1. Welcome to NoFap! We have disabled new forum accounts from being registered for the time being. In the meantime, you can join our weekly accountability groups.
    Dismiss Notice

I'm a 41 year old male and I freaking love The Bachelor/Bachelorette

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by SuperFan, May 14, 2019.

  1. Khufu

    Khufu Fapstronaut

    898
    40,395
    123
    My Journal
    do you talk to your female co workers the next day about last nights episode an talk about what shouldve been picked
     
  2. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I've definitely been watching, and I think Hannah has been a far better example of a Christian than Luke P. has been. Luke has been full of envy, jealousy, and downright deception and lies.

    And women do have the freedom and right to do whatever they want with their bodies. God himself has given them that freedom. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't suffer the consequences when they sin sexually. Now, if Hannah is indeed claiming that she can do whatever she wants because of grace, well ... Romans 6 has something to say about that.

    I've done far more extreme things, sexually, than having sex twice in a windmill. And I did those things as a professing Christian who knew better. And, like Hannah, Jesus still loves me. It doesn't excuse the decision, and it doesn't mean I didn't sin ... but every believer experiences the wrestling match between the flesh and the spirit. Luke should know this, so to shame Hannah for it just felt like the height of hypocrisy.

    I was particularly furious with Luke P. about the sex talk. The truth is, Luke was only using his beliefs as the excuse to bring it up. The real reason he doesn't want her sleeping with anyone else is because he's unbelievably insecure and possessive. All season, Luke's basically been allergic to clothing around Hannah, showing off his body, trading massages, making out, etc. etc. as often as he can. If she'd been willing to sleep with him in the fantasy suite, he would have done it. If he'd gone naked bungee jumping with Hannah, he'd have eaten it up and made sure all the other guys knew about it. But when she did that with Garrett, he totally lost his mind.

    Plus, Luke is a fairly new Christian. Before what I call his "Shower In Damascus" experience, Luke was banging every woman who wanted him--which, according to him, was quite a lot. Now that he's had some kind of spiritual encounter, he expects Hannah to have the same conviction as he does, and that's just not real life.

    Watch ... when this airs next Monday, and when we see the entire conversation in its full context, you'll see what I'm talking about. Luke P. will draw his line in the sand, and Hannah will go ballistic. But instead of standing his ground and defending what he believes, he'll try to "re-explain" or talk about how Hannah "misinterpreted" him ... he'll backtrack and make excuses and say whatever he can to keep from getting sent home. That's how he's acted since episode 1. Screw that guy.
     
  3. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I can't really judge you... I've been watching a lot of jake paul and tana mongeau recently :(

    ... This is a judgment free zone :p
     
  4. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    ^^^ What she said.
     
  5. If by "freedom" you simply mean "free will," then sure. But that's not what people usually mean by "freedom." In this context, "freedom" means "permission." God has absolutely not given women, or anyone, permission to do whatever they want with their bodies.

    That is absolutely what she is saying

    I mean, I don't think Luke is a great guy either. But that doesn't excuse Hannah's behavior. I'm not really interested in arguing over who is worse. Especially because most of society agrees that Luke is in the wrong for those things, but they do NOT agree that Hannah is in the wrong for anything. That's what bothers me.

    Of course Jesus still loves us when we sin, but there is a difference between him loving you and him approving of tour actions.

    I totally don't understand how Luke's statements against Hannah are "shaming" her. If he was actually just shaming her for doing something wrong, then yes, that would be hypocritical. But how has he done that? As far as we have seen, all he says is that he wouldn't want to marry her if she's having sex with the other guys. That's not shaming her. He didn't seem hateful or shaming to me at all. Pointing out that someone is sinning and that you don't approve of it is not "shaming" them.

    I don't see how you have any ground to make that judgement of him. He has openly talked in front of his own friends and family on the show about his past sins and how he has been called by God to leave that life behind him. For him to go marry a woman who thinks sex before marriage is totally fine, would be like a recovering drug addict marrying a drug addict who is currently using. It would be extremely unwise. I, for one, would never want to marry a man who thinks sex before marriage is okay, because I don't, and that would only be a conflict and temptation to sin. Is that not reasonable?

    And did he judge her for making out with the guys, wearing bikinis, etc? No, he didn't. He hasn't "judged" her for anything that he is currently doing. There's nothing hypocritical about any of the concerns he's had about her behavior.

    Again, you have no ground to make that judgement. You have no idea what he would have done. He says repeatedly that he is not okay with that, so you assuming he is lying is just your own blind assumption.

    How can you argue that as a Christian? He took the plank out of his own eye, in that area of his life, and now he sees clearly to hekp remove the speck from his sister's eye. That's literally what we are called to do as Christians. Yiu are being ironically judgemental of Luke in this entire comment, making tons of assumptions about him and also judging him for being a new Christian. I don't think God tells us not to listen to truth if the truth us coming out of the mouth of a "new Christian." On the contrary, oftentimes new Christians see more clearly, because the grace and redemption of God is so powerful in their lives at that time, that they can inspire and remind us old Christians to remember truth.

    Regardless of when or how Luke came to the faith, his message is that sexual sin is wrong, and that is 100% true. Hannah should know that, and instead she preaches that she can do whatever she wants because God will just forgive her. It's an abuse of His grace.

    You're way too focused on hating Luke, so much so that you are dismissing the importance of the truth he's speaking. I don't really like Luke either, but who cares? What Hannah is doing is wrong, and he is completely within his right (one could even argue his duty) as a Christian to correct her.

    I'm honestly surprised you disagree with this.

    I'm not trying to argue that people should like Luke. I'm just shocked that a Christian woman is so sexually expressive and open on this show, and seems to think she can just do whatever she wants and God will just forgive her, even if she doesn't repent or even recognize her sin, and when a Christian man says "that's not right" everyone - Christians included - looses their minds. I don't get that at all. I mean, if it was Jed or Peter confronting Hannah about this, would people feel differently? I doubt it. I think they would still whine about how women can do whatever they want.
     
    MLMVSS and Deleted Account like this.
  6. MLMVSS

    MLMVSS Fapstronaut

    611
    7,572
    123
    Also, following what God commands leads to freedom, because being morally clean is being free. Not being a murderer is better than committing murder. Not having pre-marital sex is better than having it. Less heartache and less pain in all those cases. That’s what all the commandments we’ve received are for: not to chain us, but to avoid such chains. It’s almost poetic in a sense.
     
  7. Absolutely!
     
    MLMVSS likes this.
  8. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Yes, that's what I mean.

    My point is that he seems awfully focused on the sin of premarital sex. But lies? Deceiving people to their faces? Mountains of pride? Body-slamming someone half his size? It's as if God spoke to him and said, "Luke, stop sleeping around ... but feel free to continue being a self-absorbed prick." The way he's treated people this season isn't remotely Christ-like.

    And yeah, I can admit that this feels somewhat personal. Luke is a perfect representation of every guy I hated in high school and college--the attractive jock who got all the women despite being a narcissistic jerk, but who gets all kinds of glowing admiration for checking the "I love Jesus" box. I'm self-aware enough to recognize my serious bitterness toward those guys, and Luke is playing that role to a perfect pitch.

    Did you miss the episode where he confronted her about her naked bungee jump with Garrett? He passive-aggressively forgave her for her "boneheaded mistake" and said she had basically cheated on him. Then when she goes back to him the next day, upset about how that conversation went down, he totally backtracks and gaslights her. His threshold for what's appropriate and what isn't seems very convenient. He accuses the other guys of being disrespectful, when he's been nothing but manipulative to them--and Hannah for that matter.

    It's the way he did it. He made an ultimatum--'if you have sex, I'm out.' For a guy who's watched this show, and who understands exactly what the fantasy suites are, and who is apparently so convicted about premarital sex, are we actually going to believe he's only just now bringing the topic? But I suspect he didn't bring it up earlier because it would have ended with him being sent home.

    I'm telling you--just watch. Hannah's going to kick him to the curb after that conversation, and then I promise you, he'll attempt some dramatic stunt to get her to take him back, just like he's done time and time again. He'll say she misunderstood him, that's not what he meant, blah blah blah. This isn't about sexual purity. This is about Luke's pride, which is threatened anytime Hannah smiles in another man's direction.

    My biggest frustration with Luke is that the world looks at people like him--boldly professing Christ with his words while treating people like garbage--and says, "if that's Christianity, I want no part of it." Not once has he apologized to any of the other guys for how he's treated them, because he honestly doesn't think he's done anything wrong. I'll be shocked if he apologizes to the other guys in the men's tell all, and if he does, I suspect it will be in some backhanded way where he excuses it as "just protecting Hannah's honor" or something.
     
  9. I agree. I never claimed that Luke has acted Christ-like in every area.

    It seems kind of odd to me to be self aware enough to say you're bitter and biased, but not to say that it's wrong of you to judge someone based on your own bitterness and bias.

    Oh my gosh, dude. He did not say that. He said that if she hypothetically made some Bone-headed mistake in the future, he would still love and support her if she admitted it was wrong. He didn't say that her going bungee jumping was a "bone headed mistake."

    And personally, I wouldn't have been comfortable in his position with that either. I'm honestly surprised more guys didn't find it wrong. When Ben Flajnik went skinny dipping eith Cournety in his season, everyone was super quick to call him a shallow man whore. Why the double standard?

    Also, he said that he felt the same way one might feel if they had been cheated on. I think it's really crappy to act like saying that was wrong on his part. Is h not allowed to tell her how he feels? He's not allowed to have feelings, or he should just bottle them up? How is that better? He was honest about how it made him feel, and he wasn't mean about it.

    I didn't see it that way at all. But you seem pretty convinced that you're 100% right about him, so I don't see the point in explaining what he said and why it made perfect sense.

    Sounds perfectly appropriate to me, if you are a Christian who doesn't want to marry someone who is totally fine with premarital sex. I have basically had that same standard for every guy I've ever dated. Is that wrong of me? Of course not. Why is he not allowed to have standards?

    Maybe he didn't bring it up sooner because it's an intimate subject and they didn't know each other yet. That seems perfectly reasonable. Again, you're making judgements completely out of thin air.

    And don't give me some bs about fantasy suites. Christians are supposed to be chrsitians whether they are in a fantasy suite or not. Sean Lowe didn't have a problem with that. Neither did Desiree or Emily Maynard. Nobody is forcing them to have sex in the fantasy suites.

    More blind judgements.

    I do think it's fairly obvious that Luke is painfully insecure, but what I don't understand is why that makes people so aggressive hateful toward him. If anything, it's kind of sad. He clearly has some issues. But I don't think it's fair to say that this is "not about sexual purity," when he has talked about his own feelings about sexual purity many times. You said before that he hasn't brought this up, but I don't even think that's accurate. He's talked about sexual purity tons of times. And honestly, knowing how hannah feels about the subject, I'm surprised she didn't tell him sooner "hey, by the way, I don't think there's anything wrong with sex outside of marriage." I think she should have said that way sooner.

    I agree, and as I've said, I think there are a lot of negative things about Luke and ways he hasn't behaved well. I just think for most people it seems to be all of nothing. Like everyone just completely hates his guts, and you yourself have all these negative judgements you're making about him that are completely contrary to what he says he believes. And that's not fair. We have seen so so so many times this show give people a villainous edit, and I think it's naive to not give him at least the benefit of the doubt.

    I mean for example, I agree that the situation with him body slamming that other guy was totally wrong. But the show portrayed the exact same level of "evil, sinister villain vibes" when Luke told Hannah he wasn't comfortable with her doing the bungee jumping thing. How are those at all equivalent? They aren't. There was absolutely nothing wrong with him telling her how he felt about that, and he shouldn't be made a villain for it. Sure, go ahead and think he's wrong for all the horrible things he's done, but don't paint every single breath he breathes as some kind of evil, manipulative thing. He isn't some psychopathic horrible human being.
     
  10. I think Luke has done a lot of negative things, but I also think there have been times when the guys have bullied him and completely overreacted to things that weren't negative at all. Luke talking to Hannah about her behavior on the bungee jumping date had nothing to do with Garrett or the other men, and they freaked out and told him to "stay in his lane." He was in his lane. That was between him and his relationship with hannah. The other guys were the ones butting into their relationship.

    If I am uncomfortable, morally, with a decision my partner made with someone else, I had every right to tell them how I feel and have a conversation about it, and it's none of anyone else's business. I don't understand why people don't see how that translates to Luke talking to Hannah about his feelings. I guess y'all just want him to be perfectly fine with her being naked pressed up against some other dude, and with her having sex with the other guys. Or if he's not fine with it, he's just supposed to keep his mouth shut, because heaven forbid he think "maybe this girl isn't for me if she acts like this." It'a ridiculous. He's allowed to have standards, and to disagree with choices she makes and voice his concerns. That's how a relationship works. And if you try to do that and the other person freaks out and gets offended and tells you you have no right to judge or question them, run. Run far away and find a more reasonable person to be with.
     
  11. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I'm not judging the man, I'm judging his behavior. There's a difference.

    Hypocrisy doesn't just exist on a topic-by-topic basis. Luke hasn't simply taken the "sexual plank" out of his own eye. He's trying to point out a speck in Hannah's, while he still has the planks of selfishness, narcissism, and pride obstructing his view. It would be one thing if Luke were to say, "hey look, I recognize that I'm prideful and have some deep-seated narcissism. I don't like that about myself, and I'm working on it." Then at least I'd have some sympathy when he tries to steer Hannah in a holy direction. But the way he's approaching everything now reminds me of the Christian who's gluttonous, envious, and greedy, but tries to tell gays about how they're sinning. It just rings very, very hollow to me. He comes off like a Pharisee, concerned with outward behaviors but ignoring matters of inner character.

    It was a passive-aggressive way of calling her decision bone-headed. He was speaking about a hypothetical that would be analogous to the bungee jump.

    This is true, and as a professional video person, I can appreciate that edits can be biased. At the same time, however, editors can only work with what they're given, and Luke has given them an awful lot. Painting him as the villain hasn't exactly been a chore for those editors.

    I think the next episode will tell you a lot about Luke, if it hasn't already been made evident. So far, each time he and Hannah have had serious friction, Luke comes back and finds some way to gaslight her. "That's not what I said / that's not what I meant / you've misinterpreted me / let me re-explain" ... he'll do it again, because that's who he is. But I think at this point, Hannah will see through it and will have had enough.

    EDIT: I realize that when I say "that's who he is", it sounds like I'm definitely judging him as a person. What I mean is that he has a very obvious pattern of behavior, driven by character flaws that appear to be not only deep-set, but unrecognized by him.


    In the world of normal relationships, yes, absolutely. But this is the Bachelorette. Luke signed up for this. He knew he'd be dating a woman who would be dating (and kissing, and making out with) numerous other guys. And in that situation, you'd have to be consistent--either the conversation about your feelings is everyone else's business, or what happens on the other dates is none of your business. It's not really fair to say, "I really don't like what you did with so-and-so on your date, and here's why, and by the way, let's keep this conversation to ourselves."
     
  12. No, you're not just judging his behavior. You've said a ton of things about how you think he will behave or how you think he believes or feels or thinks. That's judging the man, not his behavior.

    That's your opinion. I genuinely didn't think that was what he meant at all. I thought he was speaking hypothetically, and when he explained himself later he said he was speaking hypothetically. So... again, you're just making assumptions.

    You call that "gaslighting." I call that being bad at communication. I am married to a man who is often terrible at communicating what he thinks or how he feels. He says things that sound utterly ridiculous and offensive to me, and then later, after some pressing from me, explains himself in a different way that makes me say "oh, okay. That makes more sense. Because you sounded crazy earlier." Now, I could respond by giving him the benefit of the doubt and letting him explain himself, or I could stubbornly decide that

    It's just a matter of perspective. I didn't see that second conversation as him "gaslighting" her at all. I think she did misunderstand him, because he didn't communicate well. He also apologized for speaking his mind before asking her perspective on the situation, and I think that was the reason for the miscommunication. He came in hot, and then she said "I didn't see it as a sexual thing, it was just an experience I wanted to have for myself." And I think that made him think "oh, okay, well if that's true, then I feel differently about it." And therefore everything he said prior to her explaining her perspective no longer applied.

    I think to simply say he was "gaslighting her" is ignoring a whole lot of possibilities, given the nuance of conversation and how difficult the situation they're in is and the fact that some people aren't good at explaining themselves. I feel like your instinct is to view him as a villain in everything, rather than giving him any kind of benefit of the doubt and saying maybe the dude just sucks at communication. Lots of men suck at that. I'm pretty sure he even said in that conversation that he's not very good at expressing himself sometimes.

    I noticed you left off "having sex with." You're talking about stuff he has never even had a problem with. Has he ever told Hannah she can't date, kiss, or make out with other men? No. He drew the line at nude bungee jumping, and sex, which I personally think is incredibly reasonable. There have been many past bachelors and bachelorettes who have refused to do those things, so no, I don't think he has to "expect" her to bungee jump naked with a naked guy pressed up against her. Nor does he have to "expect" her to have sex with the guys. Nobody is forcing that. Again, the "this is the bachelorette, so real life rules don't apply" is complete nonsense. She is responsible for her moral behavior whether she is on a TV show or not.

    What on earth are you talking about? Of course that's fair. Because it had nothing to do with Garrett or "what they did on their date." The problem he had was with a moral decision that his girlfriend made, and that is between him and his girlfriend. It has nothing to do with the other guys, just because it happened to occur while she was on a date with one of them.

    If she had snorted cocaine on a date and he wanted to privately discuss with her that she shouldn't have done that, would that suddenly be everyone else's business? No, obviously not. Because it has nothing to do with the other guys. It has to do with her behavior, and her moral judgement, which effects him if he is going to be considering marrying this person. He doesn't care if Garrett snorted cocaine, he cares that she did, because it is something he considers morally wrong and he isn't sure if he wants to marry someone who has a different set of moral standards than him. How is that anyone's business but theirs?

    This is not the same thing as him going to her and saying "so-and-so said something rude when you weren't here." That's about the men's behavior, and it involves them. This was about Hannah's behavior, and there's no reason any of the other men needed to be involved. It had nothing to do with them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2019
  13. I wanna be clear, I don't like Luke very much, and I would never ever date him. He's shown a lot of red flags. I think he has a lot of flaws. I just don't think that him disapproving of Hannah bungee jumping naked with Garrett and having sex with the other guys is one of them. And I think he was perfectly reasonable to talk to her about both of those things, and make it clear that he didn't approve of them. There's nothing wrong with that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2019
  14. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    We'll see if I'm right on Monday. But I virtually guarantee he comes back for her with some grand gesture or attempt to re-explain himself.

    Remember when Luke S. asked Luke P. his opinion on whether or not he was there for the right reasons? Luke P. said, "yes." Luke P. was then challenged about whether or not he'd share that with Hannah, and he said he would. Then he went directly to Hannah, did exactly the opposite thing, threw Luke S. under the bus, and then came back as if he'd done nothing wrong. When he got called out for it, he deflected, defended, and pretended he didn't actually do what he did. At 2:45, Luke P. says, "I don't believe you are" (here for the right reasons) ... when just a few minutes earlier, he told Luke S. he thought he was there for the right reasons, and said he'd share that with Hannah. Literally all the other guys recognized what he did and called him out for it. Here's the clip, just as a refresher:



    That's not sucking at communication. That's being an awful, manipulative, and deceptive person. If Luke wasn't showing those signs in literally every episode, then I'd be a lot more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. You're looking at his interactions with Hannah as if they're happening in a vacuum, when he's shown his broader character multiple times in other situations. When I look at how he's conducted himself the entire season, it's hard not to see what he's doing with her as gaslighting.
     
  15. Uh... no, we won't. You've made judgements about how he feels and what he thinks, despite him saying the exact opposite. You can't prove any of that, and Monday won't change that. But okay.

    I don't need a refresher. I remember, and yeah, that was crappy. It also has nothing to do with anything I said.

    I'm not looking at it in a vacuum. I just disagree with you. Just because someone does bad things doesn't mean they are always constantly being manipulative and insane. And I don't believe he was being manipulative at all or "gaslighting" in the other situation. We will just have to agree to disagree, I guess.
     
  16. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    It's one of at least six instances where he knowingly, explicitly lied to either Hannah or the other guys. I don't know why you defend him as much as you do.
     
  17. I defend his right to have moral standards and not want to date someone who has completely different moral standards than him. Because everybody should have that right. Whether or not he is a good person or a lying lunatic is irrelevant.
     
  18. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I just think it's rich for him to be all outspoken about sexual purity when he's spent the entire season taking his clothes off, showing his body, and leading with his sexuality--and seems 100% oblivious to how inconsistent that is. And that's to say nothing of his repeated lies and manipulations.

    It makes no difference, though, since his final horcrux will finally be destroyed tonight.
     
  19. I really don't understand why people keep saying this. I haven't seen any of this at all. When has he been leading with sexuality and walking around half naked all the time? If you're talking about the group date where they were in speedos, that's not fair, because everybody was doing that, it's not like he just chose to put on a speedo for fun or something. And I doubt you would say all the guys are walking around half naked all the time, just because they participated in that date. You only say it about Luke, because you don't like him.

    Also, as I said before, you comparing apples and oranges. He has never once criticized Hannah for anything he is doing. He has never criticized her for being sexual, for making out with guys, for wearing a bikini, etc. Never. Believing that sex and nudity should be saved for marriage is a completely different issue. That's where he draws the line, apparently, and he has been perfectly consistent in that, and not hypocritical at all. Has he been naked with her? Has he had sex with her? No. So there's nothing hypocritical about him saying he believes those things are wrong.
     
  20. I'm just honestly shocked that you, as a Christian, can't at the very least admit that he has every right to believe that sex and nudity should be saved for marriage, and to be uncomfortable with finding out that the person he's dating doesn't agree with that.

    You can hate Luke all you want, but I don't understand why you have an issue with that. It's perfectly Biblical. And honestly, I think if the genders were reversed and it was a Bachelor acting so promiscuous and a woman having a problem with it, nobody would be on his side. Everybody would agree that she should go find someone else if she doesn't want to be with someone so promiscuous, and nobody would fault her for that. And I don't even have to guess that that would be the case, because it happened with Ben Flajnik. When he went skinny dipping eith Courntey, NOBODY was on his side and supporting his right to do whatever he wants with his body. Everybody just called him a man whore and hated him, and nobody was condemning the other women for having a problem with his behavior.

    Fault him for all the other crap he's done, sure, but you can't fault him for being uncomfortable with his girlfriend doing things he thinks are morally wrong. It's perfectly reasonable, and he has every right to talk to her about it.
     

Share This Page