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I am freaking out right now. Can anyone chat or do you have advice?

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by desperatehousewife, Sep 5, 2016.

  1. MsPants

    MsPants Guest

    I understand what you are getting at but I do not agree with a couple of your statements. An addict DOES have a choice when they have finally admitted their addiction. They have the choice to indulge in their triggers or decide to fight it. They have the choice to give into their faulty excuses of why they should relapse or they decide to fight it. No one has a gun to their heads (so to speak). I do understand that it is not an easy thing, but they do choose whether or not to slip, knowing it is hurting their relationship. I get that their brains are messed up, but they know it is not the right choice, or they wouldn't hide it.

    As far as how the SO reacts to a relapse, it is not a light topic that can be laughed off as you suggested. It is absolutely ruining the relationship and the SO. Saying something like you said "Oh shit I did it again. But next time it'll be better" maybe works with a single person, but not in a relationship. The addict is choosing P over the SO and the relationship and is destroying the SOs trust, security, respect and love. It can't simply be laughed about in a light hearted moment. The addict needs to FEEL how detrimental their addiction is to the SO and the relationship. If a relapse is laughed off, it sends the message to the addict that they can continue to relapse because it is not affecting anyone else. But it is affecting their SO. Far worse than anyone can imagine. SOs need counselling to heal from this addiction as well. We suffer from PTSD symptoms due to our addicted partners thoughts, actions, attitudes and lack of love and respect. Our self image is destroyed from our partner choosing other women, from cheating on us with P, choosing to indulge in fantasy rather than real life with us, proving to us that they prefer other women to us.

    I do agree with you that the addict needs to dive deep into their past to figure out where the original cause of the addiction lies. Knowing where this all started, for what reason it started and continued is key to finding ways to combat those urges and to cope with the original issues that led them there in the first place. And I also agree that compassion is being supportive, as long as the addict is committed and honest. But many relapses happen and are hidden and the cycle starts again. If the addict is honest with the relapse immediately, it may be easier for the SO to show compassion, but if the addict relapses and doesn't come clean with us, it causes pain for us and a loss of trust that was starting to rebuild because of the lies and secrecy that many addicts engage in to protect themselves.

    Sex addiction is much harder for the SO than any other addiction and deals with two people throughout the relationship, not just the addict. Although your ideas have helped you, it is not as easy for the SO to deal with. The addict must deal with healing themselves and helping the SO heal from the damage they have caused in the relationship. It is not just about the SO being supportive of the addict. The SO needs to be heard and supported as well.
     
  2. apostol

    apostol Fapstronaut

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    Okay I understand what you mean.

    The issue here is that most of the time the SO is accepting the addiction personally. Your're thinking that "if he's using porn then he doesn't like me." "If he keeps watching these other girls then I'm not beautiful enough, sexy enough, good enough to satisfy his needs." "While doing that he doesn't love me and respect me".

    And that's totally not true. I love and respect my gf and now wife but I still did porn. Porn has nothing to do with the relationship and never has. Except that it hurts sex life and lovemaking and it makes you a little bit emotionally numb. Practically we develop our addiction way..way..way before even meeting you. I developed mine in 4th grade - when I was 9-10 years old. At that time i had a problem with stammering and the kids inside of my school and neighborhood ridiculed me and made my life miserable. My parents were not compassionate enough to help me so I got to find a way to feel something good in my life(all this was subconscious situation - as a kid you can't consciously understand what is happening to you). And I started using porn. That's before I even had sperm coming out when I finished.

    Recently(I'm now 29) when I understood that porn is hurting my relationship and my personal life I really tried to stop doing it(even when it was a secret to my girlfriend). But every time that I was alone in front of the PC(my trigger) My hand just went off and opened incognito window and I used porn. I could LITERALLY not control myself. And every time I did that I felt absolutely destroyed. Horrible. Weak.

    Being open about the whole situation with my future wife was crucial. But it was not easy. Even when she understood that it has noting to do with her and our relationship. It was hard to admit that I used porn again. It was hard to admit that I was weak. I can only imagine what the addict in your story feels like when he relapses. Not only he has to admit out loud that he's weak of a person but he also has to endure your reaction about it. And the big difference in my case was that my gf was very cool about it. As I said we really laughed on the fact. And that gave me confidence that I needed that she has trust in me and I'm capable of overcoming the addiction.

    Of course - for you to react like that and to be so cool with it - first you need to trust your partner. You need to be sure he really wants to quit. You need to be sure that he isn't doing it only to make you happy. So the question becomes - do you really trust him on that?

    I am really sorry that you're taking the porn addiction personally and I really think you shouldn't. It has not been about you when he started. And it won't ever be about you if you don't make it so. So I guess if you answer "yes" on the first question the second question becomes - Are you comfortable of overcoming your fears and insecurities about yourself? Are you comfortable in removing yourself from the equation and feeling compassion for what your partner is really going through?
     
    tiberiansun likes this.
  3. tiberiansun

    tiberiansun Fapstronaut

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    With respect, I don't think you're properly respecting the definition of addiction with your judgements. The attitude that PMO addicts neutrally and coldly choose to relapse (since there's no gun to their head?) and therefore deserve eternal scorn is not helpful, neither to you, or your addict-SO.

    I found this link, from a ex-substance addict. If you can empathise with the letter from a substance-abuse perspective, then perhaps you could imagine the same words from a PMO perspective.

    You're hurt. PMO destroys relationships. Substance abuse also destroys relationships. I'm sorry for that.

    I wanted only to offer the observation that you may make it more difficult for you and your addict-SO by adopting unrealistic standards. I'm not defending PMO. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate myself for doing it. I hate myself for being so far unable to escape it. But do you really think we're choosing this rationally? Apostol has a point because if you create an atmosphere that "no relapse is acceptable", then you're going to get what you want: no report of a relapse.

    The whole thing sucks. For you, for us. Yes. Don't vilify your SO if he is trying to change, addiction is addiction. Escape is possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  4. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    There's a misunderstanding here that is taking us away from supporting the OP, @desperatehousewife. We, the SOs, are working, very hard, to support our PMO addicted loved ones. We have shown them love and understanding. But we DO also have the right to protect ourselves by setting boundaries.
     
  5. The added pressure of an ultimatum like that could encourage relapsing behind the significant other's back and not telling them?
     
  6. apostol

    apostol Fapstronaut

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    It would not encourage the relapsing. It would encourage man to go in hiding and secret again. And it would put far bigger negative feelings of himself when he relapses. And feeling negative about yourself is not helping you break from your addiction. Love and compassion is what must drive the healing process.

    I think I'll create another thread on the topic as we've obviously gone off topic on @desperatehousewife's post. I'll invite you in the new thread when I create it but it'll be tomorrow as I'm pretty tired right now :)
     
  7. Mackswell Hope

    Mackswell Hope Fapstronaut

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    Ditto. Some of the above discussion I think involved posters talking past each other - and I think apostol probably meant 'assertive' rather than 'aggressive' in an earlier post. Certainly assertive is the correct word. I would add that you are right to be assertive @desperatehousewife. It is right to be assertive. You have boundaries, they must be respected. And then I think you can take on board some of the other advice - if those boundaries are being respected, and you can trust that there is real commitment to that on an ongoing basis, then hopefully the insights here about us recovering PMO addicts will help [i.e. there were some insights which were effectively about the difference between a relapse in the context of a recovery, and a relapse that is willful and not ok].

    My recovery was initially driven by me and my realisation of how low the addiction had taken me, rather than by my wife, who had nonetheless begun to notice some very negative behaviours. So I don't have much first hand experience of your situation. But where there is denial, and where you're hurt, protecting yourself is important. Control what you can control. Let go of what you can't. Your last few posts seemed to suggest that things had gone back down hill. Whatever may be the case, the best platform for helping others is one of self-respect. So I would suggest you continue to be assertive. For the SO threads I've followed, that ends in one of two ways, both ultimately positive. The PMO addict hits rock bottom and turns his life around with the help of the SO. They slowly work toward a new, deep and abiding love. Or the PMO doesn't hit rock bottom, and the SO moves on to build their own life, bruised for a while, but wiser and still open to real love. But the reality hit to the PMO addict, I suspect, will bury itself somewhere, and provide a greater chance of recovery later. But if it doesn't, it's not your responsibility.

    And all of that's from a PMO addict, who behaved terribly on occasion, and who couldn't have come this far without the love and support of his wife. My best wishes to you. Take care,
     
  8. Marsbar

    Marsbar Fapstronaut

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    Interesting list.. I too fell into the same categories as your SO.. There was a voice constantly screaming in my head, "WTF are you doing??".. But I just couldn't stop. This my first reboot ever and I feel like I am sober, the real world is actually quite amazing! God willing, I have no intention of ever going back. But now I need to deal with the consequences, telling my SO, facing the music.. and it's not going to be easy.
     
  9. WifeInTheDark

    WifeInTheDark Fapstronaut

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    There are a couple bits of misinformation here. Or maybe just misunderstanding.

    Demanding that your SO respect you enough to stop a self- damaging and relationship-killing behavior is NOT an "impossible" standard. While we hate THE LYING about the porn more than the porn itself, these are not toddlers we are interacting with. These are fully grown adults, capable of making life choices every day. If they truly want to change themselves, they CAN. It is fully within their power to do so. Is it hard? Yes. Is it impossible? NO. Expecting them to be a grown human adult person who will not lie to you IS NOT ASKING FOR AN IMPOSSIBLE STANDARD.

    Second, we do NOT vilify someone who is truly WORKING to change. If there is a relapse and it is accompanied by honesty, self-analysis, and a re-dedication to the objective, the relationship can move forward. However, if there are MULTIPLE relapses, a web of lies covering it up, and a clear history of not being truly dedicated to the health of both themselves and their relationship, how can anyone claim that this is a good, healthy, beneficial relationship? That is just round after round of codependency. Nothing good can come from that. Period.
     
  10. apostol

    apostol Fapstronaut

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    @WifeInTheDark If you don't trust him. And he doesn't trust you. And if you don't feel the compassion for his situation and he doesn't feel the compassion for yours. There is no progress. Just two people hiding from each another. The problem here is not relapses, nor porn. The problem is trust issues in your relationship. Period. ;)

    P.S.After the period. Being honest and open and vulnerable requires courage. Being courageous is hard. If you want someone to open up a good strategy is to first open up yourself.
     
  11. i_wanna_get_better1

    i_wanna_get_better1 Fapstronaut

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    As the husband of @WifeInTheDark I can testify to the truth of her words. It was MY responsibility to stop, change, and become a better person. After 17 years of marriage the patience had run out. I had to change or she was gone. After 25 years of addiction I stopped cold turkey. I had too much to lose. I had almost run out of chances. More love, more compassion, more trust, more time, more understanding wasn't the answer. I needed a frying pan to the head to stop... only then could our relationship start to heal. Only when I stopped did I show myself worthy of love, trust, and respect.
     
  12. WifeInTheDark

    WifeInTheDark Fapstronaut

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    It is plain to see that your intentions are without fault. Yes, these are Indeed addicts we are living with. However, your comparison to quitting cold turkey to being as difficult as becoming president of the United States is ludicrous. Clearly you haven't read ENOUGH journals on this site because my husband is certainly NOT alone in conquering his addiction cold turkey.

    Not by a long shot.

    The cold turkey people may not be the standard, but they are out there. It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

    Your permissive, indulgent attitude COULD encourage an addict with the knowledge that, no matter how many times they indulge their baser selves, there will always be a redemption waiting in the wings. If this is the case, why SHOULD THEY give it up at all? Perpetual forgiveness means there are zero consequences for bad behavior. Why take wedding vows at all if you are okay with your spouse seeking sexual gratification with someone else whenever the mood strikes them?!?

    There HAVE TO BE CONSEQUENCES.

    If the relationship can be fixed, IF the person TRULY is repentant and is WORKING HARD DAY AND NIGHT to change, there MAY be forgiveness left in the SO who is dealing with them. But in many relationships, there is just nothing left. Zero. The loss of the higher brain function has reduced the person to pure, animalistic, selfish thinking and actions and they see no real reason or impetus to change. They will easily string you along until one of you hits some kind of rock bottom.

    The innocent SO may wake up one day realizing that they have wasted their life on someone who barely can be bothered to care if they live or die..... Who offers nothing to them in the way of friendship or emotional care. They can find themselves well and truly ALONE living with a "significant other" such as this. And if they are perpetually forgiving and supportive despite a long history of lies and emotional neglect and emotional abuse, they will have diminished their own sense of self until there is nothing left. Who is really benefitting in this kind of scenario? No one.

    Be very, VERY careful of the advice you give to persons supporting an addict. The pendulum can swing too far in EITHER direction.....too permissive may be "easier" and "kinder" to the addict in the short term but can also be absolutely DEVASTATING to the innocent party trying their best to be a loving supportive partner.

    We are here to support both people in this equation. We want the addict to get better and we want their significant other to achieve a happy, healthy emotional state as well.
     
  13. apostol

    apostol Fapstronaut

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    Everyone is worthy of love. If the love is conditional - then the love is not love. Trust and respect is earned I guess.

    I judge from your words - before the 'frying pan' you didn't really want to stop. That was just something that made you decide to really try to stop porn.

    I'm just saying your problem before was not compassion and trust. Your problem was lack of real dedication on your part. And if right now - when you're dedicated - your SO doesn't feel compassion towards you situation - that could be hard on a man's psyche - holding all that tension inside of you - "to not fail".

    And I don't think the whole problem is in you man. The word "admitted" in @WifeInTheDark signature indicates that she still doesn't trust you? But I don't wanna get personal here and start judging people. You do what's best for you and your wife do what's best for her.

    I'm just saying that compassion and love should be the guiding emotions that lead us through the process, not anger and aggressiveness. When the two people are synchronized and working towards the same goal of course.
     
  14. Ted Martin

    Ted Martin Fapstronaut

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    Wait...hold the phone. You are married to @WifeInTheDark? How did I not know that before?! LOL Somehow I missed that connection.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
     
  15. desperatehousewife

    desperatehousewife Fapstronaut

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    Things are pretty bad right now. He PMO'd again and it completely shows in his attitude. He is so angry and ignores me. It's all punctuated by moments of sweetness, but he blames me for staying and says I am responsible for how I feel, and his actions are not (basically skirting responsibility). I do understand that to an extent, but I've gotten so used to the pain that it's become my normal. Not to mention that I really do love him and if he's willing to fight I'll stick around. I just don't like that he won't truly take responsibility for what he has done to me and instead turns every conversation around into how my actions/reactions are bad and that I don't take care of myself by leaving him. This is disastrous. I don't trust him but I don't yet want to leave.
     
    SMK likes this.
  16. SMK

    SMK Guest

    I think he wants you to live happy by leaving an addict like him,on the other side you want to stick around him caring n treating him well.
    What a Love Story! I appreciate it. :)
     
  17. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    I'm so sorry. I wish I could give you a hug!
     
  18. Ted Martin

    Ted Martin Fapstronaut

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    I can tell you from my own story, that that the anger he is expressing and turning things back on your and your actions/reactions is more thank likely from the shame he is feeling. When I was acting out in my addiction I was filled with a ton of shame and self-loathing. I felt like such a failure. That would then come out as anger and disgust at my actions and my self failures and I would put my SO down and be very critical as a result of that shame and anger. I wasn't consciously doing this, but I think in some twisted way I was putting her down as a way to try to make myself feel better or stop the pain I was feeling from the PMO use. I know that doesn't make any sense. Looking back now, it doesn't make sense to me either. It was never going to work. Flawed plan.

    In my opinion, this addiction at it's core is an intimacy disorder. We are all designed and hard wired for intimacy and connection with other people. The problem is we turn to coping mechanism like PMO instead of reaching out to other people to build true healthy connections. We guys turn to these quick fix self-medicating habits because we either don't know how to connect with other people (maybe it was never modeled for us growing up), or we have been hurt in the past (now fear immobilizing us from trying again), or maybe it's the influence of culture that says vulnerability is weakness and guys at all costs are not to be weak. Who knows. But in any case we all long for true connection with other people, but that takes work and is risky. So instead, many of us end up on the path of PMO as quick fix alternative of meeting our needs our self instead of through true intimacy with other people. And then we feel shame for doing and that shame makes us relate other others in inappropriate ways which makes it impossible for us to receive we actually want and desperately need...healthy connection. We end up sabotaging ourselves.

    I can pretty much assure you that when your husband is trying to flip the conversation back on you and your actions/reactions that it is the shame talking as a result of his acting out. My opinion is that he probably desperately wants to connect with you and have intimacy with you but just doesn't know how and is stuck in a rut of trying to meet that need himself. That's easier, less risky, on his terms, when he wants it, gives him full control, etc. He's likely scared too. For me I found that shame and fear go hand in hand.

    I really feel for you and my heart goes out to you for the difficult situation you are in right now and the pain you are experiencing. Hang in there!
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  19. WifeInTheDark

    WifeInTheDark Fapstronaut

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    @Ted Martin has it right. The self loathing makes him feel like he is drowning and why drag you with him. However, the logical part of my brain is asking, if he thinks you need to be apart so that you can be saved, why isn't HE the one that's leaving?? You should have to leave the comforts of home because of HIS bad behavior? Just more evidence of selfish PMO-addict thinking.

    If you DO need to leave, for your own sanity, that would be totally understandable but why is it that as the innocent SO, we are always thinking we need to pack a bag and leave? I made this house nice and comfy for me and my family! Why should I be the one to leave it??

    Sorry, just a passing thought. But in a lot of scenarios that IS the way things generally go down. The person doing their all trying to rescue the relationship ends up with nothing and the addict gets to stay where they are comfy and just not change. There's an injustice there.
     
  20. desperatehousewife

    desperatehousewife Fapstronaut

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    Thank you all so much for your support. Things have been absolutely awful at home and I can't put up with it anymore. I am going out of town this Thursday (thank GOD I can get away for a few days) until next Tuesday. I requested that if he did not get help in the next few days that he have himself and his stuff out of our home. It is a reasonable request as he is behind on every single bill and owes me a significant amount of money, so the rent has been paid this month out of my pocket. He has no rights to the space as far as I am concerned. He has become an absolute monster in the past week and it is due to another binge. I finally feel strong enough to do the right thing for myself. I've put up with the abuse for almost 7 years. I'll be 34 this month and I want to get married at some point, but I absolutely want a baby. The clock is ticking and I'm wasting my life with someone who skates by on everyone else's good graces and contributions, treats me like a nuisance and a roach, and is making no steps to get better. I have my own problems but they are generally contained within. If I drink too much on occasion or smoke cigarettes it is indeed gross, but I'm not making him feel devalued or like a piece of trash in the road. I'm not abusing him; I'm abusing myself on occasion. It's certainly not healthy but I am making steps to better myself, and not being around such a toxic monster is the first one. I'm not playing his game anymore. I love him but I love myself more. If I don't get away from this I have reason to fear for my life, as the anxiety, fear, and anger are literally killing me.
     

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