Codependency and PA; gaslighting vs controlling

Yes, because of the context of the thread & what I understand of how victims can feel, I thought you were referring to the SO who was the victim of manipulative behavior. As such, I was speaking about how a victim of gaslighting can feel shame for being a victim, shame for feeling crazy, etc. My words must have seemed strange to you n_n'

This thing is quite complicated even without considering how an addict's shame can play into it alongside these other considerations I put forth from misinterpreting your words XD

I'm inclined to think about the victim first because at the end of the day they are the one who is in the most danger. The PA in regards to this is secondary. They are still important and should be treated fairly and humanely, but it really does fall upon the paradigm of responsibility. They are the ones causing harm. They need to deal with that.

"In sickness and in health" doesn't mean becoming a doormat so the PA can feel good. The PA needs to know the harm they are doing. How to get past their shame to reach them...well, that's a whole other matter.

When you are dealing with someone who has been telling you they are questioning their sanity, your words can become like a lifeline to them.

They are always responsible for what they do, but so are we responsible for our advice to them. To not understand this is just irresponsibility.

In an extreme example to make the intentions of my words clear, say there is someone who is asking if they should kill themselves and I come along and say, "Yeah man, your life is really worthless and there is no reason for you to hope, so just end it already." Then, the kill themselves.

They are totally responsible for pulling the trigger. But so would I be, to some degree, for pushing an unstable person into doing themselves harm. That is what I am getting at.

In some courts, I could be found criminally liable for saying such a thing. Online bullying towards suicide is illegal for good reasons...

Vulnerable people need to be cared for. Our words can affect others. We need to be aware of that and be responsible for that.

 

Person: "I think you should marry me. I advise it."
PersoN: "Oh yaw great advice. Mwah."
Person leaves.
PersOn: "I mean, you took his advice."
PersoN: "So then why did he leave?"
Because she wasn't very nice. So is she responsible for taking his advice or being a jerk? Is he responsible for giving advice when he is the one being harmed by the one who took his advice?

 

What I was saying is that I feel the heart of the issue of any kind of manipulation concerning addiction, is shame from the addict. I don't believe it has anything do with the person being manipulated.

Giving advice or suggestions is vastly different than bullying. They aren't even close. Telling someone to go kill themselves is not advice and should never be considered as such. That is not a good example.

No one gives perfect advice. What works for some may not work for others. That does not make the advice giver responsible for the choices of the person taking the advice. If that is the case, no one should be offering up any advice to anyone online ever. It is not something that can be policed, nor should it be.

 

Context: The topic I was speaking about is a person questioning their own sanity, they don't know who or what to believe anymore.

They are in a weakened and vulnerable state. It changes everything.

 

I see what you are saying. But at the same time, there is no way to know how someone will take what we say. We can only hope we are doing the best we can to convey what we feel in the best way possible. Due to physical limitations, there will always be room for misinterpretation. It is no one's fault, that's just the way it is.

An example is if someone tells me, advises me, to jump off a cliff. I can interpret that however I want, even in ways they don't intend. In this way it's the same as if I had come up with the idea myself. I would still be an idiot for jumping off a cliff, regardless if the advice was to jump off a cliff or go bungee jumping.

 

How very ignorant to assume someone suffering gaslighting is unstable. Their reality is distorted but to claim they are unstable is what their abusers would like them to believe. If they've started to seek advice, they have become aware of what is going on. They are becoming more aware, not the opposite. Nobody here has said you must leave your gaslighter. However, it is abuse & shouldn't be sugarcoated for fear of ending someone's marriage. If anything, it should help the victim recognize the severity & proper treatment for themselves & spouse. To equate the reality of what gaslighting does to a person to online bullying & suicide is like apples & oranges.

Like hacking someone's phone, stalking them, & etc.... then saying their victim is crazy, delusional, & paranoid because that never happened. That doesn't make the victim unstable, it makes them terrified & left doubting their reality. Terrified & unsure of the world around you does not equal unstable.

 

I've been in crisis before, wanted to kill myself. Once, I attempted it. I know for a fact that when someone is in a loop, nothing is going to get them out except to go against their expectations. If they decide to harm themselves, well, it was a long time coming if they were already in crisis, wasn't it?

 

But people aren't islands, their issues extend into and are connected with other people. Helping anyone needs to take this into account.

My example was imperfect, but I think you actually agree with the points behind them because you draw a conclusion I agree with yet phrased in a different manner.

I think we see each other fairly clearly

So much of this is contextual and the shades to which we apply these principles can vary so much.

Your very words describe what I meant by unstable.

Nonetheless, for some people, these things will equate to what you define unstable as. So I'm not assuming, if anything, I'm cautioning people from making assumptions and to more carefully discern what is happening when presented with these kinds of situations.

We aren't disagreeing, you've misunderstood me.

 

I'm going to pretend you didn't just call me unstable. That's gaslighting at it's highest form.

 

You don't have to pretend, because I didn't.

As I said before, you have misunderstood me.

 

Shit. Addicts gaslight a lot if what I'm thinking is right. Also all people do, period. Mostly to win arguement and build coalitions. To be fair, maybe this is just text book manipulation. In fact what I agree with most in this thread is that the term gaslighting might not need to be a thing. If it is, then it should apply to a very narrow set of circumstance to avoid its confusion with everything else.

The most common example I can think of is the PA lying deliberately about what was said or done and using the overreaction of the other person to describe them as "crazy".

The other way is the SO overreacting out of anger to deliberately create situations that makes the PA look like a heinous abuser, irresponsible or discredit their reputation to friends and family so they appear "crazy".

Oh no, another squishy word...overreact! What is that suppose to mean? Also it's not gaslighting if the other person really is "crazy" right to begin with right? Or is it...Does the gaslighting create crazy people? Because if they become legitimately crazy then what? Is the gaslighter wrong to call them crazy? Good God I truly hope this shit doesn't happen to people it seems like the scariest thing I can imagine.

 

It does happen Max.

It’s why I try to be careful with the distinction between insane and unstable. Because almost no one who goes through that kind of thing is going to be stable, they should not be confused with being mentally ill. When people are that hurt, they are not going to act their true, normal, stable selves because the gaslighter can be very effective in destabilizing a person through their manipulation. When you make someone that afraid, the fear and terror can be overwhelming, it can feel like the earth is going to open up and swallow them. Because when you begin to lose the ground you believe you can stand on, making healthy confrontations just so often doesn’t happen. So when the victim displays unstable behaviour as result of having their emotional stability eroded, the insult is added to injury by then calling that insane or with other tactics to further drive the victim into the hole.

My family has tried to have me put in psych wards. When the police show up to escort you away to a white padded room, you begin to understand just how real this is. Being able to articulate my unstable behaviour as a construct of abuse, hurt and pain is part of what saved me from being locked away.

I say that because in the past, my family did this at other times and I was not able to articulate the mechanisms behind my unstable behaviour, was wrongfully considered insane by a psychiatrist and was confined and drugged.

These things can turn into a horror story.

 

Absolutely! The whole thing sounds like a nightmare you can't escape. People who gaslight surely make it to a special circle of Hell.

 

I find it really crazy that anyone would say that they aren't responsible for the advice they give to others. Please rethink that before you go out into the world giving advice. Words are extremely important and can do so much good, or so much harm. You are ABSOLUTELY responsible for your words of advice to others.

 

I am constantly amazed and awed that despite horrific events in the relationships I read about on this site, many of the people on this thread have been able to evaluate their behaviors and the behaviors of others and heal. Thanks for sharing.

 

I think we come from different perspectives, but we are doing the same thing. We are both putting ourselves in someone else's shoes, but you're putting yourself in the manipulated person's shoes and I'm putting myself in the shoes of the manipulator.

Either way, it's always a good idea to try to see new perspectives and understand people.

 

I think you are being a bit dramatic and twisting my words into something they aren't. Of course people are responsible for the things they say and advice they give. What they are not responsible for is what others do with those words of advice. It is the responsibility of the person receiving the advice to decide what to do with it and ultimately how to handle their own live and their own decisions. So someone gave you advice that turned out to be bad advice. You have a brain, you have logic, you have cognitive ability. You decide what to do with the things that people tell you. You decide what is best for you and your situation. Glean what you can and throw the rest away.

Everyday on these forums I see some of the shittiest advice I've ever read and some of the best advice I've ever read, sometimes in the same thread. The reader has a personal responsibility to decide which is right for them and build off of it, but whatever they decide, that decision is on them, not the person offering advice. The reader made the decision to act, no one else. Someone can say, "Hey man, this is what worked in my relationship..." so the next person goes home and attempts the same thing, but it has the opposite effect. Is that the fault of the person saying it worked for them? Absolutely not.

Know yourself, know your partner, take responsibility for your own actions.