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A discussion on the sinfulness of topics such as fornication (Carryover from the main forums)

For Fapstronauts of the Catholic Christian Faith

  1. sparkywantsnoPMO

    sparkywantsnoPMO NoFap Moderator & Yeoman

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    A discussion began at this thread: https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/religious-girlfriend-wouldnt-have-sex.124587/

    To summarize, the OP is an "athiest hindu" and his gf is Roman Catholic. The OP was upset that the gf was remaining chaste outside of marriage.

    At some point the discussion turned to how wrong it should be, and whether other sexual acts should be okay with her. After the catechism was referenced, there was an objection to whether or not that should be gravely sinful, as it's not in the 10 commandments.

    I'll open with some key quotes from the original conversation:

    The Catechism Part III, section 2, chapter 2, article 6 discusses the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm) In the opening, it immediately quotes, Mt 5:27-28, where Jesus states, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." This is the basis with which the Church goes on to define what falls under this commandment.

    Paragraph 2353 states:
    Now I'll address the questions "If there's 2 people that like eachother and decide to have sex, do you think god is gonna be pissed? You have sex before marriage and then you can't get into heaven, you go to hell?"

    The catechism goes into great detail on defining sin: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm. If a sin is mortal, it destroys charity in the heart of a man. On the other hand, venial sin damages the relationship but does not destroy it. A mortal sin is defined as: "1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: 'Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.'" So if the Christian commits fornication and does so with full knowledge that it is sinful, and chooses to do it anyway, then if the person dies without repenting the sin and reconciling, then their soul is in danger.

    To emphasize, thankfully God give the opportunity to use the Sacrament of reconciliation to deal with the eternal consequences. That of course does not mean there are not temporal consequences that will remain (such as dealing with increased temptations, STDs/STIs, pregnancy, etc.). Ultimately though, Church teaching is very clear on this matter.

    On to the other topic of "She can do more than cuddling/kissing. Any regular everyday Christian would agree with this (just no sex) unless they were super into it. I know Christian ladies that don't believe in sex before marriage. But theyll go down on you."

    First note: All Christian still commit sins. Becoming Christian does not make one perfect. Lk 13:22-30 discusses where Jesus makes it clear that one should strive to enter through the "narrow door", lest they be told, "I do not know where [you] are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!"

    CCC 2351:
    There are numerous documents that cover this in detail, and as such oral sex is clearly defined as a lustful act, particularly when carried to orgasm, as it is isolated from procreative and unitive purposes. Some modern apologetics resources cover that oral sex may have some permissibility when used only as foreplay (not causing [particularly male] orgasm) within a marriage when the act ultimately ends with a PIV orgasm open to life. There is presently much discussion on this, so it will likely be a while before the teachings are fully solidified on this point.

    Even if one discounts all the clearly defined principles above, we can apply common reason to this. We do accept that adultery is sinful. We can accept that having sex outside of marriage has many problems - STDs/STIs, pregnancy, and so on, which are the same problems that arise in adultery. Other sexual actions, such as mutual masturbation and oral sex, are also problematic because they blur the clearly defined line between the okay and not okay. It's not uncommon for people to cave and have sexual intercourse, "because they've already been doing everything else." It doesn't happen in every case, but it's much more difficult to resist the urge for sex when both people are already naked, aroused, etc.
     
    knighterrant likes this.

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