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Karezza: sex without O

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by ILoathePwife, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Yes. Yes. Yes. All this. I know it's hard for people to think of anything in a different way than the way they think is the right and only way. Sex with orgasm is awesome and sex without orgasm must indicate a problem or a dysfunction. But there are different ways of thinking from our own. For thousands of years, many different cultures have explored or actively promoted sex without orgasm but instead focused on bonding behaviors.

    Think of other examples of the one right and only way to do things. Think of the Danish mom that left her child outside a restaurant in a stroller. Gasp, horror, she's wrong! Well, in her culture it's perfectly normal and the right way to do things. In the end, the child was returned and charges were dropped. There's not only one right way to parent and maybe there's not only one right way to have sex.
     
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  2. Well, it was awful. I regressed to the coldhearted asshole I was prior to my reboot basically. On my next 90 day hard mode reboot now.
     
  3. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Nope. The cold-hearted asshole didn't know he was a cold-hearted asshole and didn't do something to try and change it. I highly recommend you read the book!
     
  4. Diomedes

    Diomedes Fapstronaut

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    Great thanks for introducing the subject and me!

    I'm a complete novice here, but merely reading about this stuff has made my struggle to not PMO a cakewalk. I'm very interested and positively surprised from my and wife's initial try with Karezza last night.
     
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  5. tiberiansun

    tiberiansun Fapstronaut

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    For the guys here, how does karezza affect your procrastination?

    If I understand correctly, Karezza is a form of edging. Although I suppose it is different from P edging in that the coolidge/novelty component is not there. However, a fear I have with Karezza is that it'd keep me thinking more about sex, since the excess dopamine from extensive karezza sessions would be framing my priorities. I'd also worry it might result in frustration if I had more karezza on the mind throughout a day @ work , and then potentially my wife might be too tired.

    At least one benefit I have found from general PMO abstinence is less sexual stimulation just in general makes me focus more on other aspects of life: learning, skills, knowledge, social, etc.

    I'm wondering what people think about whether this has a risk of intensifying the role of sex in our lives?

    ( p.s. I'm absolutely not advocating total abstinence from sex, that's completely wrong in a married couple, but I'm just a bit worried about the whole edging aspect of it and how it might affect my brain)
     
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  6. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Awesome. It helped us so much. We did eventually O, after a month of karezza, but we learned from that too and we're now going to try it again.
     
  7. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    It seems logical that that's what karezza would do, but that was not our experience. My husband @fuckyouporn experienced decreased brain fog and better ability to concentrate at work, less forgetting stuff, (he sure could concentrate better when I talked to him!). I just asked him and he said he did not feel like it made him think constantly of sex.

    I highly recommend you read the book, it does a better job of explaining things. You can also read at http://www.reuniting.info/ and, specifically, http://www.reuniting.info/science.
     
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  8. Diomedes

    Diomedes Fapstronaut

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    I, too, heartily recommend Cupid's Poisoned Arrow. While I wasn't a big fan of the included religious viewpoints, the science of love making is presented in a solid, wholesome way and the exchanges in the back of the book appear practical and easy. Simply put, Karezza makes sense. It might be weird initially, it certainly seems sort of weird to us, when some of the exchanges and bonding behaviors feel like taking care of a baby. And to comfort one's SO in that way is counter intuitive when all we've been taught of adult love is sex and orgasm centric, it feels sort of infantilizing, even if I can understand that is simply a learned association and the distinction is not actually real.

    I also read Alice S. Bunker's Karezza - Ethics of Marriage, but I don't recommend that one. The most I got out of it was that an actual Christian can accept the method and perspective instead of play acting a Gnostic, which was my impression from Robinson's book. It has no practical content and is more of a description of sorts. The actual method is not discussed much at all, being elaborated in a quick way in the book's beginning and then simply ignored.
     
  9. Diomedes

    Diomedes Fapstronaut

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    Too early to comment on that, but I'll revisit the topic when I get more experience.

    From what I gather, not really. At least, getting to the edge is not a goal in Karezza, and that is good, since edging is pretty much as orgasm centered as achieving orgasm. The idea is making love as a completely relaxed and comfortable thing, not to mate to feed the hunger for orgasmic satisfaction. Mating takes effort, it's active. Karezza love making is relaxed and not in a meaningful sense goal oriented, it's passive and effortless.

    Again, that is what I gather from what I've read. We're just on the third day of the exchanges and any sort of genitals touching each other enters the picture after two weeks IIRC, so I can't tell how the practice will actually work. We'll see and I'm quite sure I'll keep the forum updated about our progress for everyone's benefit.
    I'm not sure it's possible to be too tired for Karezza.

    It changes it, but I'm not sure that going toward giving from hungry is what you mean by intensifying.
     
  10. tiberiansun

    tiberiansun Fapstronaut

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  11. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Excellent description.
     
  12. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    @RonTheBear this is the thread about karezza. Go to the first post.
     
  13. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

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  14. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    A quick karezza update. My husband is nearly done with his second attempt at a 90 day no O reboot with karezza. Yay! After that, we'll evaluate and continue if we feel it's necessary.

    A quick observation. Life has been really busy and unfortunately sex has been on the back burner. We just haven't had sex very often lately, which neither of us is happy about. One thing I have noticed is that if we go a couple weeks with no sex and then resume karezza, it's like we're starting over again. First off, it seems to trigger fantasies, which for him, are the last thing he is trying to get out of his head. (Images of P and objectifying women are goals he has mostly been able to be successful with, meaning he doesn't struggle with those much lately.)

    And, for complete transparency, though my husband has not Oed by himself or with me for nearly 90 days, I still am. First, I've stumbled on my goal of no MO four times since we started this journey in May. Doesn't seem like a big deal maybe, but I've learned it does steal from the sexual energy I want to share only with my husband from here on out. How ironic is it that I'm not a PMO addict and it's actually been me that has stumbled on no Os more than my husband? He went 45 days his first attempt and then Oed with me, then almost 90 now. Mind blown.

    Secondly, practicing karezza made it possible for me to have penis in vagina (PIV) Os for the first time in our 12 year marriage. They come so easily now we'd have to hold extremely still if I wanted to abstain from all Os. And we aren't doing that. At first it was also very hard for me not to go for a direct stimulation or clitoral O. Either he would pursue it for me and I didn't stop him or I would ask for one. In our last few sessions neither of us has pursued that and I'm very satisfied and happy with only PIV Os. I'm now trying to determine if those Os, which are wonderful but less intense, less like the "little death" and more waves of pleasure, are as mood altering as the clitoral Os.

    Speaking of mood altering. I have, in the past, written about agreeing with what's in the book, Cupid's Poisoned Arrow, that Os do alter my mood and not in a good way. However, in recent weeks, I haven't noticed that as much. What I do notice is that if my husband and I neglect the connection of our marriage, we don't do FANOS, have little time or energy to talk, we don't make cuddling and sex a priority, THAT'S when my mood is altered. If I feel connected to him, even with small efforts when things are crazy busy, I'm calm and very forgiving. If that connection is thin or gone, I go immediately to that explosively angry place. I may not think it consciously but the root of it is that I am afraid my "old husband" is back, the PMO brain fog version of him. But the good news is, it's now much easier for both of us to recognize our old patterns and get back on track much faster.
     
  15. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    I forgot to say, with me Oing, it's not truly karezza. But regardless it has been a way for us to continue to be intimate while he continues the reboot and doesn't O. And we've learned a lot.
     
  16. TheLoneDanger

    TheLoneDanger Fapstronaut

    I finally clicked on this thread (mainly because holding my phone vertically takes away the signature feature on people's posts and I usually didn't see yours) and what intrigued me most was that you said karezza can help with stamina and erection quality. I tried to skim through all of the posts on this thread as thoroughly as possible, so forgive me if it has already been said. But do you have any theories as to why these performance bonuses might be?

    A little background. I've been interested in karezza for quite some time, even in the midst of my porn and fetish indulgences. The funny thing is that abstaining from O for men is quite a prominent practice in the alternative community. The only difference is that it is often accompanied by teasing and edging. So I had read about karezza and wanted to incorporate this into our bedroom activities. Sometimes we did practice this. Little did I know, we were doing it in a rather damaging way. Once my PIED and PE problems started to arise, karezza became a pipe dream as any E at all would immediately be followed by the challenge of holding back a seemingly inevitable O. The constant threat of PE eliminated that activity.

    It is encouraging news when hearing that karezza can actually enhance performance, but I'm very curious as to how this might work. Whatever the case, I'm certain that I will re-introduce karezza if and when things improve for me.
     
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  17. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    I had this issue for the longest time. A teen at nofap finally explained it to me! haha

    I am no expert, in fact, my husband and I don't even practice it "correctly," so to speak. True karezza, or sex without orgasm, as described by the author of "Cupid's Poisoned Arrow," is gentle intercourse with a big focus on bonding behaviors. The only way my husband and I fit into that these days is that he abstains from orgasm. In other words, although I did for the first month or so, and I am very glad I did, I don't any longer. And gentle isn't exactly the word I use, although it is gentle at times, more vigorous at others, and we do have a lot more tenderness and bonding in our sex life. In addition, practicing karezza led my husband to accidentally, and then later intentionally pursue, orgasms without ejaculation (O without E).

    What I can tell you is our experience and my hunches.

    1. Karezza takes the focus off the almighty O. You're enjoying the whole journey, not frantically working for that end goal. That reduces stress and tension, which I didn't even realize I had until I left it behind.
    2. Without O, sensitivity increases for both. With greater pleasure, well, better erection. :)
    3. I didn't expect karezza to change and expand my orgasmic experience, because, well, that's not exactly the point, but it did. I now have more than one type of orgasm, which results in more pleasure for him.
    Specifically, I used to only orgasm from direct clitoral stimulation. With my increased sensitivity combined with his increased stamina and stronger erection, I now easily orgasm from intercourse, multiple times. This causes contracting in my pelvic muscles and sometimes also gushing, both of which are very pleasurable for him and led to his accidental discovery of O without E. (With the added pleasure plus him working to stop short of O, he clenched his pelvic muscles and Oed without E. He then googled and worked on getting there intentionally. However, it does take a lot of work to get there and seems to be much easier and intense the longer he abstains from O.)
    On my side of the equation, with increased sensitivity I no longer "needed" only hard and fast to feel pleasure and O. It all felt amazing.
    4. It eliminates that "done" feeling at the end of sex. At it's worst, the done feeling results in a lack of interest in giving pleasure to the other party, who may not be done yet, as well as lack of interest in continued cuddling and conversation. You know, that old, roll over and fall asleep thing.
    With karezza, if neither party orgasms, it can go on for hours. I'm totally serious. You can stop, talk for a while, and then start up again. When I started Os again, I could definitely tell the difference. His continued attention started to feel annoying or even frustrating.
    Without the done feeling, your interest in sex goes up. We went through phases where we had sex daily for about a week. The done feeling never happened so it increased desire to keep having sex.

    To sum up, everyone is more relaxed, enjoying even the subtle sensations rather than focusing only on the big finish, everyone's sensitivity increases and nobody feels the need to wrap up in any sort of a hurry. A great recipe for sexual success!

    I've been asked about this before. From my view, a chastity kink or just edging for hours, is much, much different than having healthy sex with a loving partner. Let's focus on edging. It's typically done while alone and watching porn or at least fantasizing, correct? With karezza we felt we were training my husband's brain to crave sex with a real person. Sex that was not selfish, but generous and loving. In my husband's case, he's working to get all fantasies out of his head, and making good progress, so he is totally focused on me, not on anything porn related.

    I want to make sure I understand. "E at all would immediately be followed by the challenge of holding back a seemingly inevitable O." Do you mean any ejaculation or do you mean that if you had intercourse you would have a very hard time not orgasming?

    On doing it in a damaging way, it's certainly possible. However, not knowing the details, I'm wondering if the damage actually came from somewhere else. Were you still watching porn and/or fantasizing? Could that have been the source of the actual problem and the karezza came at the same time but maybe wasn't the cause?

    Some final thoughts. My husband and I continue to go back to karezza because when he Os with E, we both notice the return of the brain fog. Not all the way back, but it does appear to get worse if he continues to O. Karezza, even with O without E, does not cause that problem.

    We have also noticed that when he does O, it can be very, very hard to get back to karezza, even when we know logically that it benefits both of us. The books says there's an about two week period of O hangover for most people and we agree. And, even once he starts abstaining from Os again, it takes quite a while, maybe weeks, to get back to that place of ramped up sensitivity to start working on Os without E. It would likely help us if we would take a step back from more traditional vigorous sex and get back to gentle intercourse, as the book advocates for. But we continue to push boundaries on that. It's fun, but risky, because we keep falling off the karezza wagon and, like I already said, it takes a while to get back there.

    Best of luck! I hope it helps you as much as it has helped us. Karezza rocks and it's no sacrifice! (That's so hard for people to understand but very true.)
     
  18. TheLoneDanger

    TheLoneDanger Fapstronaut

    Thanks for the very informative reply. Sorry, when I said "E", I meant erection. Sometimes I forget what each letter actually stands for, lol. So basically PIED got to the point where any erection at all came from heavy fantasy and manual stimulation, and by that time, I was already close to O. This is why karezza wasn't going to work. And yes, this was also while I was still watching porn heavily, but even in my current 40 days of reboot, I'm not exactly to the point where I can be inside of her for very long at all. But it's slowly (very slowly) improving. So yes, the problems occurred by porn addiction made this extremely difficult to nearly impossible. Some day, though.
     
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  19. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    OK no problem. That's basically what I was guessing you meant but I wasn't sure.

    My personal opinion is that fantasies are as bad as actually watching porn. My husband gave up porn seven years ago, with a few short term relapses, but the brain fog continued with just fantasy and MO. Just stopping watching porn didn't do any favors for our relationship until he also gave up MO, fantasies and objectifying women. We also started doing FANOS and karezza. My point being, if you're not already working to cut out fantasy, especially during sex, I highly recommend it. Put the focus on getting pleasure from her body.

    Also, not to push you, but I personally think you could introduce it now as a means to lengthen the time you can remain hard inside your wife. You could try soft entry with no thrusting. If you practice two separate strategies, see which works better, total relaxation or clenching pelvic muscles to stop O, karezza could be an excercise, literally, in getting hard from being inside her only (no fantasy, no hands, no mouth) and staying hard for longer. If you're not going to O, it doesn't matter at all if you don't get hard or close to O. Progress, I think, could be measured by any pleasure you feel or any slight growth while inside her.

    If she's not interested in abstaining from O you could spend all the time you wanted on giving her what she needs. But make the focus less about getting her to O and more about the whole journey. Massage, naked cuddling, hands lightly stroking the whole body not just the zones. If any of that, including getting her to O, gets you worked up I'd suggest doing it after you try soft entry with no thrusting. (Which I have read is possible but it's not something we've even tried.) Then you could try it again after she has Oed (but again, at that point she'll be dealing with the done feeling) to see if vaginal contractions or her purposely squeezing her pelvic muscles, again, minus hand or mouth stimulation for you, is enough to get you hard.

    Basically, you'd be training your body to 1. Get hard from vaginal contact only. And 2. Stay hard for longer.

    Of course, all that takes having your wife on board. Maybe she would be without her knowing about your porn addiction and reboot efforts but it seems it would make more sense if she was in the know. But I'm not going to put my focus on convincing you of that.

    There's a link I suggest you read. I'm on my phone so posting this and then will find it to add it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
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  20. ILoathePwife

    ILoathePwife Fapstronaut

    Ha! It's been a while since I read the link and we don't practice it this way so the advice diverges from mine. Anyway, I think you should read this.

    http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_four_easy_steps

    It's a very slow, long term approach and that may feel overwhelming, but I think even if you don't follow it by the letter you could get ideas from there. On the other hand, maybe what you need is exactly the slow approach.

    Here's another one but it could be somewhat triggering. (How ironic, huh, reading about techniques to not O makes us want to O. Haha.)
    http://www.reuniting.info/node/7179

    Best of luck!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
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