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Bonding

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by fuzzywaz, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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    My SO is on day 12 of hardmode. It seems to be going well. We have been doing FANOS most evenings and are tying to make time for at least a quick cuddle as well.

    At some point we are hoping to try the Karezza and some naked cuddling. My SO is a little worried about it at this point. Our sexlife was pretty active and there were no problems with ED, so he is worried that something like naked cuddling would be difficult at this point.

    Neither of us want to do anything that might compromise his recovery or make it more difficult in any way. During his last reboot, we reintroduced sex after about 50 days or so.... Shortly after he relapsed with the chaser. Although I think he is approaching things a bit more seriously this time, I don't want to put him in a position where he is having to work harder than he would otherwise.

    For those of you who have used these bonding tools during reboot, can you offer any practical advice? When did you introduce them? Did it make your urges worse? Did it lead to a relapse? Thanks :)
     
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  2. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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  3. I read your post, but I didn't reply at first because you were obviously asking for a second opinion on my advice on your other thread. Both @ILoathePorn / @ILoathePwife and me started with cuddling very early, and I'm positive that it helped me (and them) immensely. I recall an occasion where reducing the cuddling led to some serious urges. You don't have to start with naked cuddling right away, only if you're both able to keep it completely non-sexual. No touching of the naughty parts, no grinding, nothing. Experiment and take it slow, especially with Karezza. We introduced Karezza after 1-2 months, when I was positive that I was not haunted by P-fantasies any more.
     
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  4. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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    hmmmm that's interesting that you noted a reduction in cuddling led to more urges.... I know my partner's P use escalated when we started having kids and I wasn't as available as I had been in the past. And then of course the more P led to even less connection and it began a pretty vicious cycle. By the time things had settled down after the super-needy-baby phase with our second, porn had already drove a pretty deep wedge between us. :(

    It's hard to find the time right now to even cuddle... the older two are in bed by about 7:30 but the little one is only 7 weeks, and is nursing nonstop. I talked about my need for closeness in FANOS last night and I really think we need to figure out a way of getting in some cuddling before bed, even if it is just 10 mins for now.
     
  5. ILoathePorn

    ILoathePorn Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    I will write more about this later as I don't have the time now. It was a positive thing for me. Sorry for the short answer. I will expand on this later today or tomorrow morning is. Thanks for understanding.
     
  6. Meshuga

    Meshuga Fapstronaut

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    Just an idea; the PMO cycle is about dopamine (motivation, reward), but it bypasses physical contact which produces oxytocin (bonding). Real life sex awards both, but addicts have had too much of one and not enough of the other, so we are way off balance. Cuddling boosts oxy without the rush of dope, which could help balance.

    Your husband has expressed some dismay at losing porn, which is normal. Incomprehensible as it might sound to a non-addict, we perceive that we got something positive out of it and are painfully conscious of the void when we swear off of it. He has been told that he's better off without it, but it definitely does not feel that way. Especially not in the early stages. Cuddling and oxytocin may be exactly what he needs to learn this for himself; the joy of marriage and trust is superior to the cycle of urge/gratification/numbness.
    One of the things in shortest supply for an addict at this stage is hope. At this point, addiction is perhaps not the ideal place to be, but it is a known quantity, it's easy, and the benefits are assured. It feels like giving up porn is a terrible cost for a high risk. In that state, the gains seem small and uncertain. Oxytocin can help.

    I would just be cautious that it doesn't become a back door for dopamine. If he associates cuddling with foreplay, it could slow the recovery.
     
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  7. ILoathePorn

    ILoathePorn Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    @fuzzywaz here is my take on Karezza. I put spoiler tags around it because I know everyone is in different places with their reboot and I don't want to cause anyone to have a relapse. It is pretty mild but I just wanted to be on the safe side.

    This is what karezza has done for me. It has allowed both of us to slow down when being intimate with each other and enjoy each other more. It has allowed both of us to take the focus off of the end game, since there is no end game. It helps to rewire the brain to thinking that you aren't just doing this for the satisfaction, but to learn how to please each other in different ways. The PMO addict is so used to that instant gratification that that is the only thing the brain is really thinking. By doing karezza we both were able to experience heightened sensations everywhere. It wasn't just in the one place. We both grew a new appreciation for each other. We both wanted to please each other and it was more intimate than before, and I will add it was more pleasurable then before. Don't get me wrong we had awesome intimate time together before, but wow, this was a whole new level. We had discovered something that was amazing, more than we ever thought it could be. Not only that, but we didn't want to stop. And because we weren't focused on the end game we didn't have to.

    I will say that at first, I would get images that would pop into my head, which they were already doing that. I had been able to shut them down immediately before we tried Karezza. After a few times of Karezza, that didn't happen. We took it slow. We did naked cuddling first so that way we weren't jumping right into things. We wanted to not only change the way our pattern was, but also how my brain worked. Now my brain doesn't except to see the end game, and it is fun to make out with my wife and have no expectations. There is no pressure for either of us. We enjoy each other and we are not at the point where is the end game does come into play it is no big deal.

    Before or while you are attempting this, his brain and perhaps your brain is going to be telling you hey wait a minute, you aren't done yet. You both tell your brains, yeah we know and that is what we want. We both came to the conclusion that Karezza would help with the rewiring process. It did for us. It allowed us to break free from the constraints of how intimate time should go to how we wanted it to go. Another thing that Karezza helped me with is to stop objectifying women. By helping me to attach emotion to my wife, it helped me to see other women as human beings and not just objects.

    It wasn't very long before the images would stop trying to pop into my head. There were a couple of times where they would come at me full force, but I was able to push them out. After the images, the fantasies started to rear their ugly head. Karezza has helped with those. I still get them trying to worm their way in from time to time, but have been able to shut them down very quickly. All in all, we both owe Karezza a great many thanks. It has helped to return to a very healthy intimate time together. I didn't get to the end game until after 100 and some days.

    That is my take on it and I am sure I am missing some things, but will continue to add here as I think of them.
     
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  8. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Thank you to my husband, @ILoathePorn, for chiming in here. I agree with everything he's said. Here's what I'll add.

    OK, so first, a disclaimer. The way we do karezza isn’t truly karezza. Not the way it’s described in the book at least. It’s only karezza in the sense that we stop short of O. And, in the last several months that’s not true of me, just of my husband. I have been Oing. Regardless, it has helped us immensely.

    I think we did monk mode for only three weeks. I would suggest at least that long or longer. Probably longer if there are concerns. The first time we even just kissed passionately he had a chaser effect and it really scared us both. We then realized it was normal, part of the process and part of rewiring his brain not to expect sex any time he got aroused. Although I've not heard of someone else having a chaser with just kissing, it's usually with sexual contact, but either way.

    I also highly recommend cuddling. During monk mode and after. Again, I look at it as slowly retraining his brain to not expect an instant O with any arousal. We scheduled 30 minutes a day of cuddling and at first it was awkward. I even cried the first time because I felt sad we had deteriorated so far as to need to schedule cuddling. And he felt like an unresponsive stone to me at first. Part him not being attuned to my needs and part me not truly believing he was trying and mentally there with me. I highly recommend cuddling and FANOS, if you aren't already doing that.

    For me, I am SO glad we went with hard mode, no intentional Os for either of us.

    I learned that my MO habits were sucking sexual energy from my marriage and were an unhealthy way to cope with stress. My personal decision has been to save all my Os for him. I've slipped up on that four times now in 150 days whereas he's only ever Oed with me, four times, in 150 days. It was and is harder than I thought it would be to quit! But I'm glad I did. My Os with him are much, much stronger now. On that note, at first our goal was to neither of us O until 90 days. But ironically karezza, at least the way we do it, made my body much, much more easily O from PIV something that had never happened to me before. Maybe a couple times in years and years of sex. He always brought me to O with his fingers.

    Now I can take or leave that one but the PIV Os come so easily for me now we'd have to greatly change our technique, ie, no thrusting or direct touching, to have that not happen. While that's more the spirit of true karezza, we don't want to do that. What we are doing works for us. Oh, and, on my husband's side, he also notices that he has so much more sensitivity and enjoyment throughout sex and in his whole body if he doesn't O. Once he Os, it's just a few seconds of intense pleasure in a localized area and then it's all gone. He Oed with me for the first time in 100 days and he's already ready to not O for a while again because 1. He enjoys the increased sensation and 2. he had a sex dream and fantasies tried to worm their way back into his head so he wants to hold off for a while again. Basically Os, even with me, feeds his addiction and not Oing starves it. Karezza is a way to connect with each other without feeding the addiction.

    I'm glad we went as long as we did with both of us not Oing. From my experience the longer you can hold off from Oing yourself, the more you can learn about your body and what effect Os have on you. For me, it makes me crabby and more clingy/unsure of his love. For about 2 weeks after. For the big bang "little death" clit Os at least. I haven't determined if PIV Os affect me the same way or not. Plus, once we slipped and Oed it was very difficult to get back to not Oing, especially for me.

    Anyway, the point is, karezza been a huge learning experience for us. And so worth it!
     
  9. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    I agree! The way I look at it, it's about retraining his brain not to expect a rush of dopamine every time he's aroused. The chaser, which my husband even had after making out, can be scary and difficult for the addict, but in a way I even learned to see that as part of the process of retraining the brain. The addict's brain is screaming out for dopamine and throwing everything out it can, signaling for it in desperation. Each time the addict can fight through and prevail, the addiction loses some ground. With karezza, the addict doesn't get the huge dose of dopamine that an O brings, which increases chances of success in fighting off a relapse.
     
  10. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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    Thanks everyone for taking the time to share this information and your personal experiences with me, I appreciate it. It sounds like the Karreza and naked cuddling could be really helpful tools in both our recoveries. We actually tried some cuddling on Friday evening, after the kids were in bed and I managed to get the baby to sleep. We had both had a couple glasses of wine and one thing led to another and we ended up having sex.... It was actually really good but i felt very guilty about it after the fact, which is a weird and unfamiliar reaction for me, to having sex with my husband.... It wasn't planned at all and sort of just happened and is obviously going against the plan of hardmode for 90 days.... The rest of the weekend was busy because just he and I and the baby drove a few hours, to close up our cabin for the season, so we had a chance to talk about things during the car ride. He said the sex on friday led to some urges to O again the next day, but by yesterday he felt fairly normal and said the urges for P actually seemed less then before we had sex. I don't know how he will proceed with the recovery from here..... Obviously MO and PMO are not in the equation at all, but I don't know about O from sex with me... He did say that he understands now the Oing everyday is actually probably not a healthy thing and he doesn't think a return to something like that is a good thing.......
     
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  11. Don't feel guilty for it, stuff like that simply happens between people who love each other. He has to be extra wary to any chaser effect up to 7 days after the O now. Just reset the counter and start again.
     
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