Catholicism,Calvinism,Reformed Theology & Addiction Debate

You might think it’s erring on the side of caution but some might call it scrupulosity.

 

Okay, good start. I agree.

I'm already lost, here. Isn't it because man is dead in sin that he must initiate his relationship with Christ? I agree that God knows who He would save even from the beginning, but I don't understand how this election is unconditional. What about righteousness: The walking in faith, by acceptance in Christ, after recognizing the death brought by sin, the necissity of repentance of that sin, and the knowledge that such death requires a Savior. I think the recognition, the repentance and the striving thereafter count as conditions, no?

I think election makes sense because even though theoretically anyone can be saved only God knows who will ultimately follow through. So, this makes sense to me.

Good, I agree.

I agree, as long as "saint" here means those saved in Christ and election. I don't acknowledge the Catholic practice of patronism.

So, that's all interesting. And you wrote before that Calvinists only consider baptism a sacrement? I'm not sure about that. I think Jesus speaking to Nicodemus makes it clear you need baptism. I first read that passage in John 5 (4-8) and it made sense to me.

 

Well, "once saved, once saved," is how I would phrase it. You can only initiate your feet down the path, but only God knows your heart. If you strive genuinely only then are you saved, but that is affirmation that only God can give, not one man can attain; yet studying in Scripture, doing works, repenting of sins and continually renewing faith in Christ are all things that can keep one in the net of salvation, I think.

 

Well put Ethan. I think the same since I don’t view salvation in only a past tense but as past, present, and future. While salvation is freely given by Christ it can likewise be freely forfeited by our refusal to remain with Christ (John 15:6).

 

Being ordered to do something is not a good definition of a sacrament. I cant let you slide with that!

 

But that's the point! The true converted ones will remain with Christ: "Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God" - 2 Corinthians 1:21 ; "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" - John 6:39; "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" - 1 John 2:19.

 

Feel good cool worship and hymns are just as crap as each other.

This is the best worship song

 

Do you still sin? Is it your belief that you get to sin now with impunity? Is your cozy belief of salvation held by Paul (Philippians 2:12)? Why would someone need to “workout their salvation in fear and trembling” if it was a done deal?

Yes. God is in control of everything but our ability to choose; hence free will. If we cannot freely forfeit salvation even after receiving it as a gift then we’re not truly free to make a choice in the matter.

 

If only God chooses then we are not truly free and there is no one actually loving God since love is not forced. This would mean God is also unjust for sending beings with no choice to a place of punishment.

Ironically your belief is somewhat hypocritical in that you believe we have free will (the choice to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior) but after that you don’t believe we have free will? So in the beginning Gods grace cant be forced but then after our first acceptance God’s grace is forced and cannot be rejected or forfeited? Interesting. Is there any gift that has ever worked like that?

Calvinism:

God: here’s my gift, you are free to accept it or leave it.

Person: I choose to accept it.

God: Good. Oh btw now you can never get rid of it.

Person: What?

God: I’m forcing you to keep it.

Person: Forcing me?

God: Yes, forcing you. You no longer have a choice in the matter of whether you continue to keep this gift.

Person: How is it a gift then? How is it a sign of my love for you if I have no choice in how I take care of your gift?

God: Don’t think about that.

 

Because these pagan rituals are the exact rituals that Jehova told you to abstain from, duh.

"These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the Lord God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. 2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. 4 Ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 12: 1-4

God consistently warned and punished the Isrealites for refusing to stay away from the same pagan rituals that you are trying so hard to defend. God tells us preciesely how to worship and be saved so common sense should tell anyone that its wrong to appropriate the same pagan customs that got believers in trouble in the first place.

Paul spent half his ministry warning the new Christian who had come out of the Roman church to abstain from pagan customs. He states it very plainly and clearly.

19Am I suggesting, then, that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No,but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons,not to God. And I do not want you to be participantswith demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot partake in the table of the Lord and the table of demons too.… 1 Corinthians 10:19

Why would you celebrate holidays that are adapted from Pagan rituals that include phallic worship, orgies, drug use and pedophelia and expect God to bless you when all the prophets from the old and the new testament expressly tells you not to?

Yall really do love that paganism.

 

Yes, he has been tasked to be a leader, like the other Apostles would have to be. Yet nowhere is said in the Bible that Peter is superior over the other Apostles and with superior authority over them; nevertheless he even was opposed by St Paul in Galatians 2:11-14.

 

So you agree he’s tasked with being a leader but then you add “like the rest of them”, but ignore that Christ didn’t mention praying for the rest of them like He did for Peter. Interesting.

I’m so happy you brought up Galatians 2:11-14. I’m sure you’re thinking this instance shows Paul teaching Peter but you would be incorrect. You see reading Acts 15 will give you the correct context on the incident in Galatians. In Galatians Paul isn’t instructing Peter on something he didn’t already know. Basically Paul is telling Peter to practice what he preached as the Leader of the Church:

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” —Acts 15:6-11

Notice how all of the Apostles met but when it comes down to give the definitive answer on the Churches position only Peter spoke. Please keep in mind the belief that the pope is infallible only extends to doctrine. It does not mean he is impeccable, which is the inability to sin or make the wrong choice. You see Paul was rebuking Peter for not upholding what he had earlier proclaimed infallibly at the Council in Jerusalem.

Peter unfortunately didn’t have a great track record when it came to pressure. I mean he folded when a servant girls asked him if he knew Christ during his passion. Paul is mad at Peter for doing it again when some of the newly converted Jewish brethren were trying to keep the mosaic law and have it apply to gentiles.

 

It's my understand from the T in TULIP we cant even accept the gift.

Like a person drowning can reach out and grab a life jacket thrown to him. As totally depraved we lay dead at the bottom of the deep end incapable of accepting the life jacket bobbing on the surface.

 

You’re right but looking back I think that falls under the “I” part. Which means there is no free will and no true act of love on our part towards God.

God: I choose you to be part of the elect!

Person: Thanks but no thanks.

God: Tough cookies, pal. You’re in the group like it or not.

Person: I have to be in a relationship with you against my consent?

God: Yes, but only if I want you to be.

Person:

 

Do you think that this is good solution? I am afraid that I can lose my salvation, so I break away from my church that has been around from the very beginning, make my own one and declare that it´s all decided in advance, therefore I cannot stop being saved - problem solved!
Sorry, but that seems rather like cowardly and unnecessarily reckless solution to me...

 

Fallen man steeped in total depravity clinging to a belief that lets him sin with impunity?