watch:


Her:
All of these sites are connected with Reboot

From their rebootnation.org website: "At REBOOT, we welcome people of all faith backgrounds, but we don’t hide the fact that we look at combat trauma from a Biblical perspective. We believe that healing is not found in our advice, but in the transformative power of God. Our job is to connect the hurting with the Healer." Nofap and yourbrainbalanced are associated with rebootnation.

There are many religious and quasi-religious movements to get one to quit masturbation until they "fix" themselves. St. Augustine (354-430) wrote many such things from the (early) Christian perspective, and many of his writings are used today. Kellogg, of cereal fame, had a program that included stopping one from masturbating and discouraging it from starting - one of the many reasons for infantile circumcision in the United States.

I asked because, for one thing, you said, "edge your life away". Okay, so minutes spent in edging will be a minute less for any other activity - like all of those useful minutes spent every year watching football and racing. There are some dangers to edging, certainly, but it's much safer than traveling by automobile or jogging. What is a good use of time to one person may not be to someone else.

Me:
There's a misunderstanding here, don't get me wrong I'd like to edge my life away! I just can't as it's done damage to me. And I don't mean that phrase to mean 'waste' your life edging. I should have re phrased it to enjoy edging for the rest of your life.

Re: religion- I didn't know rebootnation had a religious founding (if that's actually true) but no one on there really cares for that. It's a forum where people who have trouble with porn and ED can help each other out. 99% of the time religion isn't mentioned.

I'm not anti edging that's for sure. I love(d) it! I just think it messed up my reward circuitry in my brain like many others on those forum have mentioned experiencing too.

Her:
Porn and ED are separate things.

There is a long article about ED, its causes, it's diagnosis, various conditions that can cause it - physical and psychological - and how to treat it from the National Institute of Health https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/urolog…

There's an article on WebMD that discusses a study which shows that frequent sex or masturbation can prevent ED. http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/features/…

This study, from 1972, was treating cases of male and female sexual dysfunction in couples using porn. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/00… It showed that it helped, not hurt.

Another peer-reviewed article from 2014 The Emperor Has No Clothes: A Review of the ‘Pornography Addiction’ Modelhttp://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11930-014… In the abstract, they say that they have no evidence that visual sexual stimuli leads to hypersexuality nor to sexual dysfunction, however, there is a very lucrative industry involving "porn addiction" that makes its money off of this erroneous belief. Furthermore, as stress, guilt, religiosity, and self-doubt are psychological factors that lead to ED, it makes for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's pretty clear that men who watch lots of porn tend to feel that their penis is not large enough, which causes a self-esteem problem, which can lead to erectile dysfunction. The "cure" for that is to get some real information about average men and average penis size, and nearly all men will find that they are "normal". They're just not as big as the porn stars!

Me:
this is nothing to do with penis size. If it was a self esteem issue, the guys on the forums I mentioned would be healed in weeks, not years.

And bringing up articles from the 70s is of no benefit at all. The porn medium back then was magazines with still images. Also not everyone had instant access to them. The internet now deliver high speed porn on demand of endless variety, oversaturating our brains. It can be a massive turn on but our brains weren't designed for such an overload.

That page describing what ED is doesn't mention porn once. Why? Because it's a new phenomenon. All the biological and psychological causes for ED it list? I have none. Nor do many others with the sameness issue.

I suggest you look into Gary Wilson's research. (And no he is not religious!)
Here's a list of papers looking at porns effect on the brain:
https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/brain-scan-studies-…

'Porn and ED are separate things'
Independently they are seperate yes. But that's like saying the heat and butter are seperate things- but heat will melt butter.

Look up- porn induced erectile dysfunction (PIED). Where exessive porn use has made normal women in real life not as arousing as what's on a porn site. Edging can really worsen the issue.

Her:
You know, I'm old enough to remember the 1970s and porn. In the early 1970s, going back to the early 1900s, there was porn on motion picture films. We really did have "moving pictures" way back when! Then, there were VCRs, which were simpler to use and less expensive. You could buy or rent these videos. There were also XXX rated movie theaters.

There were line printer porn pictures. They weren't very good resolution, but they go to prove that no matter what medium humans have to work with, we can make porn with it.

Of course, when computers became more capable of rendering images, there were very quickly pornographic images created. Graphics got better, computers got cheaper, computers became "everywhere" - not just in corporate data center computer rooms - and, more porn came about. Along with the improvement and lower cost of computers came the improvement and lower cost of the wide area network - evolving into the Internet.

How about the 2016 article https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/standard-devia… American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT has disavowed itself of "sexual addiction", no longer recommends anything to do with it. " AASECT 1) does not find sufficient empirical evidence to support the classification of sex addiction or porn addiction as a mental health disorder, and 2) does not find the sexual addiction training and treatment methods and educational pedagogies to be adequately informed by accurate human sexuality knowledge."

There's this study by Prause et al where you can read the first page of the summary at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0…

Be sure to look at https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2012/1… Wilson hits all of the criteria!

Humans have been making porn since we were drawing it in charcoal on cave walls. The human race has most certainly not died out, from men somehow burning out sexually from watching too much porn. On the contrary, porn seems to strengthen the desire to have sex. There are plenty of articles, probably more, that say that porn and masturbation lead to stronger, less-controllable urges to have MORE and MORE RISKY sex. It also claims that it's "porn addiction" that leads to not wanting real partners. Those are also junk science. There are plenty of couples who use porn together, and it enhances things.

On edging, even Gary Wilson in his article Why Does the Sex Dry Up in Most Long-Term Relationships? (And What to do About It) suggests using techniques such as Karezza and gentle tantra which do not focus on orgasm but on bonding and lovemaking. Edging is the same thing, but not necessarily with all of the props that go with some of the techniques borrowed from other cultures. There's no need in edging to limit or eliminate your partner's orgasms.

Upon reading the article, I found some scientific claims in it which I know to be 100% wrong. Others which seem dubious.

Now, so much for the studies. I'll tell you my own experiences.

I've been edging (with) partners since the 1980s. I was introduced to it by the book _ESO: Extended Sexual Orgasm_. It works on men and women; the book is written in two halves - how to (edge) a male and how to (edge) a female. It never worked that well when done TO me, but I've loved doing it to partners.

Since getting into male chastity which includes tease and denial - which I use EDGING as part of the tease - often for hours, on a partner who seldom gets to orgasm, or ordering a sub to watch porn of the type I know "turns his crank" beforehand, I can tell you that your so-called PIED does not exist. 50+ year old men get erections as easily as teenagers!

Before I got into this with my IRL sub, when we were mainly having vanilla PIV sex, he was having problems with ED, somewhat-elevated blood pressure, high cholesterol, stress, and frequent general crankiness. He was prescribed ED medications, which had a limited benefit.

Now.... he gets erect at the drop of a hat! It can be from a touch, from a picture, from the written word, from looking at something, from something I say, or almost anything else. When unlocked, he is fully erect in seconds. When we have PIV sex, either for tease or for his occasional release, he stays erect for about as long as we want him to, without ejaculating nor going soft.

Yes, I will sometimes order him to watch porn - either online, VHS tapes, or still pictures. Or, I'll model lingerie for him, and tell him to keep his hands to himself.

The high cholesterol is gone per lab tests from his doctor. High blood pressure has become somewhat-low blood pressure. Stress and crankiness are very much reduced. His desire is to do what he can to please me - around the house, in practical ways, or sexually. I return that with praise and thanks.... I don't always have to be the "mean" dom who cannot be pleased.

Neither of us feels deprived! We very much feel the other loves us and pays attention to us.

Previously, I was in a sexless marriage. That was cruel. I was lonelier than I ever had been while single, even at times when I stopped dating anyone. He was using porn and masturbating, but he told our marriage counselor that he did that because I wasn't "there". Often, I was home! It was too much effort for him to call out or go into the other room to get me. It was laziness. It was part of the whole disinterested scenario. This was not some sort of an "addiction", but rather it was a general disinterest in me as a lover. I'd become a roommate as soon as the ink was dry on the marriage license, and he felt that he had a right to control my sexuality as well - more like, eliminate it. He'd ridicule me if he caught me masturbating. In a year or two, my fantasies became exclusively centered around others - he was no longer anyone to be sexual with. Now, it's the notion in all kink that it be consensual. I never consented to giving up sex!

I've discussed this with others who are or were in sexless marriages. They never come back from this dynamic. It's not a "porn" addiction, but rather it's control of the spouse - especially when the marriages are clinically sexless - under 10 times per year. Mine was more like 4 times per year, for about 2 minutes. He was not "edging". NOT AT ALL He was more like in a JO circle of 1.

I stayed "faithful". I channeled my energies into other things. I became depressed, got on antidepressants, which caused their own set of problems. Other people cheat. Many other people divorce or leave. I stuck around 12 years. If I had it to do over again, it would be "goodbye." in a week or two after he started this nonsense, and had the sexual refusal used as grounds for divorce, sued for darned-near everything, and had it on an official record that he did this.

I've read about the "rebooting" experience that Gary Wilson proposes on his various websites. I've read questions about why they have to stop having sex with their wives, and from women who complain that their husband got into this "reboot" thing, and while it got them away from porn, they are now ignored completely. Like anyone else in a sexless marriage, some of them have left. Some are having affairs. Some are just frustrated asking what the H*** is wrong with them. When they hear it's going to be years, at least, most start looking for an out.

Sex is what makes a marriage different from any other friendship, roommate, or legal contract. When you are cheating with others, you are taking that away from your spouse and giving it to someone else, without their consent. If you exclusively have sex with the other person, you no longer have a marriage. The only difference I see between a man refusing sex with his wife and this "reboot" thing is that there is no "other woman" who he's thrown you over for. In the case of cheating, these can sometimes be brought back when agreements are made, the man sticks to them, and sex and love return to the marriage. When there is no other woman, when he's for some reason decided to not have sex, it is to stay away for years, and this is understood by the woman, she can decide whether to stay in the sexless marriage, cheat, or leave. I suspect that often she's given no information, and she, like I did, spends years trying to make herself sexier for him, trying to regain his interest, and she's rejected. This is nonconsensual bordering on emotional abuse.

It sounds like just one more excuse for refuser men to refuse to have sex. If you're not married nor partnered, great. More power to you! Enjoy your asexuality.

This one, with all of the front groups, associated web sites, looking at, and only looking at the teachings of the founder, seems to have the elements of a cult.