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The Extraordinary Form

For Fapstronauts of the Catholic Christian Faith

  1. What are your thoughts on the Latin mass? I experienced it a month or so ago. Confession prior to mass and then the Latin mass. It wasn't SSPX or anything but very traditional.

    There was a communion rail. I had mixed feelings. The reception of communion felt less reverent then my home church despite there being a rail. Anywho, thoughts?
     
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  2. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    I like the Latin Mass. Oddly, the only experience I have of it is a private Mass. What I like about it is the better prayers, greater contemplation, and greater sense of transcendence. The only reason I don’t attend one regularly is my parish doesn’t offer one and, when I converted, I decided I didn’t want to still be like a Protestant driving past twenty churches on the way to the one I attend.

    The Novus Ordo Mass can be well done, but my experience is it is often not. For instance, most Masses I experience they don’t say the Roman Canon (Eucharist Prayer I). This is the oldest Eucharistic prayer whereas the others are modern inventions. The Roman Canon makes clear the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    Most Masses I experience don’t use the all the prayers of the Church but substitute them with Protestant hymns. I mean there are antiphons, sequences, and old Catholic hymns. But it as if they didn’t exist in my experience.

    I really like Latin. I think there is a lot to be said for having a liturgical language. This way anywhere you go you experience the same Mass. We see the problems of vernacular with the abomination known as a bilingual Mass. Those exists to make sure not half the people or a quarter but that everyone is dissatisfied. Apparently not knowing the language of the Mass is just fine if the language being used is Spanish. Privately I prayer as many prayers as I know in Latin.
     
  3. I'm lucky that my local church happens to be the Cathedral and is run by a pretty conservative rector. We almost always (99% of the time) do the Gloria in Latin and the music is without exception the classical sequences and old catholic hymns or there is no music. He took a 3 month sabbatical to learn the Latin mass and I assume will offer it shortly as an option. Incense is used at every mass as well.

    I sincerely think all of this is important and actually evangelizes to Catholics and unbelievers alike. I grew up in a very "watered down" Catholic church and the effect was a tepid faith for most of my life. In fact at the church I'm at now was the only church I've ever been denied absolution. It was a wake up call and I personally thanked the priest a year later for having the courage to do what he did. There should be more priests like him.
     
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  4. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    The baby boomer priests are retiring or dying. The new crop of priests will return us to authentic Catholicism. The watered down faith is not one that products martyrs or changes culture.

    Incense is only used at my parish on Maundy Thursday. I believe it is required for that Mass.

    A metaphorical slap in the face during confession is good from time to time. I’ve received a few of those.
     
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  5. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    I am in our church choir, and I feel like our director is trying to navigate between her personal preferences, those of the choir members and those of the parish as a whole. She has been introducing some more traditional hymns since she began leading us, but has also pulled in some contemporary songs. Some of those I kind of like, but there are some that just make me want to throw up. Still, I feel like the music made by newer Catholic artists today (e.g. Matt Maher) is generally a lot better than the songs that were introduced in the 1970s and 1980s by David Haas, Marty Haugen and company.

    I HATE the bilingual (sometimes trilingual) Mass! To be honest, as bad as we are at capturing the intended meaning of various parts of the Mass with today's music sung in English, it seems to me that it is often even worse at the Spanish Masses.

    Yes, I think most of us did these days. I feel like the tied is turning, but a certain pontiff seems to embody the baby-boomer priest mentality.

    Ironically, the one time I was almost denied absolution, it was by a liberal priest who didn't think it was healthy to go to confession more than once every couple of months. He made this point before hearing any of my actual confession and forbade me from confessing anything habitual in nature. I wasn't entirely sure how valid the confession ultimately was, since I didn't withhold any sins but was forbidden from confessing one of grave matter.
     
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  6. WOW! This is crazy to me. Some religious orders go to confession and mass daily! How ridiculous! I wouldn't worry about valid in this case. The millstone gets hung on the other neck in my opinion.

    If you feel bad about it though there is no rule against confessing sins of the past at different times. Sometimes I do that and just let the priest know I have confessed them previously or forgot at different times.
     
  7. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    Anything is better than those two.

    Yeah, I’d rather go to a Spanish Mass than a bilingual Mass.

    Regarding English, I wonder if our Pater Noster is in danger like the Italian? That is another plug for Latin, not having to worry about the translations.
     
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  8. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    I brought it up the next time I went to confession, which was at an abbey, not the parish where this had happened. The priest I spoke to about this was alarmed and wanted to make sure this hadn't happened at his abbey.
     
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  9. I love the Tridentine Mass. It’s rubrics and form remind me of the scriptures where God gives His specifics on how His people should worship Him. I also love how everything points to the reality that you’re at the Cross. Most fondly call it the Latin Mass but the Mass has a small amount of Greek and Hebrew; the three languages that were present above the cross where it was written “Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews”.
     
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  10. I thought I would also add that I’m not against the OF either. The liturgy is a living thing and as such it lives and grows. I think the problem pre and post Vatican II is that the Church has been divided into two groups: one which thinks everything must change and the other which thinks nothing should change when it comes to liturgical rubrics/practices. I think both are wrong in their views. I’m also fond of the Eastern Rite and how the do holy communion in the Divine Liturgy; including their custom of having children receive the Eucharist right away after baptism, regardless of age. I think the Western Rite should follow this practice as well.
     
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  11. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    One of the issues for me is the question of who should be changing things. It shouldn't be the parish's liturgical director or even the priest saying the Mass. Neither has that authority. When everyone is just changing whatever they feel like changing just to see what happens, the meaning of various actions in the Mass often gets lost. For example, prior to the update to the translation of the liturgy here in the United States a few years ago, choirs would often extend the Agnus Dei by throwing in other phrases, such as "Fire of Love, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us." Instead of emphasizing Jesus as the sacrificial lamb who died for our sins, the whole thing seemed to turn into a compliment fest for Jesus. Nothing wrong with praising Jesus, but that wasn't the point of that moment in the liturgy. Fortunately, that error seems to have been corrected everywhere I have been to Mass in recent years, but my pastor (who didn't grow up Catholic and, IMO, lacks a sense of the importance of tradition and the rubrics) is constantly tweaking other things. I find it really irritating that he thinks he knows better than everyone else how the Mass ought to be said.
     
  12. Well put! This adds to why I love the EF since it's rubrics do not allow the priest to make the Mass his own personal Mass nor did it allow the lay people to do the same, which was the point of it's rubrics. We go to Mass to empty ourselves of ourselves so we can properly receive Christ and let Him live through us. In the EF the rubrics allow the priest to not take control of the Mass but to allow Christ to take control of him. The actions performed are not the priests but the priest working in Persona Christi. This gift has so much been lost in the OF.
     
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  13. I have never actually gotten to experience one, but luckily several parishes around where I live offer them, so I am planning on going one of these days.
     
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  14. DeProfundis

    DeProfundis Fapstronaut

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    The language barrier takes quite some effort to overcome but even by reading translations of the prayers I am constantly amazed by the sober beauty of the text. It is simply, Catholic. There is no modern sugarcoating in the prayers to make you feel nice and comfortable as you are. The prayers are constantly calling us to repentance and asking for God's grace in doing so.

    Everything is centered on conversion to Christ, especially the orientation of celebrating Mass facing the altar or Eastwards or 'ad orientem'. This has a great psychological effect in making us take the whole liturgy seriously. It's no longer about us; it is about God. Although we are not focused on ourselves during the liturgy, we cannot ignore examining our conscience and our current state. There are several moments of great silence in the Extraordinary Form which help us to pray seriously. I think the Novus Ordo has been so badly celebrated, that the Mass has become about the people, and not about God. We vocalize many prayers in our own native language but we have forgotten the internal prayer and dialogue with God.

    The preparation and reception of Holy Communion is also another thing I like about the Extraordinary Form. It's done kneeling at the altar rail, and given to the faithful on the tongue. We not only have to worship God in the heart, but also show it through our bodies. I'm not convinced when many people say that "It's the heart that counts, the exterior doesn't matter." To me, it's simply not practicing what we preach. What is the point of teaching reverence but not putting it into action? The rubrics of the Extraordinary Form are very consistent and insistent on reverence, and offers us discipline which is sorely lacking nowadays.
     
  15. @DeProfundis very well said! I agree 100% in reverence. If the Eucharist is Jesus fully present, I honestly wonder why full prostrastion is not nessecary. Ive read that some saints that would perform adoration in this way.

    I changed to reception of communion on the tongue exclusively regardless of the type of mass. I was raise receiving it on the hand most of my life life though.
     
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  16. The sad issue with most Catholics is we’ve become Protestantized in our rubrics; meaning the outward expression of our liturgy does not reflect accurately the spiritual realities that are taking place before our eyes. Part of this is because most Catholics do not know their own history and the other part is the heretical position that we can “understand” the Mass; which is impossible since the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is considered a mystery by the Church.

    Heck, how many Catholics even know the official position of Latin and its importance to the Church? How many Catholics know that the Church took Latin as its own language therefore making it Sacred?



    How many Catholics in the Latin Rite fully prepare for the reality that when they go to Mass they are actually and truly present on Golgotha? How many of us let that sink in? Grab your bible and turn to the Gospels. Flip to the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and then think about the fact that you are there each the you attend Mass! In fact read the entire Gospel since everything from Incarnation to Resurrection is there too! Did you know that you can point to the Passion narrative and say “I was there” if you’ve gone to even just one Mass? Then ask yourself, does the Liturgy I attend every Sunday reflect that reality?
     
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  17. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    The older prayers are so much better. The words are precise and full of meaning. They were worked out over centuries rather than being drawn up in a few years by bureaucrats. One simple example is the blessing of holy water. The older blessing included exorcisms and made you think the priest was serious about turning ordinary water into a sacramental or a means of grace.

    Even the Anglicans know this. Their wedding vows include, ‘With my body I thee worship’.
     
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  18. Breadman

    Breadman Fapstronaut

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    I think the Latin mass worked when we had Catholic cultures, and Catholic ethnic communities but I fear if it were still in Latin it would seem like an exclusive club and converts or those not raised in the faith would never find us. Mind you I think it’s beautiful but I think Vatican2 was the correct way to go.
     
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  19. But the way it is now isn’t the way the Vatican 2 council wanted it. The council said Latin was to have pride of place in the Latin Rite Liturgy (Wow Latin in the Latin Rite? What a concept). Yet in what possible way has that been upheld? A return to Latin in the liturgy would be in accordance with the wishes and desire of the council. What we have now is, IMO, an abuse of the permissions given to bishops. Much like the how the permission to use Eucharistic Ministers is abused constantly; since they are only to be used when Masses are crowded.

    I would also argue that people have a hard time finding us as we are now because they see absolutely no difference in our liturgy compared to the others around us. Giving Catholicism that mark of being something different and unique to the rest of the others is exactly what we should be striving for, not against. Likewise we are called to create a Catholic Culture so since the OF as it is now isn’t conducive to that end then maybe we should go back to what V2 originally called for and desired!

    Actually according to the documents Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place in the liturgy and Latin itself is to be retained in the Latin Rites. Retained means kept in; not done away with.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2019
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  20. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    This is exactly what happens if you stumble upon a Spanish Mass in the US. Unless you are Hispanic you feel a bit out of place since the language and music is not your own.

    The Mass in the early days was reserved for Christians. As I recall those who weren’t Christians were excluded from the entirety of the Liturgy. The exception was catechumens we’re allowed to stay for the Liturgy of the Word, but dismissed before the Eucharist. The modern RCIA process does this.

    So the Mass wasn’t seen as an evangelical opportunity. You were evangelized and then came to Mass. Personally a lot of modern Catholic Liturgy turns me off of the Catholic Church. I endure it because I believe she is the True Church. But I find she attempts a poor imitation of high Methodism.
     

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